AAaaaaargh! Is it immoral to eat meat and fish and do we care?

I don't think it is a tiny thing though, not when you consider how much rainforest is destroyed for rearing meat etc etc. Yes we are chunking out too much carbon but we are also chopping down too much of the world's capacity to absorb it. It's a double-edged sword.

The world has many problems, some are bigger some are smaller. But if we ignore any of them we ignore part of the bigger picture, and how can we sort anything like that?

All the components add together to make the whole, and improvement to any of those parts is an improvement.

:flower:
 
I eat meat, I enjoy eating meat but not every meal I have has to have meat on the plate. I do love meat and I agree that a plate is better (for me) with meat on it.

Chloe and Jaycee rarely have meat at home, just because they dont really like it. They chew it up and then spit it out so they tend to get more potatoes and veg when having a roast or mash and veg. I dont mind.

I like a balance, I'd be sick to death if I had it all the time..

But...... No I dont care about the impact its having and whether we are going to run out because I just dont think thats an issue right now. They will always find a way to produce meat whether it be cloning or some other messed up way and whether people like it or not if you LOVE your meat you will eat it regardless. This planet has bigger things to worry about than just this like how many cars drive on it everyday, thats the killer here.

I also think that the planet is going downhill because of other things not just this. This is a tiny little mini problem compared to all the others!

Its not tiny really. Its taking over the world. Have you seen the info I wrote on the first page? Its definately, not tiny :flower:
 
It's not a tiny problem...yes there are bigger ones..atm especially, BUT it's still a huge problem and actually the meat industry is one of the main contributers to pollution.
 
Livestock apparently cause more of a threat to the environment than cars.

That's surely a consideration as there wouldn't be so much livestock if we weren't consuming it at such unnatural rates.
 
I've been thinking alot about this recently as We eat alot of meat and most of it is garbage, the amount of mc donalds and kebab shop takeaways I have eaten in the past 3 months makes me feel sick. I've mentioned to my OH a few times about becoming a vegitarion (excuse spelling lol) as I don't even know if I like meat that much?! I do quite like chicken and eat alot of that but I don't suppose im really that fussed about red meat, although I do like pork also...

This has given me alot to think about!

Also agree with the previous poster who said meat isnt the same anymore.
 
I eat meat, I enjoy eating meat but not every meal I have has to have meat on the plate. I do love meat and I agree that a plate is better (for me) with meat on it.

Chloe and Jaycee rarely have meat at home, just because they dont really like it. They chew it up and then spit it out so they tend to get more potatoes and veg when having a roast or mash and veg. I dont mind.

I like a balance, I'd be sick to death if I had it all the time..

But...... No I dont care about the impact its having and whether we are going to run out because I just dont think thats an issue right now. They will always find a way to produce meat whether it be cloning or some other messed up way and whether people like it or not if you LOVE your meat you will eat it regardless. This planet has bigger things to worry about than just this like how many cars drive on it everyday, thats the killer here.

I also think that the planet is going downhill because of other things not just this. This is a tiny little mini problem compared to all the others!

Well the way we treat the planet is immoral, and yes this is a huge problem, just like over population. It's disgusting that people have this attitude that it will somehow be solved. NO! We have to solve it. We need to each take responsibility and not just expect other people to do it.
 
I eat meat, I enjoy eating meat but not every meal I have has to have meat on the plate. I do love meat and I agree that a plate is better (for me) with meat on it.

Chloe and Jaycee rarely have meat at home, just because they dont really like it. They chew it up and then spit it out so they tend to get more potatoes and veg when having a roast or mash and veg. I dont mind.

I like a balance, I'd be sick to death if I had it all the time..

But...... No I dont care about the impact its having and whether we are going to run out because I just dont think thats an issue right now. They will always find a way to produce meat whether it be cloning or some other messed up way and whether people like it or not if you LOVE your meat you will eat it regardless. This planet has bigger things to worry about than just this like how many cars drive on it everyday, thats the killer here.

I also think that the planet is going downhill because of other things not just this. This is a tiny little mini problem compared to all the others!

Well the way we treat the planet is immoral, and yes this is a huge problem, just like over population. It's disgusting that people have this attitude that it will somehow be solved. NO! We have to solve it. We need to each take responsibility and not just expect other people to do it.

Who are you to say its a disgusting????? Do you even know what I do? I do my best for the environment, I drive as little as I can, I recycle, I recycle my OLD FOOD WASTE! So before you get up on your high horse think about all the other things. I said this doesnt bother me because in MY opinion its small in comparison to some of the other effects on the environment... I never ever said it would be resolved but there are ways round it.. There are millions and millions of cars driving around and plenty laws and regulations could be brought in to change that. There are things that need to be done before they start tackling peoples food...

You have your opinion and I have mine.. Over where I am we all recycle all of our food cartons and anything that can be recycled so maybe before you start chucking the word disgusting around you wanna think about that :thumbup:

Oh and I also said I dont eat meat everyday. I prefer to not have it with every meal. Maybe to save waste they should make some smaller packaging for smaller families. I buy a whole pack of chicken breasts and have to split the pack as we dont eat them all.
 
A few people thinking change is needed - won't go anywhere...
I'm a vegetarian myself but know few other people who also are!
The harsh reality is that no body cares about the world anymore or what we are all doing to it.
Obviously everyone who eats meat etc is going to go shopping and pick it up off the shelf cause its there. There is still lots of wasted fresh food each day from supermarkets but still the same amount of products bought in and 'needed'
Meat will never stop being largely produced as it holds a lot of money in it - thats all it comes down too.
If each town had a few butcher shops in it and that was the only place to buy meat then the amount needed to be produced would be so much less and it is 'proper' meat we are getting sold. I know where I stay there is 4 butchers, 6 supermarkets, and about 15 convinces stores - all of with stock meat produce - which isn't needed at all - there is no way that all get used, so most of it is wasted!!!
I don't think there is anything wrong with eating meat but there is something drastically wrong with the way and amount it is produced.
But there will always be a high demand for meat...
 
I have also been thinking about this a lot recently. I was raised veggie and have been veggie for extended periods in the past. I do eat meat and fish but not with every meal- as I actually prefer beans, soya, quorn etc... and have been considering going veggie again for exactly this reasoning.

Humans need a varied diet in order to be healthy and I think most of us eat faaar too much meat, and not enough beans and pulses etc... Myself included some of the time.

Honestly, I'm disgusted by the thought that there are people out there that stuff themselves with meat every day without a thought to the burden they place on the planet and the ethics of eating animals. So, thanks for this thread redpoppy - it's made me even more aware of the issue and I am going to consciously eat less meat going forward and give more thought to its origins.
 
A few people thinking change is needed - won't go anywhere...

But without a few people thinking change is needed there will be nobody thinking change is needed. If everyone just says that their efforts are too tiny compared to the scale of the problem, nothing ever happens. A few people making changes is an example to others. I think this is the issue - nobody seems to think they should care because other people don't care. Catch-22.
 
A few people thinking change is needed - won't go anywhere...

But without a few people thinking change is needed there will be nobody thinking change is needed. If everyone just says that their efforts are too tiny compared to the scale of the problem, nothing ever happens. A few people making changes is an example to others. I think this is the issue - nobody seems to think they should care because other people don't care. Catch-22.

Yeeeah and I totally agree - but some people really don't care, and these are the vast majority. As yous have already discussed - most people find meat 'makes a meal' and wouldn't give it up...
Some people have the view that - 'if it's already killed for someone to eat, then how is wrong for me to eat it' it's not - its the way they are produced and the quantity...
 
are people actually trying to compare a lion eating a zebra ? to meat farming ? lmao.. its hardly the circle of life is it.. or natural.

i can honestly say i have NEVER in my entire life put a piece of meat past my lips... and yet here i am. Must be a miracle:dohh:

if you check you're science you will learn that humans were never intended to eat meat we have all the features of a herbivore.
we haven't even got the saliva for it?! lol x
 
are people actually trying to compare a lion eating a zebra ? to meat farming ? lmao.. its hardly the circle of life is it.. or natural.

i can honestly say i have NEVER in my entire life put a piece of meat past my lips... and yet here i am. Must be a miracle:dohh:

if you check you're science you will learn that humans were never intended to eat meat we have all the features of a herbivore.
we haven't even got the saliva for it?! lol x

Thankyouuuuu!!
And NEVER eaten meat? I stopped age 9, but 'never' is impressive!
No, we are not designed to eat meat.

Meat-eaters: have claws
Herbivores: no claws
Humans: no claws

Meat-eaters: have sharp front teeth for tearing, with no flat molar teeth for grinding
Herbivores: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding
Humans: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding


Meat-eaters: have intestinal tract that is only 3 times their body length so that rapidly decaying meat can pass through quickly
Herbivores: have intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length.
Humans: have intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length.


Meat-eaters: have strong hydrochloric acid in stomach to digest meat
Herbivores: have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat-eater
Humans: have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat-eater


Meat-eaters: salivary glands in mouth not needed to pre-digest grains and fruits.
Herbivores: well-developed salivary glands which are necessary to pre-digest grains and fruits
Humans: well-developed salivary glands, which are necessary to pre-digest, grains and fruits


Meat-eaters: have acid saliva with no enzyme ptyalin to pre-digest grains
Herbivores: have alkaline saliva with ptyalin to pre-digest grains
Humans: have alkaline saliva with ptyalin to pre-digest grains
 
yeah really never lol, my mum is a strict vegan, so since i was born i just never ate meat not even gummy bears lol ;) or jelly .. and for some STUPID reason i have had to spend most of my life defending this to people .. when really it should be the other way around if you ask me.. not only are we not suppose to eat meat, but everytime you turn around there is a new horrendous act of animal cruelty taking place in the meat industry i know that isn't that debate but its just another brilliant reason for people to dump it to be honest ... x
 
yeah really never lol, my mum is a strict vegan, so since i was born i just never ate meat not even gummy bears lol ;) or jelly .. and for some STUPID reason i have had to spend most of my life defending this to people .. when really it should be the other way around if you ask me.. not only are we not suppose to eat meat, but everytime you turn around there is a new horrendous act of animal cruelty taking place in the meat industry i know that isn't that debate but its just another brilliant reason for people to dump it to be honest ... x

:thumbup:
So true. Its very sad.
 
Sorry but the "humans are herbivores" argument is a complete myth, albeit a very popular one amongst vegetarian/vegan circles. Whilst those comparisons may look very convincing to someone without a scientific background, they have absolutely no ground in ecology or physiology.

Intestinal length is not an accurate way to determine dietary characteristics, although our intestine is actually mid-way between most herbivores and most carnivores. Surface area, cell type and structural specialisations give a far more accurate view. Humans completely lack the fermenting vats that almost all herbivores have. Our stomach produces hydrochloric acid, whilst herbivores do not. The human pancreas produces a full range of digestive enzymes for both animal and plant foods.

Human teeth are most similar to omnivores and human molars and premolars are often confused with various classic omnivores when found in archaeological dig sites. Saliva and urine data vary depending on diet rather than taxonomic group.

Basically the list of comparisons posted above simply proves that we are not carnivores, which is true. However it fails to mention all the other evidence that shows we are not herbivores either. Biologically, humans are true omnivores and there is no basis in anatomy or physiology for the assumption that humans are herbivores. Of course, there are still plenty of good arguments for a vegetarian/vegan diet in terms of ecological, ethical and health reasons.

Personally, I enjoy eating meat but I try to reduce the amount our family eats and buy only organic/free-range meat that has been farmed in an ethical manner, preferably using traditional methods. I think the supermarkets are to blame for a lot of the issues in meat farming, for example buying intensively-reared chickens for 10p and selling them at a ridiculous profit, making sustainably farmed meat even more expensive by comparison.
 
i want to know what people seem to think is in their meat that they "need to survive" ? the vitamin sups that vegetarians sometimes take are to replace B12 .. right? and meat eaters usually get all high and mighty over this lol.. but its not because you NEED to eat meat, its because you need to eat dirt(well bacteria) found in intestines and in raw plants.... if i was to pull my veg out the ground and eat it i would be fine.. the reason meat eaters think they are getting this is because simply their food is dirty ;) in a sense lol ... and we clean everything else so much we destroy it.. still tho shockingly statistics show that meat eaters are STILL more likely to have this vitamin deficiency,

i think it says alot really that vegetarians have on average a longer life span and a better health history they have found that vegetarians are less likely to suffer from (by 40%) diabetes, heart disease,obesity,kidney failure, and cancer, also 15-20% more likely to live longer..

fact of the matter is .. meat is killing us and our planet, people really just don't want to accept it, one day in the future i think our GREAT GREAT GREAT grandkids will be sitting in a school somewhere giggling at how silly we all were ?

i mean didn't we used to think smoking was okay? eating meat is outdated as far as i'm concerned just because we have been doing it for a while doesn't make it okay or "natural" .. as we have learnt time and time again x
 
I've read a few articles that suggest cooking and eating a vegetarian meal once or twice a week is a good way to mentain a healthy diet and a healty food budget.

Plus, if you have a go at growing your own veggies, even if it's just a few salad leaves, you are saving money and helping a little bit with the carbon footprint of your food.

It could be a load of tosh designed to sell magazines but it makes sense to me. I love vegetarian options when we go out to eat and often choose them and I'm very proud of my homegrown bits and bobs.

And the salad leaves are easy to grow. Every week just sow some seeds in a pot and water them. You get a continuous supply of fresh leaves throughout the summer and they taste better than the packaged up supermarket ones.

Homegrown strawberries are really easy and delicious too.
 
i want to know what people seem to think is in their meat that they "need to survive" ? the vitamin sups that vegetarians sometimes take are to replace B12 .. right? and meat eaters usually get all high and mighty over this lol.. but its not because you NEED to eat meat, its because you need to eat dirt(well bacteria) found in intestines and in raw plants.... if i was to pull my veg out the ground and eat it i would be fine.. the reason meat eaters think they are getting this is because simply their food is dirty ;) in a sense lol ... and we clean everything else so much we destroy it.. still tho shockingly statistics show that meat eaters are STILL more likely to have this vitamin deficiency,

i think it says alot really that vegetarians have on average a longer life span and a better health history they have found that vegetarians are less likely to suffer from (by 40%) diabetes, heart disease,obesity,kidney failure, and cancer, also 15-20% more likely to live longer..

fact of the matter is .. meat is killing us and our planet, people really just don't want to accept it, one day in the future i think our GREAT GREAT GREAT grandkids will be sitting in a school somewhere giggling at how silly we all were ?

i mean didn't we used to think smoking was okay? eating meat is outdated as far as i'm concerned just because we have been doing it for a while doesn't make it okay or "natural" .. as we have learnt time and time again x

I really, REALLY hope so.
 
Sorry but the "humans are herbivores" argument is a complete myth, albeit a very popular one amongst vegetarian/vegan circles. Whilst those comparisons may look very convincing to someone without a scientific background, they have absolutely no ground in ecology or physiology.

Intestinal length is not an accurate way to determine dietary characteristics, although our intestine is actually mid-way between most herbivores and most carnivores. Surface area, cell type and structural specialisations give a far more accurate view. Humans completely lack the fermenting vats that almost all herbivores have. Our stomach produces hydrochloric acid, whilst herbivores do not. The human pancreas produces a full range of digestive enzymes for both animal and plant foods.

Human teeth are most similar to omnivores and human molars and premolars are often confused with various classic omnivores when found in archaeological dig sites. Saliva and urine data vary depending on diet rather than taxonomic group.

Basically the list of comparisons posted above simply proves that we are not carnivores, which is true. However it fails to mention all the other evidence that shows we are not herbivores either. Biologically, humans are true omnivores and there is no basis in anatomy or physiology for the assumption that humans are herbivores. Of course, there are still plenty of good arguments for a vegetarian/vegan diet in terms of ecological, ethical and health reasons.

Personally, I enjoy eating meat but I try to reduce the amount our family eats and buy only organic/free-range meat that has been farmed in an ethical manner, preferably using traditional methods. I think the supermarkets are to blame for a lot of the issues in meat farming, for example buying intensively-reared chickens for 10p and selling them at a ridiculous profit, making sustainably farmed meat even more expensive by comparison.

Well said!
Thank you!
I have no problem with anyone choosing to be a vegetarian or a vegan ( I was a vegetarian for 6 years myself), but when people start bringing really bad science into the argument, it makes my omnivorous teeth set on edge. :)

As for the OP, I do think the question of ALL our food, hell, all our consumption is a huge moral question. Tracking the ecological footprint of just about every aspect of our lives in exhausting, but it has to be done. There's no other way to educate yourself and minimize your impact on the planet.
For me, that means something like the "Hundred Mile Diet" is far more beneficial to the planet than adopting vegetarianism. Basically, this means that I strive for my food to be ethically and locally raised. In my case, I live on the North American prairies. This is literally the land "where the buffalo roam", (well, where they used to roam before we drove them to extinction in the wild). This grassland is far better designed to support large herds of hoofstock than a soybean crop. In fact, there is a lot of ecological damage done by crops, so choosing vegetarianism does not necessarily lower your impact as much as you might think.
But here's where things get really screwy. We produce a lot of grass-fed beef in Alberta (ie. the cattle are free-ranging and eating graze, rather than spending their entire lives in a feedlot). Ideally, that should be a very logical food for us Albertans to consume. However, we export most of it to the States, and import something like 50% of our beef from New Zealand (???!!). Talk about heavy ecological foot print! How on earth did our global markets get so screwed up?
So, I guess the moral of the story is to do your homework. Every time you buy something, source it. At least that lets you vote with your dollar. And let the grocers know why you are choosing to buy one item over the other. Take the time to send them a note, etc. It's a slow process, but it does have effects. There have been lots of good news stories on our planet, as well as the bad news. We have to keep reminding ourselves of that and creating the world we want to live in, one grocery shop at a time. :flower:
 

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