5 year old shoots dead 2 year old sister...

[staralfur]

Yesterday a 3 year old boy in Florida got ahold of his uncle's gun and shot and killed himself.

This happens much too often...

 

[Randianne]

I'm not a gun ban advocate. I think the emphasis needs to be on gun education, responsibility, and actually enforcing our current gun laws. That said, if a child gets ahold of a gun because of the caregiver's negligence, that caregiver should not be allowed to own guns ever again. I think the same about people who injure or kill someone while driving drunk or high. If you cannot be responsible with dangerous objects, you should not have them.

I understand that this is not primarily an American board, but I will say that those of you who want a gun ban in America have no idea what the repercussions would be. It would throw this country into a civil war and that will hugely impact the rest of the world's economy. Not to mention that you would see a death toll in the hundreds of thousands if not millions. A gun ban in America will increase the number of deaths, not reduce them.

 

[Tittie]

Wow what a sad set of stories.

I just can't understand how it is legal to have guns on the market specifically for children. And who in their right mind buys a 5 year old a rifle. Even if you did buy your 5 year old a gun why would you put bullets in it??? I don't get it

Rip little one x

 

[Piper84]

I'm not a gun ban advocate. I think the emphasis needs to be on gun education, responsibility, and actually enforcing our current gun laws. That said, if a child gets ahold of a gun because of the caregiver's negligence, that caregiver should not be allowed to own guns ever again. I think the same about people who injure or kill someone while driving drunk or high. If you cannot be responsible with dangerous objects, you should not have them.

I understand that this is not primarily an American board, but I will say that those of you who want a gun ban in America have no idea what the repercussions would be. It would throw this country into a civil war and that will hugely impact the rest of the world's economy. Not to mention that you would see a death toll in the hundreds of thousands if not millions. A gun ban in America will increase the number of deaths, not reduce them.

I'm interested to know what form you think this civil war would take. Would certain states start ceding from the union? Would NRA members declare war on non-NRA members? Civil war doesn't just break out in intact democracies.

I'm also interested to know how police would go about enforcing laws such as those decreeing that loaded guns have to be locked away. Door-to-door checks? Or do you wait until people have been killed before enforcing the law?

 

[Yammas]

@Piper84 Im interested in that point too I know that there are a lot of pro gun people in the US but I dont know if theyd really go to war more likely theyd just hide what weaponry they have away somewhere.

Those laws sound really awkward to enforce theyd probably rely on neighbours coming forward with information. Locking loaded guns away should be common sense though imo.

 

[Randianne]

I'm not a gun ban advocate. I think the emphasis needs to be on gun education, responsibility, and actually enforcing our current gun laws. That said, if a child gets ahold of a gun because of the caregiver's negligence, that caregiver should not be allowed to own guns ever again. I think the same about people who injure or kill someone while driving drunk or high. If you cannot be responsible with dangerous objects, you should not have them.

I understand that this is not primarily an American board, but I will say that those of you who want a gun ban in America have no idea what the repercussions would be. It would throw this country into a civil war and that will hugely impact the rest of the world's economy. Not to mention that you would see a death toll in the hundreds of thousands if not millions. A gun ban in America will increase the number of deaths, not reduce them.

I'm interested to know what form you think this civil war would take. Would certain states start ceding from the union? Would NRA members declare war on non-NRA members? Civil war doesn't just break out in intact democracies.

I'm also interested to know how police would go about enforcing laws such as those decreeing that loaded guns have to be locked away. Door-to-door checks? Or do you wait until people have been killed before enforcing the law?

It's not just about guns, although they could very well be the catalyst that starts things off. Americans are fed up with the state of the country. Congress and the two parties have never been more unpopular. Americans have never trusted the government less. Grass roots movements are everywhere. There is change coming to the US and I truly hope it's peaceful, but that's not a certainty.

I'm not sure what the point of your questions are as it comes across as mocking, but I would advise you to do some serious research before you decide that America could never again go to war with itself. Saying 'it could never happen' is choosing to ignore signs of trouble.

You enforce gun laws like you enforce all other laws. Do police check every driver's blood alcohol level before they drive? Or do they take reports of drunk drivers and lock them up before they hurt themselves or anyone else?

 

[Randianne]

@Piper84 Im interested in that point too I know that there are a lot of pro gun people in the US but I dont know if theyd really go to war more likely theyd just hide what weaponry they have away somewhere.

Those laws sound really awkward to enforce theyd probably rely on neighbours coming forward with information. Locking loaded guns away should be common sense though imo.

You're right. They wouldn't go to war over just guns. But gun laws are only one of America's many, many problems. Wars are never fought over one single issue, and gun bans could be a catalyst to war. If you don't think there is unrest in America then you haven't been paying attention.

I'm not saying that a gun ban would definitely start a war. I'm saying that when you bring extreme change to an already divided country you are asking for trouble. Nullifying an amendment would tear apart the foundation of our government. Then what do we do?

 

[SaraEmily]

Agree 100% with Randianne. This nation is more polarized than ever. And there's extreme uproar just from assault weapon bans, can you imagine a complete ban? I have no doubt in my mind that something horrible would happen in this country.

We need to focus on enforcing the gun laws we already have in place. And there's so many illegal guns already, I don't see how a gun ban could even be effective. It would only affect law abiding citizens. Not to mention, our cities with the strictest gun laws have the highest crime rates.

For good or bad, guns in America are here to stay..

 

[Piper84]

I'm not a gun ban advocate. I think the emphasis needs to be on gun education, responsibility, and actually enforcing our current gun laws. That said, if a child gets ahold of a gun because of the caregiver's negligence, that caregiver should not be allowed to own guns ever again. I think the same about people who injure or kill someone while driving drunk or high. If you cannot be responsible with dangerous objects, you should not have them.

I understand that this is not primarily an American board, but I will say that those of you who want a gun ban in America have no idea what the repercussions would be. It would throw this country into a civil war and that will hugely impact the rest of the world's economy. Not to mention that you would see a death toll in the hundreds of thousands if not millions. A gun ban in America will increase the number of deaths, not reduce them.

I'm interested to know what form you think this civil war would take. Would certain states start ceding from the union? Would NRA members declare war on non-NRA members? Civil war doesn't just break out in intact democracies.

I'm also interested to know how police would go about enforcing laws such as those decreeing that loaded guns have to be locked away. Door-to-door checks? Or do you wait until people have been killed before enforcing the law?

It's not just about guns, although they could very well be the catalyst that starts things off. Americans are fed up with the state of the country. Congress and the two parties have never been more unpopular. Americans have never trusted the government less. Grass roots movements are everywhere. There is change coming to the US and I truly hope it's peaceful, but that's not a certainty.

I'm not sure what the point of your questions are as it comes across as mocking, but I would advise you to do some serious research before you decide that America could never again go to war with itself. Saying 'it could never happen' is choosing to ignore signs of trouble.

You enforce gun laws like you enforce all other laws. Do police check every driver's blood alcohol level before they drive? Or do they take reports of drunk drivers and lock them up before they hurt themselves or anyone else?

If you feel mocked by my post then maybe you should read it again. My questions were for clarification, as you didn't go into much detail with your post.

The US is one of the most stable democracies in the world, but if you watch certain news channels over there, I imagine the polarity is pretty amplified, with journalists weeping on camera and placing crosshairs on maps of targeted constituencies.

That said, I didn't say civil war "could never happen" there, so I don't know where the quotation marks come from in your post.

I find your comparison of laws on irresponsibly placed and loaded weapons with drunk driving baffling. Drunk drivers are invariably caught while they're drunk driving, on public roads, and prosecuted. Are you supposed to catch children wielding their guns on private property, behind closed doors, just before they shoot dead their siblings? Sadly, it's not a law that can be enforced properly until after the tragedies have occurred.

 

[Tiff]

I find drunk driving to be the same as that though, in regards that it takes a tragedy for something to be done. I know far too many people who drive drunk all the time and they literally just don't care! They've never been stopped by police, even have made it through RIDE programs (how they get through is beyond me). I've now taken to calling the police when I know someone has had too much and are getting into their car.

Actually, I find the US to be the most unstable its ever been these last few years. Living in Canada, a lot of our economy depends on how well the US is doing... so I tend to try and follow things. There's been lots of advances in other things, I think 11 states now support gay marriage?

But even with stuff like that, people are going ballistic and saying that its the end of society as we know it. Personally, and if I'm off the mark feel free to correct me anyone who lives in the States, that they ARE trying to make changes... but it has to unfortunately be slow as to not cause an uproar.

It floors me how many people are angry about Gay Marriage. And that's not even something that can hurt/affect someone else! Imagine if they just decided to ban guns one day, maaaaan... that would not be pretty.

 

[Piper84]

I find drunk driving to be the same as that though, in regards that it takes a tragedy for something to be done. I know far too many people who drive drunk all the time and they literally just don't care! They've never been stopped by police, even have made it through RIDE programs (how they get through is beyond me). I've now taken to calling the police when I know someone has had too much and are getting into their car.

Actually, I find the US to be the most unstable its ever been these last few years. Living in Canada, a lot of our economy depends on how well the US is doing... so I tend to try and follow things. There's been lots of advances in other things, I think 11 states now support gay marriage?

But even with stuff like that, people are going ballistic and saying that its the end of society as we know it. Personally, and if I'm off the mark feel free to correct me anyone who lives in the States, that they ARE trying to make changes... but it has to unfortunately be slow as to not cause an uproar.

It floors me how many people are angry about Gay Marriage. And that's not even something that can hurt/affect someone else! Imagine if they just decided to ban guns one day, maaaaan... that would not be pretty.

If drunk driving is the same and happens all the time, as in your experience, then Randianne's suggestion for enforcing gun laws in the same way as drunk driving laws wouldn't be effective.

I didn't realise any legislators were talking about banning guns outright. At the moment the question is about assault weapons (I think it was defeated?).

 

[Tiff]

I could be wrong, but I think that was Randianne's point - how even if they restricted/took them away people would still find the loopholes.

Oh no, not banning guns outright, but in the general thought that guns aren't needed at all so do away with them. Sorry for the misconception!

As for assault weapon ban, yes it was defeated.

 

[Piper84]

I could be wrong, but I think that was Randianne's point - how even if they restricted/took them away people would still find the loopholes.

Oh no, not banning guns outright, but in the general thought that guns aren't needed at all so do away with them. Sorry for the misconception!

As for assault weapon ban, yes it was defeated.

I read her point to be that enforcing current gun laws properly (as diverse as they are) would help. My point is that you can't enforce laws like that effectively until the tragedies have already happened, so it doesn't help prevent needless death.

I think I said in another thread that, if I were in the US, I would definitely want a gun in my home to protect my family against intruders who are almost certainly armed. I don't think it's workable to ban all weapons in the US immediately either as change like that needs time. What may be a good thing to get rid of first, though, is assault weapons, at the same time as actually performing background and medical checks on prospective gun-owners.

 

[Tiff]

I agree

 

[Randianne]

My point was that most laws are unenforceable unless they are broken. There will also always be loopholes. Legislation alone will not solve the gun problem.

Sorry I misunderstood, Piper. I'm used to getting condescension on this topic and I read too much into it.

I disagree about the stability of the US. I pay attention to a good mix of mainstream news, grass roots news sources, and the words of the politicians themselves. I've also lived on the generally liberal Easy Coast as well as the generally conservative Midwest. While their reasons for it differ, almost everyone agrees that things are getting more unstable. People are angry with Republicans and Democrats and the corruption that seems to rule Congress. Personally, I refuse to identify with a political party because they are so busy pointing fingers and blaming each other that they aren't getting anything done.

Tiff, you're right about change being done slowly. The gay marriage ban makes me incredibly angry. It's so hypocritical to accuse them of the demise of families when the divorce rate among heterosexuals is 50%.

 

[jodiex]

Omg! !! Kids corner on a gun website? !?! Wtf.
The parents have had the ultimate punishment. Losing a child and no doubt the boys life is wrecked. So so sad.
And what the hell was the gun doing lying around for a kid to get hold of.?!

 

[SerenityNow]

It's not just about guns, although they could very well be the catalyst that starts things off. Americans are fed up with the state of the country. Congress and the two parties have never been more unpopular. Americans have never trusted the government less. Grass roots movements are everywhere. There is change coming to the US and I truly hope it's peaceful, but that's not a certainty.

Agree 100% with Randianne. This nation is more polarized than ever. And there's extreme uproar just from assault weapon bans, can you imagine a complete ban? I have no doubt in my mind that something horrible would happen in this country.

I'm going to guess that neither of you are old enough to remember much of the Clinton administration. These are not unprecedented levels of division or dissatisfaction. These are normal levels. People were saying the exact things then, grass roots movements, change is coming, the whole 9 yards. Plus a good hearty dose of millennialism!

Look at the levels of political unrest in the late 1960s and early 1970s. What we are experiencing today is nothing, NOTHING like that. Even compared to the 1880s and 1890s, this is barely more than vague ennui. People who think that we are "on the edge of something huge" right now in America simply lack perspective.

 

[Randianne]

I'm going to guess that neither of you are old enough to remember much of the Clinton administration. These are not unprecedented levels of division or dissatisfaction. These are normal levels. People were saying the exact things then, grass roots movements, change is coming, the whole 9 yards. Plus a good hearty dose of millennialism!

Look at the levels of political unrest in the late 1960s and early 1970s. What we are experiencing today is nothing, NOTHING like that. Even compared to the 1880s and 1890s, this is barely more than vague ennui. People who think that we are "on the edge of something huge" right now in America simply lack perspective.

I do remember the Clinton administration, not that it means anything. Yes, there has always been unrest. No one is saying there hasn't been. But it is the worst it has ever been.

Since you brought it up, let's look at American's attitudes in the Clinton administration. Here's a good summary:

https://www.gallup.com/poll/4144/Democrats-Hold-Edge-House-Vote.aspx

And let's look at where we are now:

https://www.gallup.com/poll/161210/congress-approval-stagnant-low-level.aspx

Here's an article from 2007. Our numbers have since dropped. I'm only posting it because it shows American's thinking in the Watergate and Vietnam era.

https://www.gallup.com/poll/27946/Americans-Confidence-Congress-AllTime-Low.aspx

From the Article:

"The current confidence rating for Congress -- 14% -- is the lowest in Gallup's history for that institution. Although ratings of Congress have never been high, they were at the 40% level at the time of Watergate in the 1970s, and again in 1986."

So, actually, civil unrest is significantly worse then it was in the 1960s and 1970s. I used Congress as one example, but if you research it every other category was higher then too.

I don't think I'm the one who lacks perspective.

 

[SerenityNow]

Congressional approval ratings are very low but re-election rates exceed 80%.

At any rate, I don't think you can honestly make the argument that civil unrest is worse now than it was in the 1960s and 1970s based on polling data. It was worse then based on the number of political leaders being assassinated, the number of race riots, the protest movements and the incidents if domestic terrorism. To me, that is what civil unrest looks like, not people grousing to each other and then continuing to elect the same people year after year.