Being observant Vs Being racist

[KittyVentura]

A thread in baby club got me thinking.

When does being observant and/or sharing your observations cross over to being a racist view or comment?

Often things are said which appear to be an observation without judgement are claimed to be a racist comment because that observation is about one particular race or ethnicity.

Things I mean are:

Someone, asked about a crime as a witness, could say that they saw a person of XX race walk in moments before a crime occured. This is an observation and seems to be without judgement however some may deem it racist as it mentions a race. "You're saying that because I am XXXX I must be a criminal".

Someone might observe in an on-topic debate that certain crimes appear to be linked to certain ethnic groups. That person might be called racist however looking at facts relating to the crime may show it to be a true observation.

They might be odd examples and I hope neither offend. Just trying to help my point.

So yeah, at what point is the line crossed. Should non judgemental true observations (NOT opinions) be ok about any ethnicity/race other than your own? Should people shy away from making observations without judgement in case they offend?

xx

 

[Lightworker]

I think observations are different to judgements and should be allowed. When it comes to eye witness testimony, some argued that eg a white man should not be allowed to give eye-witness evidence against say a black man because people of different races tend to view others as "looking the same" eg to a white man all blacks look the same therefore you can't pin point exactly which one. So even in casual observation, our inner prejudices/beliefs may kick in, and thats why people think it is racist.

 

[tallybee]

Yeah I think it's the point where facts end and judgement/opinion begins. But it can be a very grey area

Saying that there are statistical links between certain groups and certain crimes/diseases/activities/anything doesn't in any way mean that a specific person in that group will be linked to that thing, but assuming so is a common mistake.

The problem is that some peoples' opinions are so swayed about certain groups of people (whether it be racial groups or otherwise) that they'll only notice things that agree with that prior opinion. Which then solidifies that opinion into fact, in their mind.

It's a tough one... the line between facts and opinions can become very blurred. Stats can be manipulated... even subconsciously.

Interesting topic by the way!

 

[Lightworker]

I'm on my mobile but my posts have to be so concise but I think what is essential is not the observation as such but the connotations behind it. Eg when people say Afro Carribeans have the lowest level of GCSEs, while it might be a fact, it is also carries with it an implied condemnation of afro-carribeans (depending on your level of sensitivity.) It is easy to understand why one would be offended, moreso if the race in question has already suffered condemnation for centuries.

 

[Lightworker]

Also, if you are into conspiracies, one might argue that statistics are published to suit political/personal agendas and might be used to invoke a certain response eg - one might argue with the afro carribean example, that those stats were released to ensure he afro-carribeans remain at their intellectually inferior status (via self-fulfilling prophecies etc) iykwim?

 

[bky]

I think when it crosses from being specific to a person to being inclusive of a group
Ok: that green man took my puppy. This is just a descriptor factor.
Not ok:green men will take your puppies. This is using the descriptor factor to label the group outside the individual.
Using nonsensical examples on purpose.
I think people should feel free to feel that someone (as in a particular individual) of another race/religion/group was being a jerk without fear of being labeled racist. As long as they can make the distinction between Bob and people who look/dress/act like Bob.

 

[DanielleM]

I think that everybody will observe a persons race when they first meet just as when you first meet a person the first thing most people do is decide the sex of the person. Because I am judging their sex that makes me observant, but if I chose not to speak to that person because it was a male and not a female that would make me sexist.

The case would be the same for a person of a different race to myself. I am White British and if I met a person who was Afro-Carribean, subconsciously I would observe that this person was Afro-Carribean, it would then become racist if I decided not to speak to the person due to the race or thought of certain stereotypes of the race before actually knowing the person.

 

[vaniilla]

I think when it crosses from being specific to a person to being inclusive of a group
Ok: that green man took my puppy. This is just a descriptor factor.
Not ok:green men will take your puppies. This is using the descriptor factor to label the group outside the individual.
Using nonsensical examples on purpose.
I think people should feel free to feel that someone (as in a particular individual) of another race/religion/group was being a jerk without fear of being labeled racist. As long as they can make the distinction between Bob and people who look/dress/act like Bob.

this is what I was going to say, I also think the context is important, if somebody pulls statistics out the air when they're not needed to imply something then its racist, also you can usually tell people's intentions with their questions what their stance is, for example while I was working at CAB and a coffee bar there was always at least 1 person, and in the CAB it was my boss that every time they saw me they'd feel the need to come over and say the same questions "do you wish you were English" "why aren't you going back home" "why do you call yourself British" that and talking to me in a slow patronizing way and pointing out that she knew how to pronounce my name she'd just rather say it her way :\ now she'll tell you it was innocent but I can assure you it was far from it!

 

[Nibblenic]

What I dont like is people who say you've got a problem with me becuase i'm black/forgien/woman/gay/fat. When you just have a problem with them cos they are a twat!

Where I live in the northeast. There isnt many people who aren't white. It is a real rarety to see someone who is black around here. So when you see someone they do stand out and you do notice them. But no more than you wold notice anyone who looked different to the norm around here. Like the goth girls who walk up my street now its minaly chavy round here so the goths stand out. I was a bit goth myself in the past but I still double take when i see them.
However it is just a observation of something different. I would never treat them differently because of that.

Maybe however I am chavist. My car/house has been damaged by a group of young boys so when I here young chany voices outside I do go look out of my window to make sure it isnt them and my stuff isnt getting damaged. I dont assume they will damage stuff and wont chase them off is they arent doing anything wrong but I will always check.

 

[Blah11]

I think observations are different to judgements and should be allowed. When it comes to eye witness testimony, some argued that eg a white man should not be allowed to give eye-witness evidence against say a black man because people of different races tend to view others as "looking the same" eg to a white man all blacks look the same therefore you can't pin point exactly which one. So even in casual observation, our inner prejudices/beliefs may kick in, and thats why people think it is racist.

Thats interesting. Come to think of it, I do think black people tend to look the same to me. maybe because I don't have any friends who aren't white. Do you think white people look the same too?

 

[cherryglitter]

What I dont like is people who say you've got a problem with me becuase i'm black/forgien/woman/gay/fat. When you just have a problem with them cos they are a twat!

Sorry this made me giggle!!

 

[cherryglitter]

Something that does annoy me is when people say: "I am not racist/sexist/etc because my uncles aunt has a cousins whose boyfriend's daughter is.. gay/asian/etc"

 

[tallybee]

Something that does annoy me is when people say: "I am not racist/sexist/etc because my uncles aunt has a cousins whose boyfriend's daughter is.. gay/asian/etc"

Yeah I know exactly the sort of thing you mean. Really daft.

 

[Nibblenic]

YEah I have also seen the research on the 'they all look the same to me' effect.

https://www.newscientist.com/articl...k-the-same-race-effect-seen-in-the-brain.html

IT isnt just about white people looking at other races its about anyone outside of what you are familiar with in day to day life

 

[DanielleM]

YEah I have also seen the research on the 'they all look the same to me' effect.

https://www.newscientist.com/articl...k-the-same-race-effect-seen-in-the-brain.html

IT isnt just about white people looking at other races its about anyone outside of what you are familiar with in day to day life

A bit of an example of this was on the Wright Stuff this morning as a special guest they had the actress off Eastenders who plays Mercy, then showed a clip apparently of her but it was a clip of Kim off Eastenders, both black actresses and to me look different. What was the bloody editor of the show doing? Having a coffee break lol!!

 

[Lightworker]

Blah- yeah, my DH always confuses the nursery workers at my daughters nursery as he thinks they all look alike. For me, I find this is very common amongst Chinese. (By that I mean to me, I find that Chinese tend to look similar iykwim?). So it definitely applies across the board.

 

[Lightworker]

Danielle Mitch - you floored me with that

 

[Loverman]

if you can back up what your saying then its not racist.

My Question: Why is it that "a certain race" of people almost never say someone has been racist to them. Yet they are the ones being accused of being rascist the most?

 

[Vickie]

Blah- yeah, my DH always confuses the nursery workers at my daughters nursery as he thinks they all look alike. For me, I find this is very common amongst Chinese. (By that I mean to me, I find that Chinese tend to look similar iykwim?). So it definitely applies across the board.

funnily enough my (Chinese) DH would say the same thing about my family (white)

 

[nomadlife]

Describing someone as a certain color/ethnicity/culture is not racist (unless there is that certain "tone"). Saying people of a certain color/ethnicity/culture are all something negative is generalization and racist.

I don't find people of other races hard to tell apart usually, but I think if the situation was just seeing one X race person and having to describe them I would find that a challenge as the ethnicity would be the stand out feature.

There was the case of the young girl who was attacked by a "black man" and he ended up in prison for years. 14 years after he was convicted DNA evidence exonerated the man and he was released as he was proven innocent. It was on Dr Phil. On the show it was explained how she had projected this innocent mans face onto the face of her attacker and even with 2 independent DNA tests which proved his innocence she couldn't accept it in the end. (look at the Dr Phil site for more details)

So yes, I think peoples eyewitness accounts can be very unreliable in the case of race!