burning of the Koran

[ShanandBoc]

Sadly though many people act completely out of their own desires and try to somehow make out it is something sanctioned by their religion.

You see this with religion in general dont you, and then people turn around and say religion is evil and then this turns people away from God.

Their actions are from the devil, not God

 

[Lightworker]

Summerrain thanks for your posts - I truly have learned something new, especially just how much the average person's opinions are at the mercy of the media. I pride myself for being objective but its hard to be so given that my naivete with regard to the media is so great - and this applies to loads of people as well. Although I have read about alot of oppresive regime in middle east and sudan etc and Islam seemed to play a role so its hard to know what to believe ya know.

 

[summer rain]

Shana thats true 100%

 

[summer rain]

Thanks hun. Incidentally I've been to Sudan hun and I really had my eyes opened, there is a lot of inter-ethnic strife but its not purely along religious lines as the media in the west portrays it to be, religion is only a small part of it. In Khartoum many of the wealthiest and most influential people are Arab Christians (mainly copts but there are other groups such as Anglicans) and they have absolute freedom of religion, there is a church on virtually every street in many areas; many that are absolutely huge and ornate and there are quite a lot of monasteries and Christian missions as well. In the south of Sudan some areas are mainly Christian but those areas have large Muslim minorities and there are some Muslim majority areas in the South as well. In general all Sudanese Muslims consider themselves as Africans 100% and the vast majority are of mixed origin and proud of this. Also Darfur is mainly Muslim yet there have been atrocities there on both sides, its terrible. There is also inter-tribal warfare between rival Christian tribal groups in the South and this has actually got worse since the devolution and now the referendum and agreement to become two seperate nations. I also believe reports about ladies wearing trousers being arrested are not true; most Sudanese ladies wear trousers from time to time and contrary to as what is widely reported in some of the media; there is no specific law in Sudan saying you have to cover up in a certain way. You may be told off for wearing a micro mini-skirt perhaps but I saw many ladies there wearing knee length skirts with vest tops and they are Muslims, no-one gave two hoots and that included the police. This was 10 years ago and the country has become even more relaxed now. The laws on dress etc don't apply to Christians there but most Christians in Sudan choose to cover their heads (either with a scarf or headwrap) and wear very covering clothing anyway, such as the tobe (sari like garment) as it is in their culture as well and you get purely Christian areas of the South where most women dress this way also.

Most middle eastern countries have secular dictators in place, and many practicing Muslims have been tortured and gone missing in these countries as they are seen as a threat, for reasons as flimsy as having a beard. Still sometimes standing up against the rulers in the way of violent protests etc can make matters considerably worse and because of this Muslims are obligated to obey the rule of law even if it is oppressive.

The Prophet Muhammed PBUH said 'Whosoever obeys the ruler has obeyed me and whoever obeys me had obeyed Allaah; and he who disobeys the ruler has disobeyed me and whoever disobeys me has disobeyed Allaah. (Al-Bukhaaree and Muslim [the two most sound books of hadith for Muslims])

 

[Lightworker]

I was reading Genocide in Darfur and I thought it was mainly the Arab Muslims doing the killing. Even with books you can never be sure if there is a bias but this was an Atrocities Documentation Project so I thought everything was factual in preperation for a legitimate tribunal. That said I do acknowledge how Muslims have been targeted and the world has conveniently forgotten eg in the former Yugoslavia and the Serbians genocidal massacres of the Muslims.

 

[summer rain]

At first that was the situation but those in Darfur are also Muslims and the 'Arab' Muslims in the region are also of mixed Arab and African origin, so its not a situation of 'light skinned Arab Muslims' vs 'Black non-Muslims' at all. Even from the start it was a tribal or ethnic; not a religious conflict and nothing to do with Islam anyway. In Islam even in extreme circumstances fighting other Muslims is forbidden. The government in Sudan despite claiming to follow Islamic law; is broadly secular in how it is run and many Muslims have been jailed there for believing in the 'wrong' type of Islam or political ideas. I wouldn't take any of the governments as examples of 'Islam' in the same sense that you would not judge the actions of the British government as being 'Christian'.

Its a similar situation as in Rwanda you got hutus and tutsis killing each other; the vast majority of both tribes were Christian and the Hutus involved in the killing were often Catholic with many Catholic clergy, and nuns heavily involved. Apparently the number of Muslims in Rwanda doubled after the genocide because Rwandan Muslims were the only ones not involved in the massacres and took a large role in sheltering people from harm.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A53018-2002Sep22.html

 

[Lightworker]

Thats a very interesting perspective on Rwanda. I am very passionate about Rwanda and did an internship at the UN Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda and have read so many accounts of both killers and survivors and nowhere was the genocide linked to religion. The only time it was mentioned was that clergy sometimes delivered masses of Tutsis to their deaths under false pretences but this was not attributed to religion, just the pure fact that they were Hutu and had been indoctrinated into hating Tutsis for ages.

 

[Lightworker]

You also say "killing each other" within the time frame of the 1994 genocide in Rwanda the Tutsis were not killing, they were either running or dying. I know the some extreme RPF did commit some summary executions but were not killing as in genocide-type killing. I picked on that phrase cuz the US, as an independent state and as a permanent member of the UNSC seem to use it alot to avoid intervening to save lives ie if people are killing each other, its not genocide so no obligation to act.

 

[summer rain]

Yes the majority of atrocities were by Hutus you're correct, although the Catholic church have distanced themselves from the actions of the Hutus; their reputation in Rwanda has been damaged as many people there did see it as religious leaders taking part in the genocide and actively stirring things up. There were also cases where people sought refuge in churches or monasteries/nunneries only to end up being slaughtered, the only place to be safe was the Muslim neighbourhoods or homes in many cases.

https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3561365.stm

It is the case though in most conflicts that religion isn't seen to be a cause or factor in the conflict; unless it involves Muslims, then a religious cause will be cooked up for it and Islam itself will be blamed for the violence even if the other side in the conflict are also Muslims, and even if those in question are completely irreligious and only deemed as Muslim due to their names or ethnic backgrounds. I'm actually surprised they haven't tried to blame Islam for what is going on in the Ivory Coast yet, considering the country has a high percentage of Muslims.

 

[Lightworker]

Summer - im loving this thread you sound very knowledgable. I hope I can be frank with you without offending you because I rarely get to talk bout this topic without worrying bout feelings etc. What do you make of those former-Muslims who abandon the religion for what they deem as its inequitable and harsh stances? An example is Ayaan Hirsi-Ali? Do you feel their claims are legit?

 

[summer rain]

When it comes to certain public figures no I don't feel their claims are legit, and many of them have been exposed as liars and frauds in other aspects of their life such as Ayaan Hirsi Ali, after all she did have to leave Holland after being exposed as a fraudulent asylum seeker, it also came to light she was happily married before, hardly the forced marriage she claimed to have been subjected to; some of her other claims regarding her having undergone FGM etc may well be true but these are cultural things and not from Islam, she does seem to be deeply ignorant of what is culture and what is from the Islamic faith considering she claims to have attended Islamic schools etc. I have also seen some testimonies (videos and written) of others who claim to have been devout Muslims and found Christianity; and while some may be genuine; others do not even know the first chapter of the Qur'an, or the pillars of Islam, very odd considering these are essentials of the religion. Some of them have been looked into by the universities and other institutions that employ them and found to not be telling the truth. I'm not saying that all of these individuals are complete liars; though most are misguided as to the actual teachings of Islam and there seems to be an industry particularly in the US of ex Muslims seeking political asylum and in some cases fame and monetary gain and this is really lapped up by neo-cons. Of course people have their own free will and a genuine convert to any faith would not behave in this way.

 

[summer rain]

Of course there are aspects of the Qur'an that some may consider harsh; but there are similar passages in other holy books and they need to be taken in a particular context, the Qur'an is a historical narrative (like the bible) as well as guidance on how to live your life right now so many verses are talking about a moment in the past and not saying you should do such and such now.

 

[Lightworker]

I totally get it. Alot of my confusion stems from confusion arising from that culture/religion boundary which seems to be very blurred. In some cultures, and some bios Ive read certain things like FGM, wearing the veil etc are attributed to Islam rather than to the respective culture and thats where it gets confusing for the reader.

 

[summer rain]

FGM is found in majority Christian/animist African countries as well; its found in most African countries to some extent. It dates back to the times of the pharoahs. There was recently a girl who won asylum here because she had either undergone FGM or feared she would be subjected to it in her home country of Sierra Leone; but she was Christian as were her family. I have read that FGM was practiced by the Falasha Jews in Ethiopia and possibly may still be so by those still living there; Israel banned them from practicing it when they moved there though, it is also widespread amongst Christians in Eritrea and Ethiopia; its actually the Somali region of Ethiopia with the lowest rates of FGM in that country, I was reading that it was widespread in Kenya amongst all religions until about 30 years ago where the government did a concerted campaign to instigate an alternative initiation ceremony involving poetry and stories, but the most severe pharonic circumcision is still widespread amongst the Masai there. Same with Egypt it is also practiced by copts. The majority of Muslim majority countries FGM is not practiced at all and it is illegal in Saudi, which is enforced. I had a friend (non-Muslim) living in Saudi, she had an Egyptian maid; she didn't want to give the maid her bonus because she knew she was going to use it to take her daughter back to Egypt for FGM; the maid could not have done it in Saudi as she would have been deported. Wearing the veil (as in covering the face) is from Islam, it isn't obligatory though according to most jurists past and present and the women I know who wear it not only do so completely of their own volition but often against the wishes of their family/husbands. There also isn't a single country where wearing it is obligatory by law; despite reports to the contrary. Sometimes there may be local customs but these often pre-date Islam, some bedouin in Saudi Arabia wear a face veil or mask 24/7 and their husbands haven't even seen their face but they used to wear similar clothing before Islam and had similar odd practices. Veiling the face is mentioned in the bible and was historically known in certain Jewish sects as well; some Jews in Yemen the women do cover their face to this day; but amongst Ashkenazi Jews the practice is banned by rabbinical law.

 

[Lightworker]

So interesting. Being Kenyan I know that FGM is not attributed to Islam there but I know of women from countries like Yemen, Somalia and some middle eastern countries whereby they were told in order to be "good Muslim girls" they had to be cut. The same goes for the veil. Its when you read stuff like that that you end up with all these misconceptions about the role of religion in certain practices ya know. Its great to get info from you on this cuz alot of people are (understandably) very defensive.

 

[summer rain]

I have heard of ladies being told that FGM is from the bible as well; so its just the general level of ignorance in some cultures often due to poor literacy etc. In Somalia the religious leaders speak out against it and when the Islamic courts system was briefly in power a while back; they were paying women who peformed FGM to be retrained in other jobs; so that they would no longer perform FGM; this fell by the wayside now though as the country has slipped back into war. In the middle east its only Egypt where FGM is widely performed; in most middle eastern countries it doesn't exist and in yemen/UAE the rates are really low and the most common form amongst those who do have it is not the same form as in Somalia; its removing a tiny fingernail sized sliver of skin from the hood of the clitoris; which can lead to infection and doesn't have any religious basis, but anyway its not the pharonic circumcision at all. In Somalia although some tribal groups do practice the pharonic; many do not perform any type of FGM (my husband is from a minority ethnic group there and they don't nor do others of a similar background) and a large proportion again perform the minor yemeni kind. Most north African countries, Syria, Jordan, Palestine, Lebanon, Qatar, Kuwait and Iran FGM doesn't exist in any form, Iraq a tiny minority of Kurds in isolated areas perform the minor form also found in Yemen and anthropologists actually believe this is something they have had in their culture since BC times and its actually their lack of interaction with the wider Arab Iraqi society that has led to it not dying out completely as it has in the rest of Iraq.

 

[Lightworker]

I cannot be 100% sure but I think it was UNICEFs world report or some such publication that actually listed Yemen as having the highest rates of FGM. This was a 2010 publication I think. BTW I hope you dont mind me asking, but what is your profession. I am fascinated!

 

[ShanandBoc]

Summer Rain, how do u feel about France banning the burqa?

 

[Lightworker]

Summer Rain, how do u feel about France banning the burqa?

I know you asked Summer rain but I couldnt help but add my two cents here. Its a bit of a toughie because on one hand you want to allow people to dress how they want, but on the other, the collective needs of society, including security etc need to be met as well.

I for one think it is overall a good idea because whilst I acknowledge the argument that the burqa was meant to empower women, I have read many books whereby the burqa was imposed on the girl, and was not, originally at least, her choice. To me it reinforces the idea that women need to cover up and I cannot find a justifiable reason as to why.

 

[summer rain]

Huggermom I take figures on FGM with a pinch of salt, as they can vary so widely and also sometimes contradict medical professionals working in those countries, but no matter which figures you believe the style of FGM done in Yemen is less invasive than male circumcision, although risky and unnecessary unlike male circumcision. Many of the big NGOs don't distinguish between different forms which I believe is unhelpful in tackling the issue.

As for my profession I'm just a stay at home mum, and have done some dressmaking here and there. I would like to train as a breastfeeding peer supporter and maybe do journalism, I have had a few articles published but only in Islamic magazines though.

As for banning the burqa no I don't agree, the bottom line is only a tiny number of women wear the niqab (burqa is that blue shuttlecock looking garment from Afghanistan) in France and so far they have never had any issues with security or crime to do with it. I believe this law is a diversion tactic by Sarkozy especially considering the national front are once again gaining ground in France and with his lowest ever opinion poll ratings he wants to regain some ground. There are far more pressing worries for all French people but this move is diverting attention away from those. Also let's just say their false belief about women being forced to wear it is true, banning it will only push those women back indoors and away from participating in society, the complete opposite of what the French government claim to want to achieve. Also I really don't like the undertones of this, which is, like in so many other things that somehow Muslim women particularly those of non western origins are somehow of inferior intellect and don't know what is good for them, therefore for their own 'good' they need infantilising and being forced to do the opposite of what they actually want. I'm sorry but this is really what a lot of this boils down to.