Touchy-feely older kids

[Piper84]

LO (2 yo) has been at his new nursery for a few weeks now and settled in well. His group is 20 2-6 year olds supervised by two nursery nurses. He was at a creche before with 10 kids aged 0-3 supervised by two nursery nurses.

He is a very friendly boy and seems quite popular among his playmates, especially the older girls, but one 6 yo boy is worrying me a bit. Unlike any of the other boys his age, he's always trying to touch LO and the other younger ones and chase after them when they don't want him to. It seems like LO isn't that interested in his company as when the older boy tried to give him a leaf he'd picked up when I was dropping him off LO just said "no" and ran away.

We try to teach LO that he should say if he doesn't like someone touching him and that his personal space is important, but this boy seems to invade that quite a lot and I dread to think what it's like when I'm not there.

Has anyone else had any experience of this? What did you do?

 

[lozzy21]

Obviously I don't know the child but my first impression is that this boy could have an ASD and just wants to play with the children but is unable to read their cues that they don't want to play. It sounds like my younger cousin.

If that is the case the boy probably just wants to make friends but doesent know how read social situations

What would I do? Nothing apart from tell LO that we need to be nice to play with people. Aslong as this child is not being nasty to your son then I don't see a problem.

 

[Piper84]

He doesn't seem to have any behavioural problems. I've already seen the nursery nurses telling him off for bothering the younger ones when he's kept doing it before.

The way I see it, it's the older boy invading their space and that's the problem. The older boy isn't being nasty, but constant unwanted touching by an older child is damaging. I'd like to know how it is when I'm not there tbh.

LO gets along fine with the other kids so it's not about playing nicely.

 

[lozzy21]

You don't have to have behavioural problems to have a ASD. Lack of social awareness is a big symptom

 

[suzib76]

I would be checking the staff to child ratio. 20 kids to 2 non teaching staff is not right

And just to echo the above, ASD is not a behavioural problem. If only it were...

 

[Piper84]

You don't have to have behavioural problems to have a ASD. Lack of social awareness is a big symptom

Like I said, it's his problem, not my son's. This seems to have turned into a thread about the other kid and not about how to deal with an older, stronger boy constantly invading my son's space, so I think I'll leave it there.

The staff to child ratio is correct for Germany.

 

[ktod]

I understand you are leaving this thread alone now but I think you need to remove your son from this childcare provider
1. 2-6yr olds is not a mix I would want my child to be in daycare with, it's just too big an age gap
2. Even though the ratio of adults to children is ok for Germany, its not ok for me, I would want a smaller ratio. I don't know how they can look after all those children
3. There doesn't seem to be much help from the practitioners for ths older boy who needs support or for the little ones either if they feel uncomfortable.

 

[suzib76]

You don't have to have behavioural problems to have a ASD. Lack of social awareness is a big symptom

Like I said, it's his problem, not my son's. This seems to have turned into a thread about the other kid and not about how to deal with an older, stronger boy constantly invading my son's space, so I think I'll leave it there.

The staff to child ratio is correct for Germany.

Actually it's not his problem. It is down to the childcare setting to ensure each child's individual needs are met

 

[Piper84]

You don't have to have behavioural problems to have a ASD. Lack of social awareness is a big symptom

Like I said, it's his problem, not my son's. This seems to have turned into a thread about the other kid and not about how to deal with an older, stronger boy constantly invading my son's space, so I think I'll leave it there.

The staff to child ratio is correct for Germany.

Actually it's not his problem. It is down to the childcare setting to ensure each child's individual needs are met

My point was that it was not my child not being "nice" that is the problematic issue here, as suggested in an earlier thread. It's the older boy's behaviour that's the problem.

There is no evidence to suggest the older child has an ASD and if he did, he would not be in this setting. He has been in the group for four years, so I'm guessing something would have been noticed. The fact I've seen him dealt with with a telling off for repeatedly trying to touch another younger child, rather than a more careful approach, leaves me even more certain that he is "normal", just annoying and inappropriate.

I will be talking to the staff if I notice anything else that bothers me. My son is only just learning to talk proper sentences so I can't really ask if there's anything he wants to talk to me about.

The German early years system is different from that in the UK. I preferred the ratio of 0-3 years olds having 2 adults for 10 kids to 2-6 year olds having 2 adults for 20 kids, but the lack of places for under 3s means we can't afford to be selective.

 

[_Vicky_]

Kids with ASD are not excluded from mainstream in the main part (at least in te UK) from what I understand at such at young age unless they have specific needs.

In all truth and honesty all you can do is talk to the staff at two your son is in no position to control this especially with a boy that much older. I personally wouldn't be happy with 6 year olds in with mine and they are nearly 4 but if that's the set up in your country guess you hae to suck it up. Talking to the staff is the only thing you can do really isn't it

 

[Piper84]

I wasn't too happy at first that there were 6 yo kids with 2 yo kids either, but it seems to work well overall.

German schools and nurseries aren't as inclusive as those in the UK for kids with autism and they are usually sent to special schools.

 

[MrsPMP]

If you can't be picky about putting him in with upto 6 year olds and the ratio then you will have to put up with it probably.
They probably don't have enough time to make sure he doesn't fuss over the younger ones, and if he isn't being nasty then he is just over affectionate and wants to play? That's not a bad thing, but if your LO doesn't want him to do this then saying No and walking away is probably all that can happen. Sorry not to be much help but it's not anybody's fault. The older boy has every right to be himself just as much as your LO in the setting.

 

[_jellybean_]

Can you talk to the staff about this?

 

[MommyJogger]

Regardless of what the older child may or may not have, it's not okay for the workers to allow situations where a young toddler is subjected to forced personal-space invasion from an older, much bigger, much stronger child. I think it may be wise to spend time teaching and reinforcing strong, assertive language with your child so that he feels very practiced and comfortable in saying "no, back up, give me space" and walking away to go directly to one of the teachers if his personal space isn't being respected. It's a bad situation for either of the kids to be in. I hope your talk with the teachers goes well and that this is resolved an a way beneficial to all the kids.

 

[_jellybean_]

I don't have experience with this, but I'd be upset too.

 

[Piper84]

The older boy has every right to be himself just as much as your LO in the setting.

I can't get my head around this comment. If being "himself" means being inappropriate then no, that's not his right.

I like your suggestion, MommyJogger. Luckily LO is already very assertive and just bats us away when he's had enough cuddling or whatever! We always give him space when he asks for it. I hope he's the same when we're not around too

 

[Itsychik]

Regardless of what the older child may or may not have, it's not okay for the workers to allow situations where a young toddler is subjected to forced personal-space invasion from an older, much bigger, much stronger child. I think it may be wise to spend time teaching and reinforcing strong, assertive language with your child so that he feels very practiced and comfortable in saying "no, back up, give me space" and walking away to go directly to one of the teachers if his personal space isn't being respected. It's a bad situation for either of the kids to be in. I hope your talk with the teachers goes well and that this is resolved an a way beneficial to all the kids.

^^^ I have to agree with this as well. I live in the Netherlands (where the daycares usually consist of groups of 0 - 4 years, which I was concerned about when my LO was in the '0' age range as it seemed like such a huge gap but it also ended up working out pretty well). Is there a director at the daycare you could escalate to if the staff is not receptive/helpful? If you've seen the staff 'telling off' the other child before then it may be they can offer you more information or insight into what's being done to help the 6 year old, as maybe there's something going on you don't know. Alternatively, you can also ask them if the child has been evaluated for ASD or anything similar.

The older boy has every right to be himself just as much as your LO in the setting.

I can't get my head around this comment. If being "himself" means being inappropriate then no, that's not his right.

I also have to say I completely agree with this. If the older boy were biting other children, does this get to count as "being himself" ? If younger/smaller children are feeling intimidated by the older child then more of an effort needs to be made from the daycare to work with the older child to help him understand what is/is not acceptable. But that in no way gives the older child some implied right to make other children feel uncomfortable.

@ Piper- In the Netherlands they have an alternative form of daycare called a 'gastouder' (like a child minder) which here, is also sponsored by the government and the child minder is affiliated with an agency that checks their credentials, etc. Would something like this be an option for you if you're not able to find a solution at the daycare you're currently at? We switched our LO over in May and it's not only a cheaper solution, it gives DS a lot more personal attention (in NL a child minder can only be responsible for a max of 6 children, including their own) and he seems to be quite happy there. Just a thought

 

[Itsychik]

Also wanted to add, that it seems that people are often far to quick to suggest that there must be some sort of disorder or issue behind the reason a child might act like this. While it may be worth mentioning, that 1) Doesn't solve the OP's problem and 2) Is often not constructive, as the answers sometimes tend to be borderline of (IMO), "shame on you OP for not considering what that other poor child might be feeling."

It's also possible that the other child is perfectly "normal" who just refuses to listen or be corrected, and whose parents are aware of the problem and are also at their wits end.

I just feel like too often the OP has to end up defending the reason they're upset. IMO, no matter that the reason the other child is acting the way they do, that doesn't take away from the OP's legitimate concern of her child feeling uncomfortable.

 

[suzib76]

The older boy has every right to be himself just as much as your LO in the setting.

I can't get my head around this comment. If being "himself" means being inappropriate then no, that's not his right.

I think it's a shame that the responsibility for your young childs well being seems to be put upon this slightly older child.

The whole thing is absolutely something that is down to the childcare providers to deal with, not by the older boy being removed

 

[_jellybean_]

Also wanted to add, that it seems that people are often far to quick to suggest that there must be some sort of disorder or issue behind the reason a child might act like this. While it may be worth mentioning, that 1) Doesn't solve the OP's problem and 2) Is often not constructive, as the answers sometimes tend to be borderline of (IMO), "shame on you OP for not considering what that other poor child might be feeling."

It's also possible that the other child is perfectly "normal" who just refuses to listen or be corrected, and whose parents are aware of the problem and are also at their wits end.

I just feel like too often the OP has to end up defending the reason they're upset. IMO, no matter that the reason the other child is acting the way they do, that doesn't take away from the OP's legitimate concern of her child feeling uncomfortable.

Agree