Touchy-feely older kids

[Piper84]

The older boy has every right to be himself just as much as your LO in the setting.

I can't get my head around this comment. If being "himself" means being inappropriate then no, that's not his right.

I think it's a shame that the responsibility for your young childs well being seems to be put upon this slightly older child.

The whole thing is absolutely something that is down to the childcare providers to deal with, not by the older boy being removed

No-one said it was his responsibility. What I said, which may have been misconstrued, is that the problem is the older child's behaviour, not my child not being "nice" enough.

Can't see anyone suggesting the older child be removed either.

Itsychik: Thanks for the suggestion. There are Tagesmütter (childminders) affiliated with the Jugendamt (Youth Welfare Office) here too. LO's been in a nursery setting since he was 15 months and has always thrived. I'd like to keep him in the same setting, just don't want him bothered by this one kid. The best thing to do is to make the nursery nurses aware of it, if they aren't already.

 

[SerenityNow]

I agree with teaching a child to speak up when they don't like what someone is doing, but I disagree that this is a situation that is "damaging". He probably sees the 2 year olds as babies and thinks they are cute and wants to cuddle them. My youngest is constantly being fawned over by the kids at my older DD's school and they love to try to pick him up or hold his hand and walk with him. He's doesn't like it at all, and i explain to them that he is shy and feels nervous around people but I certainly don't think that they are acting inappropriately. They aren't violating him.

A six year old is still a very young child. He probably has no idea that some people are more protective of their personal space. Even though someone can tell him as much, he isn't old enough to be expected really internalize the concept that he is making other children feel uncomfortable.

I guess that based on how you've described the situation, I struggle to understand what is so worrying to you.

 

[MommyJogger]

I agree with teaching a child to speak up when they don't like what someone is doing, but I disagree that this is a situation that is "damaging". He probably sees the 2 year olds as babies and thinks they are cute and wants to cuddle them. My youngest is constantly being fawned over by the kids at my older DD's school and they love to try to pick him up or hold his hand and walk with him. He's doesn't like it at all, and i explain to them that he is shy and feels nervous around people but I certainly don't think that they are acting inappropriately. They aren't violating him.

A six year old is still a very young child. He probably has no idea that some people are more protective of their personal space. Even though someone can tell him as much, he isn't old enough to be expected really internalize the concept that he is making other children feel uncomfortable.

I guess that based on how you've described the situation, I struggle to understand what is so worrying to you.

It's damaging if he learns that he's expected to allow someone (anyone) into his personal space if he doesn't feel comfortable doing so. That inadvertently sets children up as targets for future sexual abuse. It's important for children to learn that personal space is personal, theirs to give, and not anyone's to take. That was her point about it not being that her child is unkind. She didn't want to get a bunch of responses telling her to teach her child to tolerate this other child's intrusion out of kindness. A neurotypical 6 year old can begin to learn to respect personal space-- not that this older child is bad for not knowing it yet, but that this is a developmentally appropriate time to teach it, rather than to ignore the older child's behavior or to expect the younger children to deal with the intrusions.
It's not really a matter of whether the space invasion is developmentally appropriate-- it probably is normal for lots of 6 year olds to invade personal space unknowingly. It's a matter of it being important to maintain that boundary of personal space regardless of what's developmentally appropriate.
It's developmentally appropriate for a 6 month old to put a dog turd in their mouth, but you correct and prevent the behavior. This is the same type of thing. The 6 year old isn't bad for doing it-- but it's also something outside of appropriate boundaries that the adults need to maintain.

 

[Saphira]

Piper, off topic a bit, but I wasn't aware 2-year-olds could start kindergarten? I thought at youngest 2 1/2 if they're potty trained? I thought under 3-year-olds are mostly in kinderkrippe?

 

[Saphira]

Ah, sorry.. I don't have experience with this kind of situation. I got caught up in the whole nursery/kindergarten thought. I'm thinking of putting my nearly 2 year old in sometime next year but have no idea where to start with it or whether to just wait until she's 3. Anyway, I would feel concerned like you're feeling.. personal space should be respected. My lo can't communicate well yet through words so I have no idea how I would handle this. I'd probably express my concerns to the kindergarten staff and take it from there.

 

[OmarsMum]

I wouldnt be happy full stop. My son doesnt like kids to get too close to him, his school knows about it, & a 6 yrs old is old enough to understand to leave younger kids alone. My cousin is 7 (turned 7 few days back), he's always around omar & his brother. When he gets annoying around the younger kids he gets corrected & he listens & says sorry. He's not he most easy going kid, & he's stubborn but he's well behaved, he likes to tease his brother who's 3 yrs younger but he knows when to stop.

If you are unconfortable talk to the person in charge, if your kid is not interested to be close to the older kid, the odler kid should respect that, he's old enough to respect personal space, you are the one with the younger kid who still doesnt understand why his eprsonal space should be ok to be invaded not the other way around. I dont think your kid is old enough to undertsand that the older kid is neing friendly, but a 6 yrs old should know that personal space should be respected.

If the 6 yrs old kid have issues then this should be looked at especially at the age of 6 yrs, his parents/ school should know it by now.

ETA: but I wouldn't consider it abuse, & I honestly don't think you have the right to ask them to move the kid to another class, if I had the option I'd more mine if there is no other solution

 

[moomin_troll]

I haven't read the while thread but i don't see the point in being moody because people have suggested this child may have problems.

Other then this child stopping, there's not a lot people can suggest to you. Other then maybe pull aside this child's parents at the end of the nursery day and have a word about the fact u don't like their child's behaviour or suggest to the staff u want him away from your child.

Failing that change nurseries, I don't see why the older boy should be removed because ur not happy, wow that's bratty!
Unless he's a serious risk as in hurting physically or touching in a sexual way then they can't do much

 

[moomin_troll]

Ps there is a very hands on child in my eldest class at school, he's 5. He was around my 2 year old before school started and wanted to help Corey down a hill, Corey was having none of it, the boy held his hand again...Corey pulled away.
I then went up and said something to the boy myself.

I have also seen this boys "mother" and from what I can see this boy is lacking love and affection, everytime I've seen him he's ignored by her.
He even hugged my ohs leg until he said erm get off mate.

I felt for this boy, so you never no the reason as to why he's full on.
My eldest loves role play and growls at people other children and if someone didn't like it I'd be fine with the parent telling me so and I'd have words with zane, as I have done when we've been in public.

 

[HPmum2B]

I agree with teaching a child to speak up when they don't like what someone is doing, but I disagree that this is a situation that is "damaging". He probably sees the 2 year olds as babies and thinks they are cute and wants to cuddle them. My youngest is constantly being fawned over by the kids at my older DD's school and they love to try to pick him up or hold his hand and walk with him. He's doesn't like it at all, and i explain to them that he is shy and feels nervous around people but I certainly don't think that they are acting inappropriately. They aren't violating him.

A six year old is still a very young child. He probably has no idea that some people are more protective of their personal space. Even though someone can tell him as much, he isn't old enough to be expected really internalize the concept that he is making other children feel uncomfortable.

I guess that based on how you've described the situation, I struggle to understand what is so worrying to you.

I follow your line of thought. I see it as annoying, not damaging.

 

[Piper84]

I don't see why the older boy should be removed because ur not happy, wow that's bratty!

What are you actually talking about?

It's damaging if he learns that he's expected to allow someone (anyone) into his personal space if he doesn't feel comfortable doing so. That inadvertently sets children up as targets for future sexual abuse. It's important for children to learn that personal space is personal, theirs to give, and not anyone's to take. That was her point about it not being that her child is unkind. She didn't want to get a bunch of responses telling her to teach her child to tolerate this other child's intrusion out of kindness. A neurotypical 6 year old can begin to learn to respect personal space-- not that this older child is bad for not knowing it yet, but that this is a developmentally appropriate time to teach it, rather than to ignore the older child's behavior or to expect the younger children to deal with the intrusions.
It's not really a matter of whether the space invasion is developmentally appropriate-- it probably is normal for lots of 6 year olds to invade personal space unknowingly. It's a matter of it being important to maintain that boundary of personal space regardless of what's developmentally appropriate.

Thank you. This is exactly my reasoning. The older boy is a twin and the less dominant one and I wonder if he has to put up with the same from his brother and learned the behaviour from that (pure speculation, but possible). At the same time, I don't want my LO to learn that it's OK to invade other people's space.

Piper, off topic a bit, but I wasn't aware 2-year-olds could start kindergarten? I thought at youngest 2 1/2 if they're potty trained? I thought under 3-year-olds are mostly in kinderkrippe?

Ah, sorry.. I don't have experience with this kind of situation. I got caught up in the whole nursery/kindergarten thought. I'm thinking of putting my nearly 2 year old in sometime next year but have no idea where to start with it or whether to just wait until she's 3. Anyway, I would feel concerned like you're feeling.. personal space should be respected. My lo can't communicate well yet through words so I have no idea how I would handle this. I'd probably express my concerns to the kindergarten staff and take it from there.

It varies. LO was in a Krippe until we moved. The Kindergarten groups have started taking 2 year olds now because of the Rechtsanspruch. "Pamperskinder" are allowed and kids who still nap!

Which area are you in? We're in an area with very low provision for under 3s but somehow still managed to get a place after waiting three months!

 

[Abigailly]

I think the only thing you can do, is speak to the ECPs. I can't believe the ratio is only 1:10. That scares me. With that kind of ratio I doubt they'll be able to do anything about it as they don't have the time to deal with individual situations.

He may have a few social issues or he may just like 'mothering' the smaller kids. My daughter is very much the mothering type and we've had to speak to her about personal space etc as she gets very in the face of smaller children and is forever trying to lift them and hold their hands.

I would first speak tot he ECPs, explain that you're not comfortable with this, and that it's not fair on your LO. But I doubt they have the resources to do anything so I think your only other options are to deal with it yourself. Just get down on the litttle boys level and suggest he plays elsewhere, that your LO just likes to play by himself.

Make sure your LO carries on telling him no. Unfortunately kids pick up some awful things when they're in with older children. He probably will at some point invade someone else' personal space. You just have to reinforce, at home, what's important to you.

I've had to accept my DD will pick up a shitty attitude from some of the kids at her playgroup. She does bring it home and as soon as she brings it into the house I nip it in the bud and explain that may be how other children behaves but it's not how we behave.

 

[moomin_troll]

What am I talking about?
U made a comment saying you don't see anyone suggesting the older child is removed from the class.

Your clearly acting like a bratty child because your not happy. So I'm done.
You won't listen or take anyones opinion who's different to yours

 

[Piper84]

What am I talking about?
U made a comment saying you don't see anyone suggesting the older child is removed from the class.

Your clearly acting like a bratty child because your not happy. So I'm done.
You won't listen or take anyones opinion who's different to yours

I've been accused of saying he should be removed in this thread when I haven't. Learn to read before giving your pearls of wisdom next time.

 

[Piper84]

I think the only thing you can do, is speak to the ECPs. I can't believe the ratio is only 1:10. That scares me. With that kind of ratio I doubt they'll be able to do anything about it as they don't have the time to deal with individual situations.

He may have a few social issues or he may just like 'mothering' the smaller kids. My daughter is very much the mothering type and we've had to speak to her about personal space etc as she gets very in the face of smaller children and is forever trying to lift them and hold their hands.

I would first speak tot he ECPs, explain that you're not comfortable with this, and that it's not fair on your LO. But I doubt they have the resources to do anything so I think your only other options are to deal with it yourself. Just get down on the litttle boys level and suggest he plays elsewhere, that your LO just likes to play by himself.

Make sure your LO carries on telling him no. Unfortunately kids pick up some awful things when they're in with older children. He probably will at some point invade someone else' personal space. You just have to reinforce, at home, what's important to you.

I've had to accept my DD will pick up a shitty attitude from some of the kids at her playgroup. She does bring it home and as soon as she brings it into the house I nip it in the bud and explain that may be how other children behaves but it's not how we behave.

To be fair, they have a trainee as well so it's not that bad. LO also picks up some really good habits being around older kids and luckily we've got LO#2 at home he can practice his social skills on.

There's a parents' evening coming up so, unless I see anything that bothers me by that time, I'm gonna bring it up then.

 

[Itsychik]

What am I talking about?
U made a comment saying you don't see anyone suggesting the older child is removed from the class.

Your clearly acting like a bratty child because your not happy. So I'm done.
You won't listen or take anyones opinion who's different to yours

I think you misinterpreted the comment. There was a discussion about how children with certain disorders are often removed from the general childcare facilities in Germany and put into special needs ones. Someone else made a comment about how removing the child might not have been the answer, and the OP responded that she didn't see anyone trying to remove the child.

I think your response however is really inappropriate. As far as I can tell you're the only one who is name calling, and this thread is full of opinions that are different from the OP's and she's been respectful in all of her responses. If you feel the need to be offensive then perhaps you should refrain from responding.

 

[Saphira]

It varies. LO was in a Krippe until we moved. The Kindergarten groups have started taking 2 year olds now because of the Rechtsanspruch. "Pamperskinder" are allowed and kids who still nap!

Which area are you in? We're in an area with very low provision for under 3s but somehow still managed to get a place after waiting three months!

I see, yes, I've seen documentaries of some German states having a hard time figuring out how to create enough spots for under 3 year olds especially. It's said there are enough nursery spots open in all of Germany to cover the need but in certain states (Nordrhein-Westfalen & Bayern especially from my memory) this is far from reality. We're in Meckpomm, highly doubt there's a prob with it here.

 

[cutie4evr01]

We have dealt with this issue with a couple of older girls at our church who always want to touch and pick up my daughters (I think they are about 5 and 7). I'm sure they mean no harm, they are just mommy-figures, but it still is unwanted touching. My youngest is strong-willed and generally will just run away or push the child off (I know pushing is not good, but sometimes is warranted when other children won't leave her alone). My oldest is really sensitive to people invading her space, and yet is timid and non-confrontational, so she used to just take it for a short while and then break down crying. If I am around, I ask the child to stop myself. But as you say, you never know what is happening when you are not around. We have taught her that when someone is touching her when she doesn't want to be touched, she should say "No, please don't touch me", or "Please back up". If that doesn't deter the child, the next step is back up or move away herself. If that still doesn't work, she is to go and tell the teacher or trusted adult. We actually have done some role playing with her and this situation and it has made her braver and more willing to speak out. It sounds as though your son's teachers have already gotten on to this child about this issue and it doesn't seem to be helping too much, so perhaps you could teach your son to play nearer to the teachers when it's happening so that they can help him.

 

[sequeena]

My son is the one who gets into everyone's personal space but he has global developmental delay, possible autism and doesn't know how to interact with other people.

 

[Piper84]

It varies. LO was in a Krippe until we moved. The Kindergarten groups have started taking 2 year olds now because of the Rechtsanspruch. "Pamperskinder" are allowed and kids who still nap!

Which area are you in? We're in an area with very low provision for under 3s but somehow still managed to get a place after waiting three months!

I see, yes, I've seen documentaries of some German states having a hard time figuring out how to create enough spots for under 3 year olds especially. It's said there are enough nursery spots open in all of Germany to cover the need but in certain states (Nordrhein-Westfalen & Bayern especially from my memory) this is far from reality. We're in Meckpomm, highly doubt there's a prob with it here.

Yep, we're in NRW. I think your area has quite good provision. I think the former East generally still has the Krippe infrastructure from the DDR days.

 

[Magsy]

It sounds like the problem is the mix of ages. Anytime you mix six year olds with toddlers, you are going to have some problems with personal space violation. The older kids tend to see the younger ones as babies. I understand that this can't be helped in your situation and that's unfortunate. I would talk to the nursery workers if you are uncomfortable, but TBH the situation you described with the leaf sounds pretty typical of toddlers and kids on the same playground.