Do you think this is right?

[redpoppy]

I think the sentencing is about right but I say this assuming the judge took factors into consideration.

If a wife is bullied, repeatedly beaten and raped and one day "flips" I would expect something similar.

I'm assuming this guy started to feel his daily life was affected and that would have consequences on his mental wellbeing. Yes he killed a guy and that is terrible and tragic and we have no idea what that man's intentions or mind set were. So it's a horrible act. But I don't think the stabber is of good mind at that point, due to prolonged stress and due to the circumstances.

 

[Jody R]

When my Dad was a boy he used to put dog poo in letter boxes (amongst other 'tricks'). I don't think it would be acceptable for someone to open the door and have stabbed him.

I agree that antisocial behaviour is horrible, intimidating, and very hard for the victim but that is the fault with the current policing system not picking things up. To open the door and stab someone is kind of a nuts response imo.

I wasn't saying it was an acceptable thing to do but urine or dog poo through a door is disgusting and a fragile person can be pushed to the limit by such things, sadly in this case the limit was the taking of one life and the ruining of another.

And if it is nuts to respond that way then a prison sentence without coresponding professional psychiatric help is the wrong punishment too. This man is a victim too and although he does need to be punished I don't think it's unreasonable to also pity him as a victim who was pushed to for by a gang of antisocial yobs.

Even the police gave a list of antisocial crimes the dead man and his friends were responsible for on that estate and if those crimes had been dealt with more severely when they happened then this might never have happened.

I don't know for sure but it seems unlikely to me that anyone who has killed someone, whatever the circumstances, won't have both psychiatric assessment before trial and care during the sentence.

I have plenty of pity, it's a complicated situation, have you seen my other posts?

Like I said, if the policing system was better people wouldn't be pushed in this way. We are on first names terms with our local neighbourhood officer because of the issues with antisocial behaviour where we live. We've had allsorts happen, most recently graffiti on our wall threatening someone's life. When she came to visit me recently to chat about how things are and I mentioned the graffiti she had no idea. Not only had she not seen it on the beat (I don't know how not nor did she) but she'd not been informed of it. She'd been told about the theft of fence panels all along our road (the reason for her visit). The graffiti report was passed on to victim support. The antisocial behaviour unit team have been told nothing of any of these offences. There are about 10 different units that are totally unconnected and this is why you get people commiting suicide and the police then find out there have been 400 calls over 5 years about the intimidation they've faced. It's farcical.

I'm sure he did have some sort of evaluation but you were the one who said it was nuts. It's certainly not what most people would do in his situation but is it fair to call him nuts without then accepting that he needs more help than punishment when he has been in what to him was an untolerable position?

I have read your posts, not sure if you read mine because I've never said what he did was acceptable. In essense what I said was that although he needs to be punished for taking a life I still find it easier to sympathise with Michael Williams than with Antony Kirshaw because Williams is a victim of the Kirshaw and his antisocial gang and was driven to act in a way that those who know him say was totally out of character and that he needs some sort of professional help and a bit of empathy.

And I also said in my very first post that the policing system needs to take antisocial crimes like this more seriously, which is why I posted the link about the Chief Constable in our area saying such shameful things. It's not good enough to expect the police on the street to do something about it when the people in charge don't care and the courts don't issue the appropriate punishments and that it was this let down by the judicial system that helped to put both Williams and Kirshaw in this position.

 

[PeanutBean]

I don't understand the argument you are having with me. I said it is a nuts thing to do, I didn't say that man was nuts. It's a turn of phrase.

And I read all your post, was just pointing out I'd already said policing is an issue, before you even joined the thread. I also never said you said it was an acceptable thing to do.

 

[November1984]

Wow, there are many times I have snapped but I haven't ended lives over it. 5 years is not enough at all -- you keep people in jail who are threats to society, in society sh*t happens. People play pranks on others, people try to get rises out of others..none of which should end in murder. This is sending the wrong message to people with thing like, hmmmm road rage because the same person cuts you off everyday? Ridiculous.

I myself was in TWO abusive relationships. I have snapped..you know what I do when I snap? Punch a wall at worst....this man may indeed have some mental problem though. I think it takes a certain type of person to kill BUT all things aside he is a threat to society and should not be in the general population any time soon.

 

[Jody R]

I don't understand the argument you are having with me. I said it is a nuts thing to do, I didn't say that man was nuts. It's a turn of phrase.

And I read all your post, was just pointing out I'd already said policing is an issue, before you even joined the thread. I also never said you said it was an acceptable thing to do.

I'm not having an argument with you, in fact I think we are mostly in agreement about things, which is why I didn't understand your reply to my first post.

I can see your posts about hanging and you not wanting the jury service but I can't see where you posted a similar thing to the policing issues I mentioned before I did, only after I had. I'm not sure why it matters to you who posted it first though if we both agree that more needs to be done in that area.

And you replied right after me to say your dad used to push dog poo through peoples letter boxes and that it wouldn't have been acceptable for someone to stab him. Since my post was sympathising more with the man who did the stabbing than the man who was stabbed I read your post and the comment about 'acceptable' to mean you thought I was saying he did an acceptable thing, which I didn't.

 

[redpoppy]

Wow, there are many times I have snapped but I haven't ended lives over it. 5 years is not enough at all -- you keep people in jail who are threats to society, in society sh*t happens. People play pranks on others, people try to get rises out of others..none of which should end in murder. This is sending the wrong message to people with thing like, hmmmm road rage because the same person cuts you off everyday? Ridiculous.

I myself was in TWO abusive relationships. I have snapped..you know what I do when I snap? Punch a wall at worst....this man may indeed have some mental problem though. I think it takes a certain type of person to kill BUT all things aside he is a threat to society and should not be in the general population any time soon.

I suppose I don't see it as a prank. I assume the sentence is short because there is evidence of it being part of continued threatening and abusive campaign?

 

[PeanutBean]

I don't understand the argument you are having with me. I said it is a nuts thing to do, I didn't say that man was nuts. It's a turn of phrase.

And I read all your post, was just pointing out I'd already said policing is an issue, before you even joined the thread. I also never said you said it was an acceptable thing to do.

I'm not having an argument with you, in fact I think we are mostly in agreement about things, which is why I didn't understand your reply to my first post.

I can see your posts about hanging and you not wanting the jury service but I can't see where you posted a similar thing to the policing issues I mentioned before I did, only after I had. I'm not sure why it matters to you who posted it first though if we both agree that more needs to be done in that area.

And you replied right after me to say your dad used to push dog poo through peoples letter boxes and that it wouldn't have been acceptable for someone to stab him. Since my post was sympathising more with the man who did the stabbing than the man who was stabbed I read your post and the comment about 'acceptable' to mean you thought I was saying he did an acceptable thing, which I didn't.

My apologies, I got the post order confused, was very tired and sick last night.

I perhaps wasn't explicit enough. From your earlier posts I felt like you had sympathy with the murderer over the victim and a part of the reason for this was that the victim was a drug user/drunk. I mentioned what my dad did as a boy as I wanted to show that it could've been a child pulling a prank who was the victim. To me the value of a life goes beyond whether or not that person was an addict or whatever. I don't think it is any sort of an excuse for what happened. Whoever we choose to blame for the pressure on the murderer leading to his actions my sympathy will always be with the victim for he lost his life. In this particular case I suppose there are probably a variety of failings on the part of a number of people but at the end of the day (sorry to use the phrase) this man got a knife, opened his door and stabbed another man to death. However pushed he was that strikes me as fairly premeditated.

 

[BlackBerry25]

I think 5 years is a big chunk of this guys life, he will have a criminal record, harder time getting a new job, etc. Of course the victim won't get his life back.

I think he just wanted to show the "thugs" not to mess with the neighborhood and got carried away.

I'm glad I don't have to decide on these things.

And I agree, it's different than an ongoing abuse case.

 

[redpoppy]

I think 5 years is a big chunk of this guys life, he will have a criminal record, harder time getting a new job, etc. Of course the victim won't get his life back.

I think he just wanted to show the "thugs" not to mess with the neighborhood and got carried away.

I'm glad I don't have to decide on these things.

And I agree, it's different than an ongoing abuse case.

I agree with you but don't think its about thinking or wanting to show the thugs anything. I think its about losing the plot.

I live in a neighbourhood with thugs and "yoof" and I can imagine if they target you (which peeing in your house would include) it would be horribly intimidating. It would affect your wellbeing and outlook on life. I don't think it was calculated at all. It is a life though and nothing can replace that but it's not like he plotted to go out and kill someone.

We had friends who had young idiots harassing her when she was pregnant. She was scared to leave the house. Nothing violent but being VERY intimidating. I can't remember the details but he filmed them outside their house once and instead of making them back down it made them worse!

 

[Jody R]

Hope you are feeling better Peanutbean, nothing worse than morning sickness when it decides to last all day

I'm not unsympathetic to the man who lost his life but in this case I do sympathise strongly with the man who took it.

I appreciate your point that it could have been a child but thankfully it wasn't, it was a gang of men causing trouble and not for the first time, men who were all old enough to know better but who made a habit of intimidating an entire estate, sometimes under the influence of drink and drugs and finally pushed the wrong person to his limit. It goes beyond a childish prank.

He made the wrong choice, but because he was in his own home and they were the ones who made a habit of terrorising their community I do feel more sympathy to him even though I also accept that he chose the wrong way to deal with the problem and does deserve some form of punishment.

But I am glad he has received a shorter sentence because I feel this isn't always a black and white issue and he has fallen under one of the shades of grey.

A man I used to work with once asked me to fill in a survey about the death penalty as a way to judge support for bringing it back in this country.

It had been made by the parents of his friend because their son, my colleagues friend, had been stabbed and killed and they felt that the prison sentence he received was not enough, they wanted the death penalty reinstated and although I could sympathise with why I still filled in the survey to say I disagreed with that.

What happened was that their son, A, had started university, met a girl and started dating her and her ex boyfriend had found out, gotten jealous and started causing trouble. She didn't break up with the ex to start seeing A, he hadn't met her when she broke up with her ex, so he was entirely innocent.

The ex saw them on a night out, followed them to a nightclub, tried to start a fight with A and was thrown out. So he went to fetch a knife, went back to the nightclub, waited for his ex and A to come out and then confronted them again before stabbing A repeatedly.

It's all on CCTV and at all times A is holding his hands up in a peaceful way, trying to calm the situation down, until his is stabbed and falls to the floor.

It's horrific, I saw the footage on a news report after the trial and this is clearly a case when the murderer deserves to be locked up for life. That to me is a black and white instance, he went looking for trouble, went in search of a weapon and came back with the intention of using it and committed murder on a man who didn't even try to fight back.

It's different to this case, where the murderer was sitting at home minding his own business with no thought in his head that in just a few moments he would be the victim of an antisocial crime that would push him too far or that he would react to it in the extreme and very wrong way that he did.

He does deserve a punishment but not one that matches the sentence given to the boy who murdered A. That boy should be locked up for life and it still won't be long enough or good enough. The end result was the same but to me the part before the murders is vastly different and that's enough to convince me that the sentences should reflect the difference.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1215570/It-happened--son-stabbed-death.html

 

[November1984]

Wow, there are many times I have snapped but I haven't ended lives over it. 5 years is not enough at all -- you keep people in jail who are threats to society, in society sh*t happens. People play pranks on others, people try to get rises out of others..none of which should end in murder. This is sending the wrong message to people with thing like, hmmmm road rage because the same person cuts you off everyday? Ridiculous.

I myself was in TWO abusive relationships. I have snapped..you know what I do when I snap? Punch a wall at worst....this man may indeed have some mental problem though. I think it takes a certain type of person to kill BUT all things aside he is a threat to society and should not be in the general population any time soon.

I suppose I don't see it as a prank. I assume the sentence is short because there is evidence of it being part of continued threatening and abusive campaign?

So do you think that this sends a good message to kids who are bullied by the same person or group for some time during their school age years?

Also I was in abusive relationships and terrorized for a great deal of time. I guess I should have stabbed the men to death instead of going to law enforcement (the right way).

Now a LO doesn't have a daddy..his dad was irresponsible and drunk the night he died but he cannot speak as so all the allegations being made against him. We don't know 100% of this story but either way I am not prepared to say 5 years is anything close to a man who had to pay for his crime with his life.
I would have to say in defense of the neighborhood that it does sound like law enforcement is partly to blame if in fact this has been going on for a while and was properly reported.
Peeing on a mailbox is not something that should be punishable by death though.

Here's a picture of the man who was killed:
https://www.rochdaleonline.co.uk/uploads/f1/news/img/2010423_154629.jpg

Here's some commentary I found online:

A young man, no angel certainly, but who at least appeared to be sticking around with the mother of his child, is dead. His killer may have been provoked; but the allegations that Williams was a short-tempered wierdo also seem believable.

 

[redpoppy]

Wow, there are many times I have snapped but I haven't ended lives over it. 5 years is not enough at all -- you keep people in jail who are threats to society, in society sh*t happens. People play pranks on others, people try to get rises out of others..none of which should end in murder. This is sending the wrong message to people with thing like, hmmmm road rage because the same person cuts you off everyday? Ridiculous.

I myself was in TWO abusive relationships. I have snapped..you know what I do when I snap? Punch a wall at worst....this man may indeed have some mental problem though. I think it takes a certain type of person to kill BUT all things aside he is a threat to society and should not be in the general population any time soon.

I suppose I don't see it as a prank. I assume the sentence is short because there is evidence of it being part of continued threatening and abusive campaign?

So do you think that this sends a good message to kids who are bullied by the same person or group for some time during their school age years?

Also I was in abusive relationships and terrorized for a great deal of time. I guess I should have stabbed the men to death instead of going to law enforcement (the right way).

Now a LO doesn't have a daddy..his dad was irresponsible and drunk the night he died but he cannot speak as so all the allegations being made against him. We don't know 100% of this story but either way I am not prepared to say 5 years is anything close to a man who had to pay for his crime with his life.
I would have to say in defense of the neighborhood that it does sound like law enforcement is partly to blame if in fact this has been going on for a while and was properly reported.
Peeing on a mailbox is not something that should be punishable by death though.

Here's a picture of the man who was killed:
https://www.rochdaleonline.co.uk/uploads/f1/news/img/2010423_154629.jpg

Here's some commentary I found online:

A young man, no angel certainly, but who at least appeared to be sticking around with the mother of his child, is dead. His killer may have been provoked; but the allegations that Williams was a short-tempered wierdo also seem believable.

All your points are very good and I TOTALLY understand where you're coming from but I don't suppose I'm of the belief that the punishment is what prevents crimes from happening. I don't think the we send "messages" with sentencing and that people at home sit there and think... "5 years? That's easy! I could do that, I'll probably be out after 3 with good behaviour, lets go kill that guy that's been harassing me".

I don't think taking a life should be taken lightly AT ALL. I think perhaps if we were a society committed to rehabilitation as well as punishment rather than just punishment this would be an easier issue. The murderer is not going to have an easy time, he's not going to get any great job when he gets out and be partying at only getting 5 years.

This case is VERY dependent on the small factors which determine if this guy is a threat to society. Who knows, perhaps he's more a threat now that he's committed this act as it may disturb him further and her may never recover form it. But to me it sounds like he was mentally abused and pushed in a manner that wasn't normal in everyday life. As i've said its makign assumptions but I assume the judge and jury took these into consideration perhaps? I could be wrong. The judge could be biased against youth etc. you never know....

As for your abuse. Well done for dealing with it in the right way. It makes you an amazing person and one who is able to speak from a perspective where you've achieved something in similar circumstances. But firstly, this is why you're not in jail and secondly, IF you were to have "flipped" under pressure then I think many people would feel sympathy for you. I am very harsh towards anyone in power, be it physical or emotional or political or anything really who continues to abuse their advantage. The human mind isn't made to withhold continues pressure in that way and many times people either lose their grip on reality or become mentally unwell and may lead to violence either directed at themselves or outwardly. It never makes violence right but it makes it less wrong when it's a REACTION to something as oppose to just from nowhere.

But then I imagine my reality is quite warped. I slept with a knife under my bed for about five years after we got burgled.

 

[PeanutBean]

Thanks Jody, I mostly have it 24/7 but having felt improved in the day I felt all the worse for it in the evening!

I thought for a moment you were describing an incident in my home town where an ex went off, got a knife and stabbed a guy through a taxi window. And I totally agree with you. There are shades and degrees that should always be taken into consideration. I'm honestly thankful every day that we don't have capital punishment in the UK anymore. I don't believe in an eye for an eye, I don't believe in taking anyone's life whatever they've done and it's so important to be able to undo a sentence in cases of new evidence or proven innocence.

I think this guy, who like I said must surely have had some time fetching an implement before doing this shows a larger degree of premeditation than say a domestic argument in the kitchen with someone snapping and turning on the other, but likewise there is far less premeditation than the case you mentioned which is clearly real premeditated murder.

I do feel strongly about the role of local policing in these sorts or cases. Like that one a while back, was it a mum took the life of her disabled daughter or something like that after years of abuse that didn't trigger the appropriate police response? Unfortunately cutting police budgets now won't only mean a loss of police on the beat but also the reduction in time spent on paperwork will no doubt mean even more repeat offences of this nature won't get matched up.

 

[November1984]

Poppy, sorry you were burglarized and afraid from it! I think that is different if someone is inside your home trespassing and they get attacked.

I do feel sympathy for women who kill their abusers and end up jailed for life BTW. I don't condone them killing their OHs BUT to me there is much more reason to be snapping after years of emotional and physical abuse in that way behind closed doors. In many cases the women involved are told they will be killed if they leave the abuser as well. I for one, hate physical altercations in general and instead got my ex husband jailed....I recorded him admitting to all abuse and even threats to commit a murder-suicide involving me. I handed this to law enforcement and he was jailed and not allowed to be around me anymore.

I lived in a neighborhood that was vandalized repeatedly in a similar manner as this story details...personally as long as no stranger entered my home I wouldn't think firstly to grab a weapon and head outside. Most people don't automatically react like that, I think the ones that do may be a threat because they have some underlying problems that need to be addressed. I mean what if this wasn't a 25 year old man, what if this was a minor acting out that got stabbed and died?

People do some idiotic things and I just think this man who died was likely on the wrong side of the tracks, addicted to drugs and/or alcohol and if proper policing would have occurred could have been rehabilitated in different programs.

The whole situation just should have not happened and now the impact on the dead man and his family will be forever....likely on the jailed man too.

 

[PeanutBean]

I agree with everything you've said there November

If it were an intrusion like that through the letter box of my house my instant response would be to call the police. We've been harassed, not to that extent, in both houses we've owned and have called the police many times. I cannot imagine how someone could have such a different and extreme response and agree that whether it was directly from the intimidation campaign or from something else this man must've been somewhat unhinged to have responded in this way. Howsoever this sort of thing could IMO always have been prevented through earlier policing or judicial action.

 

[redpoppy]

I suppose I also do find the act very offensive and intrusive. I also think spitting at someone (unless you're a gorgoues baby! ) is a very degrading act. I'd rather someone tries to hit me than spit on me. Someone peeing in my house, on my carpet, to me would be intrusive. It would inside my house. And I would feel personally targeted especially if the same group had done something similar before. I wouldn't know what these types of people would be capable of if I were to leave my home. Would they think it funny to try and pee on me in the street? Would they do worse? I would feel very threatened. I know you can't just go around killing people who pee through your letterbox or who bully you etc. but I think MANY times the police are powerless to do anything in these situations and most times IN my experiences nothing is done or at least nothing is achieved.

Random example of something completely different but about faith in the "authorities". There is a house across the park which is in front of our house which regularly plays EXTREMELY loud music till 3am. It happened last night to the extent that my baby was disturbed through the night. it happens on average at least once a month but most times more. Yes it's no a weekend but it can sometimes be both friday and saturday night. I can hear it and it keeps me awake (till i finally drop off from exhaustion but before having a baby it would keep me awake till 3). Nothing is ever done about it despite reporting the incidents. If I can hear it across the park I imagine the neighbours in this residential area are livid. Last time I called no one answered (the noise pollution dept.) The time before I asked if they could stop it because it was reoccurring but they said they had not record of it despite me already complaining about the house. We can't stop it.

My friends who were harassed by those kids could not stop it.

The Police aren't there when things happen and then what are they going to do afterwards? How do they find these people?

 

[PeanutBean]

Redpoppy the noise pollution is something that really p's me off. For donkeys years we've lived near people who've caused problems like this. We have endlessly reported to the police who will usually send someone but they actually have no powers for this at all! It is the local authority who are responsible and to push through a complaint we are expected to keep a diary for weeks, months, documenting the type, duration and nature of the noise. It's totally stupid! We did keep a diary for one of the people - a young dosser living across the road who partied night and day, week and weekend, endlessly. I sent in the diary with many hours documented of excessive noise and was told it wasn't sufficient to put out any sort of order. WTF?! The same goes for fire. There ar no regulations about private fires at all no matter how bad they are. I looked this up last summer when we couldn't dry our clothes outside almost the whole season because a nearby neighbour was tearing down half his house and rebuilding it, seemingly burning anything and everything. For weeks the smoke filled half the estate we are by, was so thick it was like a pea souper near the house and the smell was clearly indicative of some seriously illegal stuff being burnt but the council had nothing to say on the matter, only companies flouting waste disposal or air pollution act regulations. Just ridiculous!

 

[twinkle1975]

While I do not agree with or condone the stabbing in this story - the man who was stabbed wasn't a child or a 'yoof' playing silly pranks - he was a 25 year old man who should have known better than to pee through someone's letter box!