Breast feeding issues with 5day old baby (posting on behalf of OH)**Update at 19days*

[Celesse]

Hey,

Celesse asked me to post this as shes currently stuck back in hospital.

As you may or may not know. Cel was a planned homebirth but things went awry and she ended up being a CS and was born on the 11th at 00:45.

They were allowed home on Mother's Day (March 14th) as baby was (seemingly) breasfeeding well. Two days later our community midwife weighed her as she had lost 18% of her birth weight (8lbs 1 to 6lbs 14).
That being discovered, they were both sent back to the maternity unit as inpatients.

Now, heres the tricky bit!

Baby was encouraged to breast feed on arrival (and did for 30mins) and then topped up with formula. Since then shes pretty much slept none stop and now will not latch onto the nipple. Shes difficult to wake up to feed (however if you stick a bottle in her mouth she will feed).

She called me a few minutes ago to tell me to post this and said that shes now awake and alert and has no interest at all at trying to latch on. But she will happily drink expressed milk from a bottle.

Cel is getting somewhat distressed as she wants to breastfeed but it seems baby has other ideas.

Any ideas or help for her?

Cheers

Cel's OH

 

[loopy_lou]

Hi

Gosh please send her a hug from me...

Has the baby had a good poo? I am no expert and have had lots of good advice from the ladies on here so i am sure someone might have more for you than a hug

loopy

 

[anothersquish]

Firstly give her our best wishes bless her!
There can be several issues here, baby is sleepy as many newborns are and learning to BF is a job for some babies and basically bottles are easier for baby to get the milk so some babies will go off latching in favour of the faster flow from the bottle. My first recommendation would be to get some Breastflow bottles ASAP and use those to feed baby. They encourage a proper BF latch and take baby MUCH longer to drink (we have these bottles for a baby who is bottle fed EBM as his mother cant currently BF) so there will be less of a difference between breast and bottle for baby. My next recommendation would be for her to keep trying the latch, use breast shields if nessacary to give baby a similar feel to the bottle. I would probably advise to try latching before a bottle feed as long as baby isnt screaming hungry (ie offer baby before baby demands), try latching again midfeed where possible and again afterwards if baby is still looking for more food. This is potentially time consuming but she seems like a determined woman! Latching should be attempted when both mum and baby are calm, if baby or mum is upset/tense then it probably isnt the time to try latching, latching needs to have positive associations for both so if baby is hungry/crying/fussing just go with the bottle and think about latch next feed.

There are also practises to help wake baby enough to feed, has she been shown any by midwifes?l

 

[Lu28]

Firstly, congrats on your LO!

Does Celesse have access to a decent midwife or breastfeeding consultant at the hospital? They could be pretty helpful, especially where LO is awake now but not latching. It may be that LO has figured out that the bottle requires less work on her part so it might be worthwhile trying syringe feeding or cup feeding to get her away from the bottle. She might also be used to the feel of latex in her mouth and might be put off by bare boob so nipple shields might encourage her.

If you're going to continue with bottles I'd suggest getting some Breastflow ones by First Days, they make LO work harder for milk as they would have to when bfing. Which bottles are you using?

I'm sure Celesse is already doing this but if she wants to go back to direct bfing, it's very important that she pumps every time LO feeds so her boobs get the signals to produce enough milk.

Sorry it's all a bit jumbled, falling asleep here! Hope they're both out of hospital soon xxx

 

[Celesse]

Update.

Celesse feels that its the bottles that are causing her to not want to BF. And the midwives dont want to listen and the only other option is using a feeding tube (as they dont let you cup feed as its a risk etc).

We had a midwife try to help earlier but she just wasnt interested. We are both intelligent people so if intelligence is inherited shes probaly figured the bottle is an easier ride. :/

 

[anothersquish]

Can she get some breastflow bottles to use in the hospital? Will they allow that? I cant understand why she wouldnt be allowed to cup or syringe feed (which bloody hospital is it so I can come beat some sense into them...)

Tell her not to give up hope even if she doesnt latch at all in the next few days. If she keeps expressing milk and feeds EBM/formula til babys weight is up and she can come home she can restart in comfort at home with a lactation specialist, the right bottles etc.

 

[Lu28]

I can't understand why they won't allow cup feeding seeing as she's at the hospital and could be 'supervised' if they deem it appropriate - probably too much like hard work for them

Agree with Squish, please don't lose hope that she'll go back on the boob. My LO latched on day one but didnt' again until she was 2.5 weeks old. I tried at every feed, did plenty of skin to skin contact etc and she eventually just got it. I'd also recommend taking a bath together and letting LO find the nipple on her own.

Smuggle the breastflow bottles in if need be!

 

[FemmeEnceinte]

Try the feeding tube,while baby latches on so they associate the full feeling with being at the breast and this should encourage more interest in latching. Lots of skin to skin also! x

 

[marley2580]

Tell her to dig her heels in. She can insist on using breastflow bottles if that's what she wants, she can also insist on cup feeding. I know how hard it is, Kaya had to be cup fed for a day and a half due to jaundice, but the MWs came in and did it every 3 hours and I BF in between. She should also try and get as much skin to skin as possible (not easy I know in there), lie down with LO next to her and let baby latch on as often as they want, only really stopping for toilet breaks, pumping and feeding ebm. Which hospital is is? They should all have BF experts or peer supporters, if not it would probably be worth seeing if there's any nearby community BF support (BF cafes etc) that maybe someone could come in and give some help.

 

[Punky79]

It sounds like the hospital are being VERY unhelpful!!

I second (third, fourth!) the Breastflow bottles.

Also keep at it with trying the latch but make it a nice calm experience for baby. One thing which really really helped me with latching was to make my boob into a sandwich shape (thumb on the inside of breast, other fingers on the outside and squeeze) and keep saying to baby 'big mouth' so they open wide and aim the nipple towards baby's palette - this might help.

I would also ring NCT and La Leche and see if you can get a breastfeeding counceller to come into the hospital. Which area are you in and someone might be able to recommend someone?

 

[MandaAnda]

I posted something about feeding in the home birth group section after Celesse had posted saying they were being readmitted, but I don't know if she saw it. She should be able to use the bottles she wants. It's stupid (on the midwives' part) to use hospital bottles and then (potentially) go home and use different ones - what a way to confuse a baby more! You should be "allowed" to bring in your own bottles (I actively encourage it on the NICU...grrr postnatal!!!).

I think LO will start waking better, and therefore going onto the breast better, once she's started putting on weight and has started efficiently clearing the bilirubin (the jaundice-causing, and therefore sleepy-making, stuff). I personally don't believe in nipple confusion (it is a theory, after all). LO is just finding the bottle much easier right now with being so sleepy. I also second the recommendation of giving nipple shields a go. As she gets bigger and more established on the breast, these can be eased away. And I hope the midwives are making sure Celesse expresses regularly as well to maintain/establish her supply, as even if LO is having EBM and/or formula, Celesse needs to be demanding milk from her body the way LO would be if at home and well (3-4 hourly, even overnight [sorry, but I've had mums tell me that the midwives told them to "just get some rest" and not worry about expressing overnight when that is so detrimental to establishing/maintaining a supply]).

Edit: Another thing. LO won't be able to latch on well if Celesse's boobs are incredibly full. If this is the case, she can try hand expressing before attempting a BF or even going on the pump for a few minutes to soften the breast just a little so that LO can get a better latch. The "sandwich" hold, mentioned in the previous post, can be helpful in this situation as well (also if you have big boobs, like me).

All the best to them both.

 

[Mrs Muffin]

My LO lost 15% of weight so I know how you feel. He had jaundice first time he was admitted and second time just wasn't feeding well. With the hospitals help I had to stick to a routine of skin to skin, try feeding him then topping up with EBM or donor breast milk (I wasn't producing the 70ml they wanted me too). I was given a breast pump to borrow and took donor milk home with me. I carried on this routine at home and eventually switched over to demand feeding with no top ups. I also used nipple shields to help him get latched on then weaned him off those.

It's hard work but I just wanted to offer hope to you and Celesse and to know that you CAN acheive your goal.

Good luck and well done for being so supportive xx

 

[Seraphim]

Just wanted to say well done daddy for helping find solutions - not everyone would handle this so well given the distress

You've been given wonderful advice already (Definitely the Breastflow bottles.)

All thinking of you x

 

[Sunflowers]

Definitely another vote for breastflow bottles.

Ask the hospital to produce evidence based guidelines on why they won't let you cupfeed. It's recommended for bf babies ffs - if they can show you the evidence why it's a risk then I'll show it to the neonatologists at work, we use it all the time for goodness sake.

Sounds like it's more the fact it takes longer and can be messy and they just don't want to be bothered by it.

 

[Celesse]

Celesse back home but posting this in her favour right.

We looked for breastflow bottles. The site states they are sold in John Lewis, Argos and Boots. We checked stores of all 3 and they have never heard of them.

Is the only place to buy them online? Or do mothercare sell them? (I'll have to go get em as cel is in no fit state to travel that far)

 

[kaygeebee]

I believe mothercare sell them. (they certainly used to - perhaps check online or / and call the store before you travel.)

Please don't give up hope. My LO was fed expressed milk at every feed (from a normal cheap tesco standard bottle) until he was 3 weeks old. He is still being breastfed at 6.5 months and we are not stopping yet.

It was incredibly difficult in those early days, but once LO started to settle a bit better and we were more relaxed at home, he started to 'get' it. Keep persevering, and try baby on the boob as often as possible. Don't stress if it doesn't happen, just keep topping up with expressed milk and keep expressing to keep that supply up. One day, it will just click. - and I remember being told that myself, and thinking people were lying, didn't know what I was going through and it would never happen.

Big hugs. xxxxxxxxx

 

[anothersquish]

Mothercare have them in.
Glad to hear shes home again, should make things less complicated for you both.

 

[Seraphim]

I bought ours on ebay x

 

[Shiv]

My best friend has just been through this exact same thing.

She started using nipple shields when her baby was a week old having cup fed prior to that because he woudln't latch. She used teh nipple shields with great success for 4 weeks and now her baby is a bit bigger her latches straight on to the boob.

As baby gets bigger as long as they are given plenty of opportunity to try to latch they will "get it" in the end. I know it can be very distressing and hard work so big hugs to you all

 

[Celesse]

As my OH has said we are back home now. It was almost a self discharge cos of the attitude of some midwives and the fact they all wanted me to do things slightly differently. Some didn't even believe she had been latching on at home.

We are now on a pretty strict 4 hourly regime. We start with gentle skin to skin time and allow baby to wake up slowly then encourage her to take to the breast. She is currently interested in licking and sucking the end of the nipple, but rarely latches on correctly, however she is latching sometimes.
Once she has had enough, by either falling asleep and loosing interest or starting to get frustrated and scream we move on to giving her EBM and then formula top up.
I then expressing using the Medela Swing breast pump https://www.medelasuction.com/UK/breastfeeding/products/swing.php

I currently express 5 mins each side, twice. I've gone up from 20mls a time, to 38mls last expression. I have also been put on domperidone to increase my milk supply.

Current bottles we got so we could manage at home are the Tommy Tippee closer to nature ones. They are making LO work harder than the hospital ones and we intend to get Breastflow ones.

My current plan is to continue with the 4 hourly plan over the weekend, allow my milk to increase and look for a pattern with the baby that will allow us to encourage her to be more interested in the boob.