Feminism

[Gen79]

I'm moving a side discussion from this thread here so as not to derail it.

Gen she does mean 'without'
I'd be interested to hear what you think feminism is as I fail to understand why you think this is 'the work of feminists' Because feminism is a blanket term to be applied to anything dealing with women and our self image?
My sd did her thesis on the naked body in advertising (that's an inelegant translation from the French) and you wouldn't believe how many things are sold using naked and suggestive images of the female body, drinks, perfume, holidays, sofas for Gods sake! How one is supposed to raise a kid to believe in their non physical attributes when they constantly have the image of the perfect body thrown at them I do not know. I wonder how deep it already is in me? How much is my self image affected by received ideas? Do I really look past image in search of truth? How do I teach my daughter if I don't even know myself?

First, I'm not necessarily using feminism as a negative term. I think I'm just calling it what it is. The piece was about feminine self image being dominated by a masculine controlled media; typical feminist domain.

I think its looked at with a relatively narrow lens and that there's more to the story. If you take the advertising example, yes naked women are used often, but so are babies and puppies used outside of their own context. And the media tells men how to look and behave just as much. Its just not trendy to say so.

In the trailer they talked about the underrepresentation of women in high level jobs. It has occurred to me that with the state of the American employment law with regards to women and families, it's not surprising. They get little time off when they have a baby and then its back to work full time or stay at home. Here in the UK (I'm American though), we get up to 12 months off and then most women go back part time, keeping their foot in the door and able to get back into things full speed if they want later. The women mostly likely to be able to afford to stay home are the ones who were on a high level trajectory but after 5 years at home its less likely you'll make it to CEO. None of that is the media's fault.

So, the feminist angle is that it's the fault of a patriarchal hegemony. The evolutionary view could be that its entirely natural for women to duck out of the rat race to raise their children. And the political perspective could be that the legal system is at fault. I haven't seen the whole documentary yet, but I doubt it touched on all these.

I do believe that the media makes it worse, don't get me wrong. However, I think that its entirely natural for men and women to want to look as beautiful as they can for each other. People tried to look good for each other way before "the media" took control.

 

[Ruth 1980]

Popped in to follow the debate! Re: your last paragraph, yes, imagine- women in ancient Egypt were perfecting eye makeup thousands of years ago!! But I do think the media has a responsibility in projecting a certain body-type as perfect...

 

[Gen79]

Popped in to follow the debate! Re: your last paragraph, yes, imagine- women in ancient Egypt were perfecting eye makeup thousands of years ago!! But I do think the media has a responsibility in projecting a certain body-type as perfect...

They do and its at best almost impossible, at worst very unhealthy.

 

[Palestrina]

I'm not sure why you moved the discussion however I wasn't trying to isolate this issue as only for women. i don't see too many men on the board though so I assumed the audience was women. This is an issue for all people and it is just as important to me, I have a son and don't want him to be exposed to negative portrayals of women if I can help it.

Why are you against feminism? It's due to the "work of feminists" that women have the right to vote, get an education, earn equal wages among other hard earned rights. Your arguments are based on a small sampling of a very informative documentary with the participation of very admirable women and honestly I don't think you get the point.

Maybe you're not part of the work force, but I am and many of us are. The fact that women can't achieve the same level of success is due in part to having children, no that it's a bad thing, but you're right, we have to take more time off from work, work less hours, and are at times not able to even pursue the same opportunities as men due to these reasons. However, wouldn't it be nice if we were given adequate leave from work and still be able to enter the race?

 

[Gen79]

However, wouldn't it be nice if we were given adequate leave from work and still be able to enter the race?

Yes! Definitely. I will be back soon.

 

[Gen79]

I'm not sure why you moved the discussion however I wasn't trying to isolate this issue as only for women. i don't see too many men on the board though so I assumed the audience was women. This is an issue for all people and it is just as important to me, I have a son and don't want him to be exposed to negative portrayals of women if I can help it.

I moved it because you didn't want me to change the discussion. I know I can sometimes go on tangents so I thought I'd leave the thread about the film and come here to have a more general discussion about feminism, but still about the film. I do know that you aimed it at women because thats who is here, of course.

Why are you against feminism? It's due to the "work of feminists" that women have the right to vote, get an education, earn equal wages among other hard earned rights. Your arguments are based on a small sampling of a very informative documentary with the participation of very admirable women and honestly I don't think you get the point.

Maybe I don't get the point. That's entirely possible. I looked at trying to watch it and I can't. They're busy trying to make money from screenings before they release it on DVD. Otherwise I would watch it. But you're right, I'm sure that watching the whole thing would give me a better idea of what they're trying to say. My arguments are based on my life experience and opinions, not the trailer, but I get what you're saying. I'm not agaist feminism, really, I'm against extremism though. I happen to think that its a bit extreme to say that objectification of women in the media is why 50% of the high level jobs aren't held by women. I think that's a simplistic view actually. There are many reasons women don't hold half of every position out there. And there are also many sections of society that the media victimizes.

Maybe you're not part of the work force, but I am and many of us are. The fact that women can't achieve the same level of success is due in part to having children, no that it's a bad thing, but you're right, we have to take more time off from work, work less hours, and are at times not able to even pursue the same opportunities as men due to these reasons. However, wouldn't it be nice if we were given adequate leave from work and still be able to enter the race?

I do think that women should be able to be a part of the rat race (ick) even with children. As I said we have more time off here and most women go back part time. And yet its America who is 90th in women in legislature. Where you get 6 - 12 weeks off and go back full time or not at all in most cases. However, if women decide not to have children, they often times can achieve high level jobs, can't they? And men can decide to take time off to be with their children, they just don't. So just how unequal is it really? In Norway couples can split their 18 - 24 months off and its normal for men to take up to a year to spend time with the child. Maybe we should all do this. Maybe this would make it all a bit more equal. Maybe it would just mean people without children get all the high end jobs. Children are a choice, and maybe we can't actually have it all.

I am in the workforce, though my future is entrepreneurial in nature and so I've never found a point where I thought I was looking at a glass ceiling. I also hardly think that my daughter is at risk of thinking that her looks are the most important part of her, as her dad and I are jeans and t-shirts types who's worst argument is about politics, not the bank account or who did the laundry (he does). That doesn't mean its not an important issue in the world, I happen to hate the fact that you can usually get a boys version and a girls version of most toys, but not always a unisex version. Even for infants! Ugh.

 

[Gen79]

On a side note, thinking about it more, what I was trying to say before is that the media said to me that I was supposed to need career fulfillment and I've found this to be untrue. But this is contradictory to the documentary which is trying to say that the media's portrayal of women affects our self image in a way that is damaging to a person seeking a high level career. So I guess that's why I don't 100% buy it, because its just not my experience.

 

[MoonMelody]

I have mixed feelings about feminism. Feminism, at its best, strives for men and women to have equal opportunities in life, whether that's having a career, not having a career, getting married, remaining single, etc.

Feminism becomes a problem when it turns into the other side of the sexism coin. I have met many self-labeled feminists who are man-hating and bitter, which I find unacceptable.

 

[Palestrina]

I've never met feminists like that. I associate the term feminism with anger, bra burning, and man-bashing. I'm none of those things, and neither are the women in the documentary. I never got the impression from this documentary that I was being urged to go out and get a job. It just provides statistics and how we came to those numbers.

A fascinating part of the documentary not shown in the trailer talked about how when men were sent off to WWII in mass numbers that women in the US had very progressive careers and were providing for their children in a competitive workforce. When men came back from the war they wanted their jobs back so-to-speak. At this time the media started shifting, and began urging women to stay home with their children. By the 1950's all advertisements geared towards women seemed to preach to women that they belong at home, this link shows some extreme (though real) examples. https://www.businesspundit.com/10-most-sexist-print-ads-from-the-1950s/ Television programming followed suit, portraying women as docile stay at home June Cleaver type mothers. The 1950's was a time when women were under great pressure to fit a a stereotype, and since our mothers were little girls at this time it still lingers today.

Even my own mother who was always so proud of me and so supportive of me while I was earning my degrees and gaining success in my career seemed to turn on me when I became pregnant. She'd say "don't go back to work, you have to stay at home with your child now!" and I do understand she means well but as much as I love my son being a SAHM isn't something that fulfills me. I've had to cut way back on hours but I'm keeping myself in the game until I can work more.

 

[Ozzieshunni]

Worth a read to know the real meaning of feminism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism

I'll put a longer reply later.

 

[redpoppy]

Feminism simply means you are searching for equality and fairness for women in a world that has a history of women not getting either. The issues arise because different women have different ideas on what that means. I am a feminist. I am a sahm. I am married to the most amazing man I know or have ever met. I have a whole bunch of sometimes quite rigid views on what feminism entails. I am sadly more likely to be a misogynist than a man hater but those are my issues.

Having said all that, a woman campaigning for women not to get stoned to death for having an affair are feminists. Women who oppose the driving ban in saudi Arabia are feminists. Women who fight againt female honour killings or tribal rapes are feminists. Women who think a man and a woman doing the same job with the same success should be paid equally are feminists. All types of amazing, compassionate, caring women are feminists.

And yes I understand that some feminists are man haters and some feminists are strippers and some have all types of views or beliefs which any individual women would find offensive and insane. But to start on feminists is ridiculous because we are not one homogenous group of people with the same ideas.

As for the overtly sexual images that drown our society, they are bad for our daughters and we must try and make them resilient and try to make them understand that the value of a woman is not solely on her waist to hip ratio or her cup size and that being a woman is more than being sexually available and is more than any one thing. That to be an individualm to be intelligent, to be charming, witty and charismatic can make you superior not just beign a size zero with big silicone boobs which seems to be the overriding message society gives girls and women.

And yes men can be trapped with expectations but their expectations are more varied and more interesting.

 

[Palestrina]

Well said ^^!!!

 

[Eve]

I don't even know what to say lol... I think some are extreme and whatnot, but yeah... that's all I can think of to say.

 

[JackiePed]

I agree that we are responsible for teaching our daughters (and our sons!) that we are more than our physical appearance...that there isn't "one right way to look"...and that intelligence and confidence are far more valuable than perfect measurements.

However... that is not a "plague of 'these days'" nor is it something we can blame on our evil media. There has always been 'ideal physiques'. Long ago, the most attractive were the chubby ones, as it displayed wealth and 'having excess'.
Also, not too long ago (Civil War era-ish), it was ideal to be very pale skinned...it showed you did not have to work manual labor. And, back then.. a 16-18-inch waist was prized!! HOLY CRAP... do you KNOW how tiny a 16 inch waist is??? I'm proud when I'm IN the 20's.... let alone even CLOSE to 16

So... it's always been there. We just must teach our children to look past it...so our women don't devalue themselves and our men don't fixate on the shallowest aspects of women.

BUT... on the feminist aspect of this... we mustn't go the opposite direction and drill into our daughters that staying home is 'less than' having a career, or that spending time to make yourself look as lovely as you want to is shallow or petty. That doing something just because your husband loves it is 'selling out', or that being physically attracted to someone on the spot is an indication that you are shallow.

I have never been supermodel thin, nor Stepford-Wife "together". I am well-educated with a Master's degree, a love for reading and research, and I had a successful career.
But right now... I love being home with my family. I get a strange satisfaction out of seeing fresh vacuum-stripes on my living-room carpet, and I love to look pretty for my husband. I take pride in cooking a great meal for my family, and swell with satisfaction when someone tells me I'm 'such a good mom'.

I think we need to encourage our children to think for themselves, to value what they value, and to not allow ANYONE... be it us, feminists, men, the popular crowd, the anti-assimilated best friend, or the media to dictate who they are, and what they want to pursue in life.

 

[redpoppy]

^^^ excellent post! But i do think the far reach of today's media, and the increasingly pervading pornification of society means women and men are bombarded with far more information and far more incessantly than ever before. Once you may have seen occasional magazines and had to live in the shadow of the prettiest girls in your community but that can't compare to watching tv, seeing advert in every possible free space available, getting emails, masses upon masses of magazines and newspapers and internet outlets. And increasingly sexual too where sexuality being defined instead of of explored is the norm. I sometimes wonder what my own sexuality would have been like if it were left alone rather than shaped by bombardment.

 

[Palestrina]

In high school I used to love receiving the Victoria's Secret Catalogue. I thought the women in it were gorgeous, they really were. Last night I happened to turn on the tv and the Victoria's Secret fashion show was on, and I was floored by how skinny the models were! They don't look anything like what the models looked like 20yrs ago! They are just skin and bones now!

So like JackiePed says, I have no problem upkeeping my career and being a dedicated mother and wife, I can't tell you how much enjoyment I get out of making the perfect roast chicken I love keeping a clean house, and I take very good care of myself, I always treat myself to massages, facials, waxings, and visit a great hair salon. I love my name-brand clothes and my spiky heels! However, the perception of beauty has changed so much that 99.9% of the women can't keep up with how skinny or beautiful the media tells us we have to be!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2gD80jv5ZQ

 

[Yammas]

II just wanted to make a couple of points on this debate;

1) there are spectrums with every issue as said above - man haters to homemakers who enjoy looking after their man - so we cant just pick and choose or tar everyone who beleives in a cause with the same brush.

2) The media does have a lot to answer for as they only portray one image of beauty not all for example in most of the 'high end' acvertising ive seen your hard pressed to see a person of colour unless their famous. but its also down to individauls to embrace how they look instead of cahsing an ideal that doesnt exist and feeling bad about themselves.

3) I also think that society as a whole should provide a more wholesome view of women with men bing encouraged to take more parental responsibility so that women are given more of an opportunity in the workforce and can be more flexible.

4) There are also men who enjoy being pampered and cooking and all the other things associated with the 'female role' and would rather stay home as well as single fathers so it's not fair to assume women will have to take time off for their children when there are men out htere who have to do the same.

ETA: that video is exactly why i pay no attention to advertising, the woman in the photo doesnt evn look like the woman on the billboard.

 

[JackiePed]

I love the quote from Cindy Crawford where she says, "I wish *I* looked like Cindy Crawford!"

 

[Bex84]

There are different types of femenism. I would label myself a femenist but I believe feminism is about the right to choice. I want to stay at home with my child as much as possible but if I was in the work place at the moment I would expect equal right to men. I taught primary and when I was with the older age group I was disgusted that little girls ofter said they were not preety due to they were not thin enough, preety enough or had big enough breasts. In the younger age group I had little girls say I cant like blue since I'm a girl. Little boys would talk about what were mummy and daddy jobs. I refuse to bring up my little girl like this. She is beautiful just as she is and she can do anything she wants. I am greatful to have had a chance to have an education. When I applied for teaching one university actually had on there website male candidates will be given preference, due to primary teaching being a female dominated job. You can have a female candidate go for a place and be told no even if they are better than a male candadate, its positive sexism (or so called)