Wits end with shallow latch and lipstick nipple

[DaisyDreamer]

So my LO is 4.5 months old and this has been a problem now gotten worse since the beginning.

It's NOT overactive letdown and him trying to control the flow of my milk
I've tried doing breast sandwiches, relatching (I spend half and hour latching and relatching before just giving up), we JUST saw an ENT who says there is no problem with either lips or tongue and I've just got so much pain especially on my left side.

There are blebs and red marks from the friction I just can't seem to open his mouth enough and get enough nipple in there? Pumping is not much of an option for me because I never get enough plus how clingy he's been lately I can barely sit down for 5 minutes

Any advice??

 

[jessmke]

Isla has a pretty shallow latch and what helped me was to feed her less often. I used to offer her the boob all the time, but now I only nurse her if she asks for it. If she wasn't really very hungry or was just comfort nursing then she was lazy and her latch was even shallower (a nurse called it "nipple sucking") and it was very uncomfortable for me. If she is actually hungry then she latches much better and drinks for much longer (rather than stopping 30 seconds after getting a letdown, leaving me with a sore nipple and engorged boobs!). Other than that I don't have any real advice, sorry!

 

[Feisty Fidget]

I just wanted to say you're not alone. My LO is 5.5 months and I have wonky nipples where her latch is so terrible. We've worked with a lactation consultant with no joy. She has quite the temper and the only way to get her calm during a melt down is to whip a boob out.

Do you have a breastfeeding support group local to you?

 

[noon_child]

Is it possible he finds it uncomfortable to open his mouth wide? I never tried it but I know people who swear by paediatric chiropractors or osteopaths - especially when they had a forceps birth, as neck tension from birth can hang around for a long time.

 

[DaisyDreamer]

Is it possible he finds it uncomfortable to open his mouth wide? I never tried it but I know people who swear by paediatric chiropractors or osteopaths - especially when they had a forceps birth, as neck tension from birth can hang around for a long time.

Maybe it is time for him to see the chiro again, thanks for the tip

 

[penelopejones]

Can you get a second opinion on the lip/tongue tie? Apparently some don't recognize that a posterior tongue tie can affect nursing. Is there a specialist in your area? Check out his facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/TongueTieBabies/

Other than that, I agree with chiro or some other kind of bodywork, such as miofascial release, if you can find someone in your area who works on babies.

 

[Mrs W 11]

Just wondered how feeding is going now?

My dd clamped the nipple like this causing pain, lipstick nipple and a white stripe. Now my ds is 4 weeks old and does the same it's SO painful. I think mine is shallow latch, I guess I have big nipples and babies with small mouths?!

Just wondered if things had got better for you or if you had any tips for me? X

 

[minties]

I am earlier on but same problem here. Shallow horrible latch, Emma doesn't ever open her mouth. She just sucks the nipple in, only opens up wide enough to take the nipple itself. She opened up nice and wide when we were still in hospital do I have no idea what happened.

Left nipple has a big crack and it's agony. I had scabs all over my nipples but have managed to get rid of them with CJ's BUTTer.

 

[Mrs W 11]

Oh Minties, isn't it awful?! Do you get pain after feeding as well when the blood flows back into the nipple? That and the latch is the worst bit for me, the latch is still getting worse for me not better! Thank god once the let down happens it eases. Did your older babies have the same issue or is this the first time?

 

[DaisyDreamer]

I can't say anything definitively helped but the pain has gone away and my left nipple is almost completely healed. I think that the damage was making me apprehensive and making his latch worse

Personally I would just use lanolin and express from the sore side as much as possible. Also massage the gums and under the tongue where the frenulums are may help, I think it did with Zodi.

 

[noon_child]

Just wondered how feeding is going now?

My dd clamped the nipple like this causing pain, lipstick nipple and a white stripe. Now my ds is 4 weeks old and does the same it's SO painful. I think mine is shallow latch, I guess I have big nipples and babies with small mouths?!

Just wondered if things had got better for you or if you had any tips for me? X

Oh Minties, isn't it awful?! Do you get pain after feeding as well when the blood flows back into the nipple? That and the latch is the worst bit for me, the latch is still getting worse for me not better! Thank god once the let down happens it eases. Did your older babies have the same issue or is this the first time?

If your babies clamp down but ease off after the initial letdown, and both did it, but you still get vasospasm after feeds, two things immediately came to mind:
1) the letdown itself is forceful and baby clamps to slow the milk flow - this would happen with both children if your body is prone to oversupply and/or fast letdown.
2) baby has tongue tie stopping them from drawing milk out correctly (so they mash it between their gums) but once letdown comes they don't have to 'suck' and can just gulp what is coming out, so ease off.

I wonder if Minties' DD could have been OK with the flow of colostrum in hospital because it only comes out in drips, but once milk came in she couldn't handle it and learnt to restrict the flow by using a shallow latch. Even once old enough to cope with the flow she might just have been in the habit of latching the same way.

Of course tongue tie can make it much harder to cope with fast letdown, so it is possible to have a bit of both in the mix. I think my LO had an undiagnosed TT which only stopped her tongue movement to a small extent, so she would latch and feed but it was painful and caused damage. She hated one side much more than the other and would constantly come off or latch much more shallowly. Later as her latch improved (I assume her tongue had to do less work once she was bigger so the tie didn't affect feeding to the same extent) she preferred the "bad" side and I realised it was my higher producing side. Despite not having fast letdown (never sprayed, rarely leaked) with a TT my girl couldn't cope with flow. Other babies can't cope with flow even without TT, if it is very strong.

 

[Mrs W 11]

Thanks noon child. Forceful let down did cross my mind but he clamps all the way through the feed and doesn't ease off once the flow slows. He doesn't seem to be able to get a deeper latch no matter what I try. I've tried laying down to slow the flow but it makes no difference. Even if I put him back on after the fast flow is done he still clamps which is what makes me think shallow latch.

It hurts most at beginning and end of feed which I had put down to friction. Once I feel the let down and hear him swallowing it eases and I guess the milk makes it feel less painful as its all slippery and wet?! Then as soon as the milk flow slows I gradually feel the pinch worsen. I usually unlatch him at the end of the feed once he's sucking and no swallowing.

I can't wait until he grows out of it, I can cope in the day but the post feed pain keeps me awake at night even though I'm exhausted. It's like my whole boob is on fire or something!

 

[Mrs W 11]

Also regarding Tongue tie, I've been told he has a very slight tt but it shouldn't be affecting feeding and isn't bad enough to cut. I was told exactly the same with my dd.

 

[bcos21]

I used a nipple shield for 6 months, fixed all my latching problems. Then one day he decided he didn't need it any more, continued nursing until he was 2.5 and he self weaned during this pregnancy. Good luck, I know it's frustrating

 

[noon_child]

Also regarding Tongue tie, I've been told he has a very slight tt but it shouldn't be affecting feeding and isn't bad enough to cut. I was told exactly the same with my dd.

Only you and your baby can tell if the tongue tie is affecting feeding, because its not what it looks like but how the tongue is able to move that is important. I was told my LO didn't have a tongue tie at all but despite this she rarely cupped my breast with her tongue, used her gums to massage milk out, gave me striped, angled nipples that hurt through the whole feed. She could stick her tongue out, but the moment she tried to suck she'd pull it back inwards!

Can you get a second opinion from anyone?

 

[minties]

Just wondered how feeding is going now?

My dd clamped the nipple like this causing pain, lipstick nipple and a white stripe. Now my ds is 4 weeks old and does the same it's SO painful. I think mine is shallow latch, I guess I have big nipples and babies with small mouths?!

Just wondered if things had got better for you or if you had any tips for me? X

Oh Minties, isn't it awful?! Do you get pain after feeding as well when the blood flows back into the nipple? That and the latch is the worst bit for me, the latch is still getting worse for me not better! Thank god once the let down happens it eases. Did your older babies have the same issue or is this the first time?

If your babies clamp down but ease off after the initial letdown, and both did it, but you still get vasospasm after feeds, two things immediately came to mind:
1) the letdown itself is forceful and baby clamps to slow the milk flow - this would happen with both children if your body is prone to oversupply and/or fast letdown.
2) baby has tongue tie stopping them from drawing milk out correctly (so they mash it between their gums) but once letdown comes they don't have to 'suck' and can just gulp what is coming out, so ease off.

I wonder if Minties' DD could have been OK with the flow of colostrum in hospital because it only comes out in drips, but once milk came in she couldn't handle it and learnt to restrict the flow by using a shallow latch. Even once old enough to cope with the flow she might just have been in the habit of latching the same way.

Of course tongue tie can make it much harder to cope with fast letdown, so it is possible to have a bit of both in the mix. I think my LO had an undiagnosed TT which only stopped her tongue movement to a small extent, so she would latch and feed but it was painful and caused damage. She hated one side much more than the other and would constantly come off or latch much more shallowly. Later as her latch improved (I assume her tongue had to do less work once she was bigger so the tie didn't affect feeding to the same extent) she preferred the "bad" side and I realised it was my higher producing side. Despite not having fast letdown (never sprayed, rarely leaked) with a TT my girl couldn't cope with flow. Other babies can't cope with flow even without TT, if it is very strong.

You could be onto something there. When my letdown occurs she often chokes, pulls off, then there is a lot of clicking, gulping and taking in air when she re-latches.

She never opens her mouth wide to latch on either, makes a face you'd associate with someone that has a straw in their mouth and her tongue sticks out, she sucks the nipple in which really hurts.