Last month of trying before CIO, some questions....

[.Mrs.B.]

.

 

[Mrs.B.]

I can only share what we have done. Elyssa sleeps through the night as of the day she turned 7 months.

We do not rock, only if she is really upset. If she is just whingey we sit with her. I read that a baby wakes expecting to be in the same situation tat the were first put to sleep in, for this, baby should fall asleep in his/her cot and not in your arms. So we do this too.

We fed when she woke up, however she would only wake up twice maximum after we had gone to bed. She would settle straight away after the bottle.

I don't leave her to cry though so can't help with that xx

 

[Wishing_well]

I don't have long to reply (ill reply better later) but I just wanted to say that CIO is not guaranteed to make him sleep through the night and its actually shown that they will have greater sleep regressions later on - kinda like he stores it all up and then massively regresses.
I'm against it so can't help with that.

As for comforting him, I'd try and do it in the cot but if he's really upset take him out, do what you need to do and then put him down before he's asleep. As PP said, they tend to wake up looking for whatever got them to sleep in the first place. (I'm currently trying to break my daughters feeding o sleep habit).

 

[BabyGirl999]

I would actually try moving his bed time to 7pm. If they are over tired it can cause them to wake more during the night. My LO is 10 months and is so tired by 7pm. Worth a try! And poor you, I know how hard it is.

 

[Noelle610]

First, what's his daytime schedule like? If he's overtired, it's going to make sleep training nearly impossible. I'd work on getting that in line

1. Would it be better to comfort him in the cot when he wakes, or rock him to sleep? (He calms quicker with rocking but it can take ages to put him down again)

You should use your chosen sleep training method for night wakings.

2. Should I give him a bottle in the night and at what point? He's not waking out of hunger, just habit I'm pretty sure.

At his age, he needs 0-1 night feeds (from a nutritional standpoint). If you want to feed, I'd set a cut-off of 6 hours. Feed if he wakes after that time, but not before. Use your chosen sleep training method for other wakings.

3. Why can he self settle fine at bedtime but not during the night?

Some babies are just like that. My girl always self-settled at bedtime, but woke a lot at night. We used some gentle sleep training to curb night wakings. The key is consistency. I can't stress it enough. You must use the same response for all night wakings unless it's time to feed.

4. If I do try CIO, does this actually help babies sttn? How long does it take to work, and how would you know if they have a dirty nappy etc?

Yes, it helps babies sleep through the night. They learn to self-soothe. When they inevitably wake at night, as we all do, they know how to get themselves back to sleep without your assistance (unless something is wrong). It usually takes 3-7 days to work but only if you are consistent. With CC or CIO, I'd always do one check after 10 minutes or so to do a poop sniff or make sure your LO isn't ill. After the sleep training is complete, you'll know when they need you. My daughter rarely wakes at night and when she does it's usually because she's ill or teething.

I think this article will help you:

https://www.troublesometots.com/what-you-need-to-know-about-sleeping-through-the-night-part-i/

 

[Twister]

1. Try and comfort in the cot if you can
2. If he's definitely not hungry don't give him a bottle
3. I honestly don't know the answer to this one
4. We did controlled crying two weeks ago and have had great success with it, she went from waking hourly/2hourly and being almost impossible to resettle (sometimes she self settled at bedtime), to waking just once or twice. Whilst she's not sttn, there have been definite improvements to her sleep, and I now know that when she wakes its because she genuinely needs me and not because she can't re-settle herself back to sleep. If that's the route you want to go down at some point, I'd definitely do some research and look in to how to do it properly. I've never heard of the theory that CIO causes greater sleep regressions later on, that's news to me

 

[Noelle610]

I've never heard of the theory that CIO causes greater sleep regressions later on, that's news to me

I *think* what happens is a lack of consistency. For an even-tempered, easy-going kid, you can sleep train quickly and it just clicks. For more strong-willed babies, parents need to be consistent in their responses even after the sleep training is complete. What happens sometimes is that parents do CIO and baby starts sleeping well. Then maybe he has a small regression because he's learning to crawl/cruise/walk, which is totally normal. Instead of responding briefly - going into the nursery, patting LO's back and saying "it's time to sleep" - parents fall into old habits and rock, feed or play with LO in the middle of the night. At that point, LO starts waking again more frequently.

 

[Twister]

That makes sense Noelle, I know I've struggled with remaining consistent myself! That's the most difficult part of sleep training imo.

 

[Randianne]

I don't have long to reply (ill reply better later) but I just wanted to say that CIO is not guaranteed to make him sleep through the night and its actually shown that they will have greater sleep regressions later on - kinda like he stores it all up and then massively regresses.

Can you give us a source for that? I have read a lot about the biology of sleep training and this doesn't fit with any of it. I'd really like to see the study it came from.

 

[Noelle610]

That makes sense Noelle, I know I've struggled with remaining consistent myself! That's the most difficult part of sleep training imo.

I know, it's so hard! That's why CC/CIO tend to work "better" than no cry methods. The gentle methods do work, but it's more difficult to be consistent over a longer period of time. Just human nature.

 

[Wishing_well]

1. Try and comfort in the cot if you can
2. If he's definitely not hungry don't give him a bottle
3. I honestly don't know the answer to this one
4. We did controlled crying two weeks ago and have had great success with it, she went from waking hourly/2hourly and being almost impossible to resettle (sometimes she self settled at bedtime), to waking just once or twice. Whilst she's not sttn, there have been definite improvements to her sleep, and I now know that when she wakes its because she genuinely needs me and not because she can't re-settle herself back to sleep. If that's the route you want to go down at some point, I'd definitely do some research and look in to how to do it properly. I've never heard of the theory that CIO causes greater sleep regressions later on, that's news to me

Came up on my newsfeed the other day. (I did follow it up by reading another page -not linked- but can't find it now)

https://spoiledmum.com/to-sleep-train-or-not-to-sleep-train/


"Studies have shown that, shortly after the objective of getting the baby to sleep through the night is achieved, sleep regression often occurs as a result of a phenomenon called “extinction burst”, leading to outbursts of crying accompanied with frequent night-wakings due to the suppression of earlier cries. New developmental milestones such as crawling or teething also frequently lead to sleep regression"



Edit - Randianne, just saw your post. This isn't the source. Just something that explained it. I'm not getting into a debate about it

 

[kimberleyrobx]

DS has always been a bad sleeper. Up 3-5 x a night up for hours at a time, screaming, needy etc etc etc... I have stopped co-sleeping, stopped feeding him to sleep, moved him to his own room, stuck to a strict bedtime and routine, tried shush pat, tried pick up put down, tried leaving him in the cot, tried taking him into our bed and the list goes on. He either wakes up a lot but goes back to sleep in the cot, or wakes up screaming because he wants to be cuddled.
Anyway, he now has a bedtime of 7.30 (used to be 10pm as we wanted to get as much sleep as we could) and by the end of next month (he'll be 10 months) I'm going to let him CIO if he is not improving. Anyway, I'm not looking for loads of advice I just have a few questions that I need clearing up...

1. Would it be better to comfort him in the cot when he wakes, or rock him to sleep? (He calms quicker with rocking but it can take ages to put him down again)

2. Should I give him a bottle in the night and at what point? He's not waking out of hunger, just habit I'm pretty sure.

3. Why can he self settle fine at bedtime but not during the night?

4. If I do try CIO, does this actually help babies sttn? How long does it take to work, and how would you know if they have a dirty nappy etc?

Thanks for reading

Emily got up once during the night for a bottle. It took us three nights of CIO to get her to self settle herself to sleep at bedtime. We'd give her a bottle of warm milk and take her to bed... As for the dirty nappies i really cant say because emily has a habit of waking around 4-5am and doing her business then going back to sleep so she rarely woke up with a clean bum xx

 

[Noelle610]

1. Try and comfort in the cot if you can
2. If he's definitely not hungry don't give him a bottle
3. I honestly don't know the answer to this one
4. We did controlled crying two weeks ago and have had great success with it, she went from waking hourly/2hourly and being almost impossible to resettle (sometimes she self settled at bedtime), to waking just once or twice. Whilst she's not sttn, there have been definite improvements to her sleep, and I now know that when she wakes its because she genuinely needs me and not because she can't re-settle herself back to sleep. If that's the route you want to go down at some point, I'd definitely do some research and look in to how to do it properly. I've never heard of the theory that CIO causes greater sleep regressions later on, that's news to me

Came up on my newsfeed the other day. (I did follow it up by reading another page -not linked- but can't find it now)

https://spoiledmum.com/to-sleep-train-or-not-to-sleep-train/


"Studies have shown that, shortly after the objective of getting the baby to sleep through the night is achieved, sleep regression often occurs as a result of a phenomenon called “extinction burst”, leading to outbursts of crying accompanied with frequent night-wakings due to the suppression of earlier cries. New developmental milestones such as crawling or teething also frequently lead to sleep regression"



Edit - Randianne, just saw your post. This isn't the source. Just something that explained it. I'm not getting into a debate about it

Extinction burst exists, but it's only temporary. Here's some additional info on it. If parents continue to be consistent, it passes as well.

https://www.troublesometots.com/extinction-burst/

What is An Extinction Burst?Sleep training via CIO is a method to break out of unhealthy sleep habits by forcing the issue because those habits are keeping everybody awake. It is essentially a form of “extinction therapy” where you are working to make the undesirable behavior (up all night) become extinct by no longer rewarding/reinforcing it. In this case the “reward” is you nursing, popping in the pacifier, rocking to sleep, etc. all night long. And for roughly 70% of you it will be amazingly effective.

However for the remaining 30% of you, your child will amp up the crying. Or take a break for a few days and then resume the crying. This is an extinction burst, which basically means that your child is doing even MORE of the behavior you are trying to extinguish now that you have removed the reinforcer.

Awesome right?

So what do you do about this? You have two choices:


1Do nothing.
Let your child cry through the burst. Don’t go back to the rocking, nursing, pacifier use that prompted this. Put the cork back in the champaign bottle and wait it out. It’ll pass.
2Accept chronic sleep deprivation as a way of life.
Go back to what you were doing. Nobody will sleep and it won’t get better for a long, long time. But you’ll avoid a night or two of extinction burst crying.

(Hint: I’m really hoping you choose option #1)

Also file the idea of extinction bursts away for future reference because this is not the last time you’re going to see it. Temper tantrums, whining, demands for (treats, toys, McDonalds), are all behaviors that are prone to extinction bursts.

For example, your child whines for a cookie every time you go to the grocery store. The first few times you give her a cookie because really, it’s just a cookie right? Then you realize you have your own personal Cookie Monster who is now demanding a cookie every time you pop in for a gallon of milk. So you calmly explain that cookies aren’t everyday food and you’re not going to buy them anymore.

Will your child quietly acquiesce? Give you a hug and thank you for being such a thoughtful parent? Or will they go from whining to SCREAMING. And if screaming doesn’t work, how about adding on some THROWING? Or (God save you) SPITTING and BITING? You power through the tantrum and get a few quiet weeks of grocery trips and think (phew!) that’s over with. Only to have the cookie fight start anew.

That’s the joyous experience of the extinction burst. And with every burst you face, you’ll have the same parenting choice that I outlined above. And in every instance I hope you choose #1.

Every single time.

Whether your baby is STTN as a result of being sleep trained or just on their own, it isn't a guarantee that they'll never wake again. That wouldn't be realistic.

 

[Noelle610]

What I find frustrating about most anti sleep training articles are quotes like this:

Research conducted by Wendy Middlemiss from the University of North Texas[5] have also shown that prolonged maternal non-responsiveness is associated with continued high level of infant stress, which is problematic as their physiological stress responses are developing in that first year. Chronic stress can cause infants to develop an overactive stress response system, which can result in later difficulties regulating social and behaviour responses, such as attention disorders, anti-social behaviour and possibly even obesity. The study found that during sleep training, babies may no longer cry at night even when they are distressed, which results in a disconnect between the baby and its mother. As Dr Sears, a renowned pediatrician, says, “babies who are ‘trained’ not to express their needs may appear to be docile, compliant or “good” babies. Yet, these babies could be depressed babies who are shutting down the expression of their needs.”

Of course prolonged non-responsiveness from a baby's mother would cause stress! But sleep training is not prolonged non-responsiveness. It's a bit of crying for a few days. If you look closely, many of these studies are based on mother/child relationships that most of us would equate with neglect and/or abuse.

If we're talking cortisol, I find that frustrating too. Yes, CIO raises cortisol or stress hormone levels in children. But so does breastfeeding, eating or basically any physical activity. Does this mean these are bad things? You know what also raises cortisol levels in children? Being overtired and not getting quality, sound sleep. In "Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child", Dr Weissbluth cites cases where children were brought to him because their parents thought they were ill, but they were just chronically overtired.

Earlier research, conducted by Michael Commons and Patrice Miller, researchers at the Harvard Medical School’s Department of Psychiatry, showed that not responding quickly to a baby’s cries can lead to incidents of post-traumatic stress and panic disorders when the child reach adulthood. Commons said “Parents should recognize that having their babies cry unnecessarily harms the baby permanently, it changes the nervous system so they’re overly sensitive to future trauma.”[6]

How is it possible to even claim such a thing? Is there a study that followed a large population of children who were sleep trained and compared them to a control group of children who were never sleep trained? How can you link cause and effect? With all of the experiences we have as children and adults?


I'm not against reading viewpoints that oppose my own, but I've just yet to read any literature that convinces me that sleep training is truly harmful.

 

[Randianne]

Edit - Randianne, just saw your post. This isn't the source. Just something that explained it. I'm not getting into a debate about it

It's fine if you don't want to debate. I wanted a source because you made a claim that doesn't make sense to me. That article you linked to doesn't even cite studies. All of the links the author included lead to articles or Facebook pages. Those are hardly good sources of factual information.

 

[Randianne]

To add to what Noelle said, here is a study from a peer reviewed journal that found that breastfeeding increases stress levels for the baby.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19874763

 

[Wishing_well]

What I don't understand is, why not put yourself in your babies place. You're crying (for whatever reason) and your only communicative tool is being ignored completely. So what if you just want a cuddle or to know that mums still there etc.
Yeah I know stress and lack of sleep is bad for mums too (speaking from experience as Quinn wakes every hour!) but we know better. Babies don't know that everything is fine and how it was when they went to sleep. I think biology has a lot to answer for and society needs to stop forcing babies to go against that.

If people want to use CIO then fine but i hate it when they assume that all information about how it harms and effects babies whether now or in the future, is made up or ridiculous.

 

[Randianne]

What I don't understand is, why not put yourself in your babies place. You're crying (for whatever reason) and your only communicative tool is being ignored completely. So what if you just want a cuddle or to know that mums still there etc.
Yeah I know stress and lack of sleep is bad for mums too (speaking from experience as Quinn wakes every hour!) but we know better. Babies don't know that everything is fine and how it was when they went to sleep. I think biology has a lot to answer for and society needs to stop forcing babies to go against that.

If people want to use CIO then fine but i hate it when they assume that all information about how it harms and effects babies whether now or in the future, is made up or ridiculous.

No one is saying that it doesn't raise cortisol levels in infants. As Noelle pointed out, so does walking, talking, and breastfeeding. Are you going to stop BFing because it raises the stress levels in your baby?

This is off point, but we don't know enough about cortisol to label it the 'bad' or 'stress' hormone. Science is still studying the effects of cortisol on the human brain.

As for your emotional argument, sometimes you have to do tough things that are the best for your child. Do you vaccinate? Because intentionally causing an infant pain goes against biology in the mother. We do it because we know it's best for them in the long term. It's the same reason some of us do CC/CIO.

I'm not saying CC/CIO is the solution for every baby. Babies are individuals and parents have to judge what is best for their child. However, I have never found anything that says CC/CIO is truly harmful when used appropriately.

 

[Twister]

I guess I must have harmed my baby by using CC to help her learn how to self settle then. Bad mummy.

 

[Wishing_well]

What I don't understand is, why not put yourself in your babies place. You're crying (for whatever reason) and your only communicative tool is being ignored completely. So what if you just want a cuddle or to know that mums still there etc.
Yeah I know stress and lack of sleep is bad for mums too (speaking from experience as Quinn wakes every hour!) but we know better. Babies don't know that everything is fine and how it was when they went to sleep. I think biology has a lot to answer for and society needs to stop forcing babies to go against that.

If people want to use CIO then fine but i hate it when they assume that all information about how it harms and effects babies whether now or in the future, is made up or ridiculous.

No one is saying that it doesn't raise cortisol levels in infants. As Noelle pointed out, so does walking, talking, and breastfeeding. Are you going to stop BFing because it raises the stress levels in your baby?

This is off point, but we don't know enough about cortisol to label it the 'bad' or 'stress' hormone. Science is still studying the effects of cortisol on the human brain.

As for your emotional argument, sometimes you have to do tough things that are the best for your child. Do you vaccinate? Because intentionally causing an infant pain goes against biology in the mother. We do it because we know it's best for them in the long term. It's the same reason some of us do CC/CIO.

I'm not saying CC/CIO is the solution for every baby. They are individuals and parents have to judge what is best for their child. However, I have never found anything that says CC/CIO is truly harmful when used appropriately.

I didn't say anything about cortisol levels and stress.
And yes sometimes we do have to do "tough" things but I feel it's unfair to expect a baby to just accept it. He doesn't know it's best for him.
I don't see how CIO and appropriate can be used in the same sentence - crying is a last resort for babies!

And no I don't vaccinate but that's another debate.

Anyway, each to their own.