Marks and spencer allows Muslim works to refuse selling pork and alcohol to customers

[hayz_baby]

I think a lot of the time it goes down to this countries fear on political correctness vs the extremisit vs the media hyping these up. When I saw the article I really did just roll my eyes.
I read another article tho about it on my sky news app (don't think I can get a direct link) that stated it wasn't actually store policy and m &is apologised and what should of happened is the member of staff work in a position that isn't the till so her beliefs aren't compromised. This policy makes sense IMO and is asda and morrisons policy that if ur belief is not handle a certain item then they will find you a position in the store where u can work without compromise. Makes sense to me as it's exactly the same as an under 18 yo working the till. Legally they can but most stores have a policy which says u can till ur 18 as it is quicker. U can't always guarantee someone will b free to authorise/handle a product

 

[pollydolly]

I'm vegetarian & when I worked in retail had i refused to serve anybody something meat related I wouldn't of been treated kindly by management.

I'm a very picky veggie although I am not a pushy one whatsoever - people will be who they are despite everyone else's life decisions.

I very much don't like handling meat product - even sandwiches in containers - I just don't like it. But I would still scan it for a customer, after all that is my job as customer service...

When I go to the supermarket with my OH, if he has something meat related (ie ham slices for our dogs) in the basket, I will avoid it on the conveyer belt & he can scan it last. (Seems picky I know, but I am! )

So personally I find this policy very... Unnecessary shall we say. I doubt very much they'd be willing to add a policy saying veggies don't have to handle anything meaty & vegans don't have to handle milk/cheese/dairy product!

Sorry for going on xx

 

[JASMAK]

I just feel that is someones RELIGIOUS beliefs are such that they are not wanting to do something, then it up to the workplace to be accommodating. It is under the charter of rights and freedoms (my country)

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/const/page-15.html

But, not serving customers not only is offensive to the customer, but a little unfair since that is what they are there to do. The workplace should have the employee work in a more suitable section, without penalty. That is JMO. We dont see an muslims on the island, and I do not know their beliefs, but I think all religions deserve respect.

 

[JASMAK]

But, also if people are hired KNOWING that they would have to do it, then, no I don't think they should be accommodating, unless it is a newly taken up religion. If these people are working out of their usual position, then that isn't too fair to the employee.

 

[emyandpotato]

I just feel that is someones RELIGIOUS beliefs are such that they are not wanting to do something, then it up to the workplace to be accommodating. It is under the charter of rights and freedoms (my country)

I don't think that religious beliefs are any more important or should be accommodated more so than moral beliefs that are not a consequence of religion, such as vegetarianism.

 

[JASMAK]

well, they are in such that religion is considered a 'right'. so, legally, they are more important than morals, in a way that one could sue. So, for the workplace, that is where they may have a duty to accomodate.

 

[Eternal]

well, they are in such that religion is considered a 'right'. so, legally, they are more important than morals, in a way that one could sue. So, for the workplace, that is where they may have a duty to accomodate.

I understand what you are saying with legalities, but shouldn't vegetarians have the same rights?

 

[JASMAK]

well, they are in such that religion is considered a 'right'. so, legally, they are more important than morals, in a way that one could sue. So, for the workplace, that is where they may have a duty to accomodate.

I understand what you are saying with legalities, but shouldn't vegetarians have the same rights?

Is being a vegetarian a right? If it is part of religion it is. If you don't want to work serving meat, butter, eggs, I don't think there is a legal 'duty to accomodate' unless it is for religious reasons...that is the difference.

There was a lady who was 7th day adventist and she could only work certain hours....they had to legally accomodate her. If I strolled in to my employer and simply said I hate working Saturdays and I don't feel anyone should, and I want you to make changes on my moral belief that people shouldn't work Saturdays...there is a big difference.


Morals are not legal...they are timeless and universal
Human rights are legal...set up by governments, and vary on countries

 

[emyandpotato]

well, they are in such that religion is considered a 'right'. so, legally, they are more important than morals, in a way that one could sue. So, for the workplace, that is where they may have a duty to accomodate.

I understand what you are saying with legalities, but shouldn't vegetarians have the same rights?

Is being a vegetarian a right? If it is part of religion it is. If you don't want to work serving meat, butter, eggs, I don't think there is a legal 'duty to accomodate' unless it is for religious reasons...that is the difference.

There was a lady who was 7th day adventist and she could only work certain hours....they had to legally accomodate her. If I strolled in to my employer and simply said I hate working Saturdays and I don't feel anyone should, and I want you to make changes on my moral belief that people shouldn't work Saturdays...there is a big difference.


Morals are not legal...they are timeless and universal
Human rights are legal...set up by governments, and vary on countries

Okay well first of all not wanting to do something and calling it a moral doesn't make it a moral. And I do believe that a true moral belief should be accommodated in the same way that a religious one is, whether recognised legally or not.

 

[JASMAK]

well, they are in such that religion is considered a 'right'. so, legally, they are more important than morals, in a way that one could sue. So, for the workplace, that is where they may have a duty to accomodate.

I understand what you are saying with legalities, but shouldn't vegetarians have the same rights?

Is being a vegetarian a right? If it is part of religion it is. If you don't want to work serving meat, butter, eggs, I don't think there is a legal 'duty to accomodate' unless it is for religious reasons...that is the difference.

There was a lady who was 7th day adventist and she could only work certain hours....they had to legally accomodate her. If I strolled in to my employer and simply said I hate working Saturdays and I don't feel anyone should, and I want you to make changes on my moral belief that people shouldn't work Saturdays...there is a big difference.


Morals are not legal...they are timeless and universal
Human rights are legal...set up by governments, and vary on countries

Okay well first of all not wanting to do something and calling it a moral doesn't make it a moral. And I do believe that a true moral belief should be accommodated in the same way that a religious one is, whether recognised legally or not.

I am not saying no one should believe that....what I am saying is there is a LEGAL difference....that makes it differnet....no matter what you believe. What are your morals? What is your neighbours morals? What about the crack heads on the street? Murderers? What about their morals? Gets kind of tricky.

This store may have a duty to accomodate. That is what I am saying. Personally, if I was vegetarian still (was for over 20 years)....I might not want to apply to that position to begin with. I actually did serve meat at the time....but it was not 'against' any religion I practiced....just my morals. And, it wasnt a position that was forced. I applied and got the job, knowing that it entails serving meat. My moral was to not eat meat, but it wasnt breaking a religious belief which is my RIGHT as a human.....like the canadian mounties (police) wearing turbans. That is their religious RIGHT. It is protected, so someone else, who believes muslims (just an example) cant wear their face thingys (sorry, don't know what they are called) at work. That right is protected, by law. See the difference?

 

[Button#]

That's a really interesting point. Why legally speaking are religious moral decisions more respected than non religious? I suppose it's the fact that there are representatives for religions whereas individuals such as vegetarians are on their own in these sorts of matters.

 

[Eternal]

well, they are in such that religion is considered a 'right'. so, legally, they are more important than morals, in a way that one could sue. So, for the workplace, that is where they may have a duty to accomodate.

I understand what you are saying with legalities, but shouldn't vegetarians have the same rights?

Is being a vegetarian a right? If it is part of religion it is. If you don't want to work serving meat, butter, eggs, I don't think there is a legal 'duty to accomodate' unless it is for religious reasons...that is the difference.

There was a lady who was 7th day adventist and she could only work certain hours....they had to legally accomodate her. If I strolled in to my employer and simply said I hate working Saturdays and I don't feel anyone should, and I want you to make changes on my moral belief that people shouldn't work Saturdays...there is a big difference.


Morals are not legal...they are timeless and universal
Human rights are legal...set up by governments, and vary on countries

Okay well first of all not wanting to do something and calling it a moral doesn't make it a moral. And I do believe that a true moral belief should be accommodated in the same way that a religious one is, whether recognised legally or not.

I am not saying no one should believe that....what I am saying is there is a LEGAL difference....that makes it differnet....no matter what you believe. What are your morals? What is your neighbours morals? What about the crack heads on the street? Murderers? What about their morals? Gets kind of tricky.

This store may have a duty to accomodate. That is what I am saying. Personally, if I was vegetarian still (was for over 20 years)....I might not want to apply to that position to begin with. I actually did serve meat at the time....but it was not 'against' any religion I practiced....just my morals. And, it wasnt a position that was forced. I applied and got the job, knowing that it entails serving meat. My moral was to not eat meat, but it wasnt breaking a religious belief which is my RIGHT as a human.....like the canadian mounties (police) wearing turbans. That is their religious RIGHT. It is protected, so someone else, who believes muslims (just an example) cant wear their face thingys (sorry, don't know what they are called) at work. That right is protected, by law. See the difference?

I don't think employers have to grant any of those right though, I'm a mormon, so we believe in keeping the sabbath day holy, but in all my employments, my friends, family, husband etc, none of is have been give the right not to work a Sunday. Some people in my religion choose careers and jobs which allow then to to not work the Sunday, others like myself (pre children I was a nurse) just work them, I don't think hospital should close on a Sunday so I can go to church, but I would never take extra overtime in a Sunday even if I needed the money, I would only work a Sunday of I was rota-ed for it. So I don't know what employers legal duties are but I don't think they have to give you what you want just because you want to go to church.

Also I don't see the difference between religion and morals in this instance, someone not wanting to eat meat because their belief is that animals have feelings and eating them is murder (I'm generalising and exaggerating here ) and someone who doesn't because god says not to, what's the difference really.? It's all beliefs? Not every religious person follows a specific religion or church either.

 

[Eternal]

That's a really interesting point. Why legally speaking are religious moral decisions more respected than non religious? I suppose it's the fact that there are representatives for religions whereas individuals such as vegetarians are on their own in these sorts of matters.

It's interesting though isn't it? I mean you could call yourself Christian and not follow and specific church or organisation.

I know that I'm one instance someone who drinks alcohol against their religion could be condemned or at least feel that way (depending on the religion), but I'm sure some vegetarians feel like putting meet in their mouths would be soul destroying (for want of a better word).

 

[JASMAK]

well, they are in such that religion is considered a 'right'. so, legally, they are more important than morals, in a way that one could sue. So, for the workplace, that is where they may have a duty to accomodate.

I understand what you are saying with legalities, but shouldn't vegetarians have the same rights?

Is being a vegetarian a right? If it is part of religion it is. If you don't want to work serving meat, butter, eggs, I don't think there is a legal 'duty to accomodate' unless it is for religious reasons...that is the difference.

There was a lady who was 7th day adventist and she could only work certain hours....they had to legally accomodate her. If I strolled in to my employer and simply said I hate working Saturdays and I don't feel anyone should, and I want you to make changes on my moral belief that people shouldn't work Saturdays...there is a big difference.


Morals are not legal...they are timeless and universal
Human rights are legal...set up by governments, and vary on countries

Okay well first of all not wanting to do something and calling it a moral doesn't make it a moral. And I do believe that a true moral belief should be accommodated in the same way that a religious one is, whether recognised legally or not.

I am not saying no one should believe that....what I am saying is there is a LEGAL difference....that makes it differnet....no matter what you believe. What are your morals? What is your neighbours morals? What about the crack heads on the street? Murderers? What about their morals? Gets kind of tricky.

This store may have a duty to accomodate. That is what I am saying. Personally, if I was vegetarian still (was for over 20 years)....I might not want to apply to that position to begin with. I actually did serve meat at the time....but it was not 'against' any religion I practiced....just my morals. And, it wasnt a position that was forced. I applied and got the job, knowing that it entails serving meat. My moral was to not eat meat, but it wasnt breaking a religious belief which is my RIGHT as a human.....like the canadian mounties (police) wearing turbans. That is their religious RIGHT. It is protected, so someone else, who believes muslims (just an example) cant wear their face thingys (sorry, don't know what they are called) at work. That right is protected, by law. See the difference?

I don't think employers have to grant any of those right though, I'm a mormon, so we believe in keeping the sabbath day holy, but in all my employments, my friends, family, husband etc, none of is have been give the right not to work a Sunday. Some people in my religion choose careers and jobs which allow then to to not work the Sunday, others like myself (pre children I was a nurse) just work them, I don't think hospital should close on a Sunday so I can go to church, but I would never take extra overtime in a Sunday even if I needed the money, I would only work a Sunday of I was rota-ed for it. So I don't know what employers legal duties are but I don't think they have to give you what you want just because you want to go to church.

Also I don't see the difference between religion and morals in this instance, someone not wanting to eat meat because their belief is that animals have feelings and eating them is murder (I'm generalising and exaggerating here ) and someone who doesn't because god says not to, what's the difference really.? It's all beliefs? Not every religious person follows a specific religion or church either.

Well, employers have to where I work....or they would be sued big time and its against the law!
And the second paragraph, is because the LAW (here anyways) says so! If you feel different, lobby to change laws!

 

[Eternal]

well, they are in such that religion is considered a 'right'. so, legally, they are more important than morals, in a way that one could sue. So, for the workplace, that is where they may have a duty to accomodate.

I understand what you are saying with legalities, but shouldn't vegetarians have the same rights?

Is being a vegetarian a right? If it is part of religion it is. If you don't want to work serving meat, butter, eggs, I don't think there is a legal 'duty to accomodate' unless it is for religious reasons...that is the difference.

There was a lady who was 7th day adventist and she could only work certain hours....they had to legally accomodate her. If I strolled in to my employer and simply said I hate working Saturdays and I don't feel anyone should, and I want you to make changes on my moral belief that people shouldn't work Saturdays...there is a big difference.


Morals are not legal...they are timeless and universal
Human rights are legal...set up by governments, and vary on countries

Okay well first of all not wanting to do something and calling it a moral doesn't make it a moral. And I do believe that a true moral belief should be accommodated in the same way that a religious one is, whether recognised legally or not.

I am not saying no one should believe that....what I am saying is there is a LEGAL difference....that makes it differnet....no matter what you believe. What are your morals? What is your neighbours morals? What about the crack heads on the street? Murderers? What about their morals? Gets kind of tricky.

This store may have a duty to accomodate. That is what I am saying. Personally, if I was vegetarian still (was for over 20 years)....I might not want to apply to that position to begin with. I actually did serve meat at the time....but it was not 'against' any religion I practiced....just my morals. And, it wasnt a position that was forced. I applied and got the job, knowing that it entails serving meat. My moral was to not eat meat, but it wasnt breaking a religious belief which is my RIGHT as a human.....like the canadian mounties (police) wearing turbans. That is their religious RIGHT. It is protected, so someone else, who believes muslims (just an example) cant wear their face thingys (sorry, don't know what they are called) at work. That right is protected, by law. See the difference?

I don't think employers have to grant any of those right though, I'm a mormon, so we believe in keeping the sabbath day holy, but in all my employments, my friends, family, husband etc, none of is have been give the right not to work a Sunday. Some people in my religion choose careers and jobs which allow then to to not work the Sunday, others like myself (pre children I was a nurse) just work them, I don't think hospital should close on a Sunday so I can go to church, but I would never take extra overtime in a Sunday even if I needed the money, I would only work a Sunday of I was rota-ed for it. So I don't know what employers legal duties are but I don't think they have to give you what you want just because you want to go to church.

Also I don't see the difference between religion and morals in this instance, someone not wanting to eat meat because their belief is that animals have feelings and eating them is murder (I'm generalising and exaggerating here ) and someone who doesn't because god says not to, what's the difference really.? It's all beliefs? Not every religious person follows a specific religion or church either.

Well, employers have to where I work....or they would be sued big time and its against the law!
And the second paragraph, is because the LAW (here anyways) says so! If you feel different, lobby to change laws!

Are you in the US?

I'm not interested in changing it, I have no issue working Sundays, I think if you feel strongly about something you choose a career that works around that. I'm surprised (assuming you are the us) has such strong employment laws as that.

It's really interesting how different things are country to country.

 

[JASMAK]

well, they are in such that religion is considered a 'right'. so, legally, they are more important than morals, in a way that one could sue. So, for the workplace, that is where they may have a duty to accomodate.

I understand what you are saying with legalities, but shouldn't vegetarians have the same rights?

Is being a vegetarian a right? If it is part of religion it is. If you don't want to work serving meat, butter, eggs, I don't think there is a legal 'duty to accomodate' unless it is for religious reasons...that is the difference.

There was a lady who was 7th day adventist and she could only work certain hours....they had to legally accomodate her. If I strolled in to my employer and simply said I hate working Saturdays and I don't feel anyone should, and I want you to make changes on my moral belief that people shouldn't work Saturdays...there is a big difference.


Morals are not legal...they are timeless and universal
Human rights are legal...set up by governments, and vary on countries

Okay well first of all not wanting to do something and calling it a moral doesn't make it a moral. And I do believe that a true moral belief should be accommodated in the same way that a religious one is, whether recognised legally or not.

I am not saying no one should believe that....what I am saying is there is a LEGAL difference....that makes it differnet....no matter what you believe. What are your morals? What is your neighbours morals? What about the crack heads on the street? Murderers? What about their morals? Gets kind of tricky.

This store may have a duty to accomodate. That is what I am saying. Personally, if I was vegetarian still (was for over 20 years)....I might not want to apply to that position to begin with. I actually did serve meat at the time....but it was not 'against' any religion I practiced....just my morals. And, it wasnt a position that was forced. I applied and got the job, knowing that it entails serving meat. My moral was to not eat meat, but it wasnt breaking a religious belief which is my RIGHT as a human.....like the canadian mounties (police) wearing turbans. That is their religious RIGHT. It is protected, so someone else, who believes muslims (just an example) cant wear their face thingys (sorry, don't know what they are called) at work. That right is protected, by law. See the difference?

I don't think employers have to grant any of those right though, I'm a mormon, so we believe in keeping the sabbath day holy, but in all my employments, my friends, family, husband etc, none of is have been give the right not to work a Sunday. Some people in my religion choose careers and jobs which allow then to to not work the Sunday, others like myself (pre children I was a nurse) just work them, I don't think hospital should close on a Sunday so I can go to church, but I would never take extra overtime in a Sunday even if I needed the money, I would only work a Sunday of I was rota-ed for it. So I don't know what employers legal duties are but I don't think they have to give you what you want just because you want to go to church.

Also I don't see the difference between religion and morals in this instance, someone not wanting to eat meat because their belief is that animals have feelings and eating them is murder (I'm generalising and exaggerating here ) and someone who doesn't because god says not to, what's the difference really.? It's all beliefs? Not every religious person follows a specific religion or church either.

Well, employers have to where I work....or they would be sued big time and its against the law!
And the second paragraph, is because the LAW (here anyways) says so! If you feel different, lobby to change laws!

Are you in the US?

I'm not interested in changing it, I have no issue working Sundays, I think if you feel strongly about something you choose a career that works around that. I'm surprised (assuming you are the us) has such strong employment laws as that.

It's really interesting how different things are country to country.

I would be really surprised if the USA has laws about that. No, I am not Amercian.

 

[Tiff]

Its not the same, but last year we had a lady who worked at our store who was Jehova's Witness. We campaign each season for a hospital for cancer research, because of her religious beliefs she felt it was against her religion and their beliefs to fundraise for it.

My manager allowed it. It wasn't that hard really, we just didn't have her on a cash register where we would ask for donations. She was lovely with customers and a really wonderful employee. So we worked around it.

 

[JASMAK]

Its not the same, but last year we had a lady who worked at our store who was Jehova's Witness. We campaign each season for a hospital for cancer research, because of her religious beliefs she felt it was against her religion and their beliefs to fundraise for it.

My manager allowed it. It wasn't that hard really, we just didn't have her on a cash register where we would ask for donations. She was lovely with customers and a really wonderful employee. So we worked around it.

That's all it really takes. I don't think most people want an unreasonable request...an accomodation is really just what you are saying.

 

[Tiff]

That's what I'm thinking. If they didn't feel comfortable selling booze, surely there are other jobs at the store they could do? Stocking/cleaning etc?

That being said, I can see it being tough if they refused to do any other sort of job and having to potentially have someone else ring through a customer who is wanting to purchase alcohol. There should be a give/take in these situations.

Our employee understood completely and had no issues not running the cash register during the Christmas season. She wasn't snarky or mean about it - it just conflicted with her beliefs and she knew that not all of us shared them.

There was really nothing about it really. We all knew it was against her beliefs so we did the cash register, she felt comfortable not conflicting her beliefs... was quite lovely really.

 

[Kate&Lucas]

It gets a bit daft after a while. It's the whole sense of entitlement, I think, that everyone has these days. It seems surreal that someone can apply for a job knowing what it entails, then refuse to do certain aspects of it because of their own beliefs.

When I was about 19 I took a job as a trainee chef. I lasted about 3 days, until the restaurant owner discovered I was vegetarian. I didn't mind handling meat and did it without question, but it hadn't occurred to me on taking the job that I'd have to taste the food, and obviously I wouldn't do it, so I was sacked. SO many people told me I should have taken him to a tribunal when it happened, and the ridiculous thing is I probably could have done, but he was absolutely right, I couldn't do the job properly. Had I kicked up a fuss he'd probably have been forced to employ me. That's nuts.