Should reproduction be a human right?

[robinator]

Having children is a God-given right, as our bodies were created to do so. Should it be one? Hell, no. I've read up too much lately on organizations (ok, cults) whose goal it is to brainwash every child born into it so that child will grow to be another walking zombie. The wives (ok, sister wives) are impregnated one child after another from the time they are 14 years old for the sole purpose of producing as many females as possible so that sick old men can marry them and establish their celestial kingdoms. These children do not receive school meal programs, are subject to any form of physical abuse and are so mentally and emotionally fucked they cannot function in "normal" society.

Warren Jeffs, are you listening from your prison cell, you sick fuck?

 

[tallybee]

Interesting discussion here ladies! Certainly with the Benefits thing, the UK has a very adverse system, where those on Benefits get more money for each child they have and many of those who work curb their family size because of financial constraints. In that context, having lots of children to be paid for by everyone else should not be seen as a right, though plenty of people do see it as that.

I do think that it would be very sketchy territory to start making rules on who can or can't have children, or how many. Far too big and ugly a can of worms there...

Another context where I have heard the term 'human right' bandied about in realtion to reproduction is in articles about couples struggling to conceive and saying free fertility treatment is their human right. I wholeheartedly disagree with this - and I can empathise (OH and I paid for him to have a vasectomy reversal with no success). Our NHS is way stretched and doesn't need everyone deciding that non-essential and pricey procedures like IVF are human rights

 

[vaniilla]

in a perfect world we wouldn't need adoption because those wanted kids were able to have them and those that didn't weren't, its impossible to say what can be done about it however I think more can be done to discourage and educate people who shouldn't be having kids, nobody has a right to kids, they should be seen as a privilege and something to love/look after not something to neglect or use for other means.

 

[tallybee]

in a perfect world we wouldn't need adoption because those wanted kids were able to have them and those that didn't weren't, its impossible to say what can be done about it however I think more can be done to discourage and educate people who shouldn't be having kids, nobody has a right to kids, they should be seen as a privilege and something to love/look after not something to neglect or use for other means.

Yes. It's actually alarming how badly educated many people are, particularly younger people. Someone I know, pregnant for the first time at 21, said to me in full seriousness that she was surprised it hadn't happened to her sooner as she had thought, until enlightened by a midwife, that you can only get pregnant if you have sex whilst on your period

Easily available, accessible information and contraception is vital if we wish to prevent unplanned/unwanted pregnancies and children suffering the consequences.

 

[Lightworker]

Im going to go out on a limb here and say no I dont think having children is a right, its a privalidge that some such as drug addicts and abbuser dont deserve.
I would even go so far as to say in my own little "in my head ideal world" I think classes on parenting before your allowed to have a child would save so much heartache down the line.

.

I see what you're saying about classes, they do have some classes for moms who have been identified by Social Care as needing extra support. However, id parenting classes were compulsory, who would decide what would be on the curriculum. It goes back to that scenario of one person/one body deciding on behalf of the entire population what is best for children.

I agree, there could be standardized info disseminated, eg, instead of giving out Bounty packs with loads of freebies, they could put in a copy of material that would apply across the board for all babies, eg, issues on love, attachment, bonding, and not just for babyhood but as your child grows. Instead they give out free pamphlets on things which quite frankly (to me at least) are not anywhere near as useful when it comes down to the issue of parenting.

Also, if you enforced lessons, then parenting stops being instinctive, which is what parenting should be. People will be taught to distrust their instincts and parent in line with the curriculum.

Also, I think child abusers only become child abusers once they have the children. So it would be impossible to determine whether or not they would become one until they had a child. Child abusers tend to be offspring of child abusers, and some will continue the cycle of abuse, whilst others will parent totally differently, its not easy to predict, so you can't really restrict the right iykwim?

 

[Nibblenic]

Also, I think child abusers only become child abusers once they have the children. So it would be impossible to determine whether or not they would become one until they had a child. Child abusers tend to be offspring of child abusers, and some will continue the cycle of abuse, whilst others will parent totally differently, its not easy to predict, so you can't really restrict the right iykwim?

Thats very true. My OH was from a very assbusive home both mentally in terms of his mother and physically in terms of his father. Everyone comments on how amazing he is as a father. I couldnt ask for anything more nor could Lo. However his brother only lasted 3 months as a father and was abusive to both mother and baby.

I dont think any adults set out to be abusive when they decide to have children but it most certainly happens a huge amount.

I was in ASda the other day and saw women practically snarling at thier children. Speaking o them and looking at them no better than you would a dog. Its sad to see.Especially when you think these children grow-up thinking this is how to behave and continue the same behaviour in thier lives

 

[BabyJayne]

It's important to remember that the scenes you see with mothers and children out and about are just snapshots of their lives, not the full picture.

Back o/t - I suppose it is a basic human right - we are here to reproduce and stripped down to the fundamentals, that includes everyone.

However, we live and function in a community, a society, where we need to put in as well as take out. It is a basic right to reproduce, which comes with a responsibility to support those children. If this is not possible you have to rely on the state. Having your children provided for is not a basic human right - it is one that is earned. Not always financially, as in having paid into the system (although this is preferable), but maybe through helping and giving to the community you live in, volunteering, fundraising etc.

I don't agree with restricting who can have children and who can't - that is a curtailment of rights that is a step to far. But I do think that many human rights are earned - by acting as a human being living in society and living by that society's rules. The question is not should reproduction be a human right - it just is by the very nature of us being human. The question is how do we educate, support and make the system fit for its purpose - and that is the million dollar question that we are no closer to answering today as we were decades ago.

 

[PeanutBean]

Absolutely it's a human right (for those who can).

Stepping past the financial/abuse arguments already mentioned here, what about genetics? Should we oblige the world's population to undertake genetic screening and any or are imperfect shouldn't be allowed to propogate? Going back to the other stuff, how can it be a human right in one country with a fair welfare system but not in another? It's ridiculous, it has to be, and is, a fundamental right regardless of how distasteful some find others as parents.

As a footnote, our marvellous benefits system, since the stories slashed it, mean I can't afford the childcare for two children and will have to give up work instead. Make work pay eh?

 

[smokey]

Im going to go out on a limb here and say no I dont think having children is a right, its a privalidge that some such as drug addicts and abbuser dont deserve.
I would even go so far as to say in my own little "in my head ideal world" I think classes on parenting before your allowed to have a child would save so much heartache down the line.

.

I see what you're saying about classes, they do have some classes for moms who have been identified by Social Care as needing extra support. However, id parenting classes were compulsory, who would decide what would be on the curriculum. It goes back to that scenario of one person/one body deciding on behalf of the entire population what is best for children.

I agree, there could be standardized info disseminated, eg, instead of giving out Bounty packs with loads of freebies, they could put in a copy of material that would apply across the board for all babies, eg, issues on love, attachment, bonding, and not just for babyhood but as your child grows. Instead they give out free pamphlets on things which quite frankly (to me at least) are not anywhere near as useful when it comes down to the issue of parenting.

Also, if you enforced lessons, then parenting stops being instinctive, which is what parenting should be. People will be taught to distrust their instincts and parent in line with the curriculum.

Also, I think child abusers only become child abusers once they have the children. So it would be impossible to determine whether or not they would become one until they had a child. Child abusers tend to be offspring of child abusers, and some will continue the cycle of abuse, whilst others will parent totally differently, its not easy to predict, so you can't really restrict the right iykwim?

I was more refering to abusers as in violant people and those with tendancies to harm either knowingly or just with a short fuse type of temper.
Like I say its just a in my own little ideal world type thing but you have to admit some form of psycological, emotional testing before being allowed to have children ( I know how this sounds and would never be allowed to happen) would save some children alot of pain, hurt and even their lifes.

 

[tallybee]

I think it all comes down to the fundamental concept that rights and responsibilities are two sides of the same coin.

Too much, in today's society, people are so obsessed by their rights that the responsibilities on the other side of it never cross their mind

 

[futuremama88]

I hate the word "right." There is no such thing as a human "right." All this talk of "human rights" is man-made sophism and childish nonsense.

Reproduction is certainly one of the strongest of instincts, and every virile people wants to grow and expand itself through high birthrates. The birthrates in European countries is too low for us to even sustain ourselves, so there shouldn't be any complaining about people who have what you deem as 'too many kids.'

In about 200 years there will be none of us left, so if my money goes towards supporting low income members of the population I don't mind so long as they are healthy and European.

The only thing that I don't like is that we are expected to fund the breeding of people in other countries. Our own problems come first.

I don't believe in birth control. The fit shouldn't be expected to restrict their growth in order to cater to the less fit. If there was no birth control, the resultant competition for resources would ensure that the fit came out on top.

I don't expect anybody to agree with me.

 

[Lightworker]

lol - i know its not funny (mainly because I personally believe your post is crawling with inaccuracies and perhaps some prejudice) but I commend the self-awareness evidenced in your last sentence. You made me chuckle

 

[tallybee]

 

[smokey]

I just find it hard to come to terms with the idea of everyone having the right to have children when there are so many out there that would make great parents and cant have them yet those that make lousey parents popping them out all other the place.
It took us 8 agonising years to have our son and in that time a drug and alcohol abbusive neighbor had 6 children, everysingle one of them taken into care because she beat them, was constantly off her head, had drug dealers coming and going all the time, spent most of her money on drugs and booze to the point the kids where often outside in filthy tatty clothes looking half starved.
SS took them all away even to the point of her last pregnancy she even had a court order to have the baby taken the moment it was born.
It broke my heart to know she can just pop them out and not care a bit for them and others would do anything to have them and keep them safe so nope I just cant see having children as a human right when some see them as a burden or a free ride.

 

[PeanutBean]

I guess smokey that's because you and lots of other people put an emotional/moral slant on it but really it's just biology. I know that sounds harsh and of course for those who desperately want kids it's going to be hard seeing not-so-nice people having them but it is still just biology when it comes down to it and nature doesn't judge. It's the way we superimpose our society rules on to natural functions. I'm not saying it's right or wrong either way, it's just what we do but we're just animals like any other.

 

[smokey]

I guess smokey that's because you and lots of other people put an emotional/moral slant on it but really it's just biology. I know that sounds harsh and of course for those who desperately want kids it's going to be hard seeing not-so-nice people having them but it is still just biology when it comes down to it and nature doesn't judge. It's the way we superimpose our society rules on to natural functions. I'm not saying it's right or wrong either way, it's just what we do but we're just animals like any other.

I agree but I also just dont see why that woman should be allowed to continue to have child after child just to use as a punching bag.
I know most dont agree but I just feel that sometimes forces other then nature have to step in to prevent such things.

 

[Eternal]

Its difficult ... My BIL has special needs, he is semi - independant, he lives in his own flat but has people check on him, he still plays with lego, watches cbeebies and other childrens programmes, he had the understanding of a 7 year old.

He had a "girlfriend" who also has special needs, she is a bit worse than him and still lives at home. he talked of marrying her etc.

I have less of a problem with that happening if he/she was sterilised, it may sound harsh but they both lack the physical, mental and emtional skills to be able to raise a child.

So i guess in some situations it shouldnt be, after all they are both adults.

In this circumstance both sets of parents said no and they eventually decided against it themselves. but still, that situation could have happened.

 

[Ramen]

No offense, but I'm getting "A Handmaiden's Tale" vibes off this thread in regards to deeming certain groups of people unfit parents and redistributing reproductive rights/children to more desirable parents socioeconomically/physically/etc when all you need to be a parent is love, patience, and the ability to sacrifice.

I guess it somewhat touches home for me because I risk passing on Marfan Syndrome/Tourettes to my children and there is always the argument for trying to eliminate genetic diseases. I sometimes feel my doctor's are judging me for my age (under 25), and my 50% potential to pass on Marfan Syndrome despite us having a normal life expectancy now.

Malicious child abusers don't have a right to put a child in harms way. A mother with paralysis certainly does have a right to keep her children with her. Infertile couples do not have a right to a child on belief of superiority.