Formula under lock and key....comments?

[lozzy21]

I had no idea that is how things are in the UK...interesting! Some women in the US have complained that nurses were pushing formula...either way I do not think anything should be pushed. Whatever a woman decides should be supported.

In the UK do you feel you get good BF support?

It depends on your area, i couldent fault the BF support i had, i had the BF consultant sit with me for 3 hours two days in a row trying to get my akward child to latch. When we got home and the health visitor (childrens nurse) came to visit she asked if i wanted to stick with formula or try to get her back on the breast and when i told her i wanted to give BF another go she rang the BF support worker there and then who came out to see me the next day. She came out several times to see me over 4 months and there was also a support group i could go along to every week if i needed a support or just wanted a chat and some lunch.

 

[MindUtopia]

To be honest, I don't see the big deal, though I plan to breastfeed myself. It doesn't mean you can't use formula. It just means you have to ask for it (and it can't just be given to your baby without your consent) or bring your own if you don't choose to ask for it. Even if I knew now that I wanted to exclusively formula feed, I'd still be pretty pissed off at the idea that these big corporations can pay hospitals to push their specific products instead of allowing me to choose which formula I want to go with. I feel like a hospital isn't the best place for advertising to be happening. There should be no shame if you choose to formula feed because that's what works for you, but you should still have the right to choose which products you want to use, and not just have a certain one forced on you because you happen to be in a hospital. It would really annoy me not to have that choice at such an important time in my child's life. Formula samples aren't available in hospitals because those companies care about your baby or want to support you in anyway. They just want your money and your brand loyalty. So why not just do the research and choose a brand that's right for you on your own, and make sure you bring what you need with you? Then you'll be in a much better position anyway to learn what works for your baby and your family as far as quality and long term costs.

 

[Eala]

I don't think anyone is talking about advertising or samples, that's a different issue. The initiative in question went one step further and was essentially treating formula as if it was a dangerous controlled drug along the same lines as morphine! Banning advertsing is one thing, but subjecting parents to a "BREAST IS BEST!!!" lecture before every single bottle is demeaning and downright wrong. I also feel it is a waste of nursing time. How about providing funding for enough staff to provide meaningful breastfeeding support, rather than expensive, bullying initiatives which do nothing to change longterm feeding rates.

 

[MindUtopia]

I don't think anyone is talking about advertising or samples, that's a different issue. The initiative in question went one step further and was essentially treating formula as if it was a dangerous controlled drug along the same lines as morphine! Banning advertsing is one thing, but subjecting parents to a "BREAST IS BEST!!!" lecture before every single bottle is demeaning and downright wrong. I also feel it is a waste of nursing time. How about providing funding for enough staff to provide meaningful breastfeeding support, rather than expensive, bullying initiatives which do nothing to change longterm feeding rates.

But what's provided in the hospital are advertising samples provided by companies who have paid to have their products placed in a specific hospital. That's why they're free. Just like when you go to your doctor and they give you free samples of whatever kind of medication to try out. Those are dropped off by sales reps who have an intimate relationship with those particular physicians or hospitals and pay them in kind - dinners, vacations, gifts - to offer samples to their patients as part of a sales campaign. It's the same with formula in hospitals. There's nothing wrong with using formula, and it's a great option just like breastfeeding if it's fits well with your life and makes you and baby happy. But I think it would make me more comfortable knowing if I wanted it, that I'd have to ask for it and consent for it to be given to my child. It's just like there's nothing wrong with, say, taking antidepressants if you need them. But I'd be pretty pissed off with my doctor if every time I saw her she gave me free samples of antidepressants because she's hoping if she gets 10 more patients to request a prescription this month, she gets a free spa weekend for her and her friends. Yes, seriously, this is how it works. I would want my doctor and hospital to work with me to find the best approach to feeding my baby because it's the best approach, not because it financially benefits them.

Now definitely I think it would be better if these sort of financial incentives were removed from the equation altogether, but there is a huge lobbying effort to keep them in place because they work for so many people (namely, corporate executives, doctors, and hospital executives). Preventing the use of the hospital room for marketing of any product is a crappy alternative to actually dealing with the real issue, which is unethical business practices in health products and pharmaceutical marketing, but it's a start, I guess. But I agree, more trained support needs to be there to support women whatever their choice is. Unfortunately, that doesn't make as much money as the product placement does, so there isn't much motivation to make it happen sadly.

 

[Eala]

These aren't samples which are being given out. We're not talking goody bags or stashes of things being left in people's rooms. I really do not believe for one moment that every single bottle of formula given to babies in a hospital is a sample. I know that UK hospitals buy formula (albeit there is no advertising allowed here). We're talking about the actual provision of food for a baby when the Mum decides (for whatever reason) that breastfeeding isn't for her. This isn't someone who planned to FF from birth, as otherwise she would've brought her own formula.

You're missing my point, I think. This isn't about nurses (or doctors or whoever) being told they can't push/offer formula. That bit is fine, I've no issues with that. This is the about that fact that every time you ask for formula you will be given a lecture[/I]. You cannot just take the bottle and feed your baby. You have to find a member of staff, find one who has the keys (unless they really have dropped that part), get the formula, make it up (unless it's RTF) and THEN you can feed your baby. By which point, what is your baby doing? Crying hysterically, probably. And if that were me, I'd be crying too.

How about the officials give womens' intelligence a bit more credit? If you don't want formula, don't ask for it, problem solved. If you do want formula, why the lectures from the staff? What's the point? What will it accomplish? How about instead, offer meaningful breastfeeding support (both in AND out of hospitals) so that a person has the best chance possible. How about not pushing a "one-size-fits all, all or nothing" approach, where a person feels that they have no choice but to exclusively breastfeed, or they are a failure? THe problem is that all of the above take money, staff and time, which officials are loathe to provide. Much cheaper and easier to draft up some legislation which will get the fanatics onside (thus give free publicity), print a few posters and then sit back saying "Look, we support breastfeeding, vote for us, yay!"

 

[lozzy21]

I don't think anyone is talking about advertising or samples, that's a different issue. The initiative in question went one step further and was essentially treating formula as if it was a dangerous controlled drug along the same lines as morphine! Banning advertsing is one thing, but subjecting parents to a "BREAST IS BEST!!!" lecture before every single bottle is demeaning and downright wrong. I also feel it is a waste of nursing time. How about providing funding for enough staff to provide meaningful breastfeeding support, rather than expensive, bullying initiatives which do nothing to change longterm feeding rates.

But what's provided in the hospital are advertising samples provided by companies who have paid to have their products placed in a specific hospital. That's why they're free. Just like when you go to your doctor and they give you free samples of whatever kind of medication to try out. Those are dropped off by sales reps who have an intimate relationship with those particular physicians or hospitals and pay them in kind - dinners, vacations, gifts - to offer samples to their patients as part of a sales campaign. It's the same with formula in hospitals. There's nothing wrong with using formula, and it's a great option just like breastfeeding if it's fits well with your life and makes you and baby happy. But I think it would make me more comfortable knowing if I wanted it, that I'd have to ask for it and consent for it to be given to my child. It's just like there's nothing wrong with, say, taking antidepressants if you need them. But I'd be pretty pissed off with my doctor if every time I saw her she gave me free samples of antidepressants because she's hoping if she gets 10 more patients to request a prescription this month, she gets a free spa weekend for her and her friends. Yes, seriously, this is how it works. I would want my doctor and hospital to work with me to find the best approach to feeding my baby because it's the best approach, not because it financially benefits them.

Now definitely I think it would be better if these sort of financial incentives were removed from the equation altogether, but there is a huge lobbying effort to keep them in place because they work for so many people (namely, corporate executives, doctors, and hospital executives). Preventing the use of the hospital room for marketing of any product is a crappy alternative to actually dealing with the real issue, which is unethical business practices in health products and pharmaceutical marketing, but it's a start, I guess. But I agree, more trained support needs to be there to support women whatever their choice is. Unfortunately, that doesn't make as much money as the product placement does, so there isn't much motivation to make it happen sadly.

That doesnt happen in the UK, its illegal. The formula supplied by the hospitals is paid for by the hospitals, its not like the US where one or two doctors run a hospital, the hospitals are run by the NHS and the doctors have no say in what medications or formula are supplied. You also dont get free samples of medication unless you have been asked to take part in a trail while will be closely monitored, they dont just hand them out as a free for all. You also dont get packets of formula as freebes again this is illegal in the uk.

 

[DaisyBee]

I tried breastfeeding Megan and had a horrible time with it as I have had a breast reduction. I was induced at 37 weeks with her and she was tiny and wouldnt latch. The lactation consultants practically camped out in my room during my stay. I was to be pumping every 2 hrs, trying to get her to latch every 2 hrs, and feeding her every 2 hrs as she was small per her pediatrician. It became impossible as by the time the whole thing was done we had about 30 minutes before starting all over again. And dh doesnt have paternity pay and was back to work in 5 days. So I stopped trying to breastfeed and just tried pumping. I wasnt producing nearly enough. Not even 1/4 of what she needed. And I was in pain - in my scar tissue as they said my milk ducts must not have all been intact. We had to suppliment by the time we left the hospital per her pediatrician as for being tiny she was losing too much weight.

So for Jordan we said we wanted to start off with formula. THat I would pump while in the hospital for colostrum but also offering her bottles. The nurse that helped deliver her was so anti formula that she made me feel horrible and guilty for even suggesting that she get a bottle vs exclusive breastfeeding. She wouldnt even listen to me and what I had to say. SHe made me feel like a horrible mother. SHe had the lactation consultant come talk to me as she was sure that she would convince me to breastfeed (as I ended up successfully breastfeeding right after birth) but that wasnt going to change my supply problem, and needing to pump every 2 hrs just didnt seem doable with a toddler also at home (and that is every 2 hrs around the clock) in order to produce so very very little.

THe lactation consultant understood my situation. She told me it was ok to not breastfeed and that every situation is different. I cried during our conversation as I had always felt like I let Megan down and failed and now after the lectures from my nurse was feeling those same feelings all over again. Hearing that it was ok, my baby would be fine, and do what I needed to do - It was like relief washing over me.

Being a mom is hard enough without feeling like people are judging you for your choices. And some cant help those choices.

A lot of women in the us return to work by 6 weeks and the rest usually 12 weeks. A lot dont have great access to pump at work even though they are supposed to.

 

[holly2234]

To give a woman "a talking to" when she asks for formula is just wrong. The US healthcare system is not like the UK where the NHS is in charge. So its not a fair comparison to even say "well we dont get it here either".

I dont need to give anybody a reason why i fed my daughter formula. I did it because i wanted to and thats a good enough reason for me. If i got a lecture in hospital (any future babies i have will actually be born in NY) they will receive exactly the same back from me and will be promptly giving me discharge papers to sign!

 

[Arisa]

I'm getting tired of people thinking lowly of us because of formula.
I couldn't breastfeed, at all. No milk EVER came in. I was one of the lucky, 2%?

I'm proud to say my formula eating son is freaking awesome and healthy and built like a complete brick and is so smart.

They act like breast milk is gold over formula, which okay, it's better to a certain extent, but come the hell on already, we are not feeding our children poison!


Stupid idiot. gr.

I know and completely agree
My milk did not come in, i was also in that small percentage of women whose milk did not come in due to my strong medications for depression and anxiety and i cannot just stop taking my meds that would be bloody stupid but you cannot just make a sweeping statement like that no matter what city you are mayor of, what do they know???? have they been in our shoes? no they have not so stay out of it, and stop making formula look like poison, its not alcohol for goodness sake

 

[lysh]

There have been so many good points made.

I will admit, I was given free samples of formula at my OB appt. The reps drop them off and the docs just pass them out. They were not pushed on me, they just said "these are given to us by reps you can do what you want with them."

I have heard stories where at hospitals nurses give formula sometimes to keep the baby quiet when they are not suppose too (not sure how true, often that happens, but that is the rumor). That is obviously wrong and should be monitored.

However, I agree that lecturing a woman (which honestly is only going to make her feel like crap) is demeaning and wrong. I did not even think of the fact that while all of this 'political' stuff is going on, that a baby is potentially crying and waiting for food.

To me, the money does need to be spent more on support for women who want to breastfeed. Yes, there are LCs in the hospital, but our country is not supportive of BF moms. Every mother should have access to a pump, LCs should automatically get in touch with moms more than once (I mean, once home a mom is overwhelmed and potentially dealing with baby blues, if LCs call mothers who are trying to breastfeed then it keeps the line of communication open). And how about giving moms time to stay HOME with their babies???? I am getting NO paid time off. The only thing I am getting is my health insurance covered for 12 weeks, of which I still need to pay 10% of the costs. If we could not have afforded to loose my pay, I would have had to go back when she was 8 weeks old and that is only because I am a teacher and gave birth during the summer.

Formula should not be pushed on mothers who do not want it and nurses should not go near a baby with it who is going to be EBF. However, it is wrong to make a mom feel guilty for going the FF route. What will be next? Life is about Risk Versus Benefit. If a woman cannot BF for whatever reasons (post partrum included) then at that point the benefit of breast milk would probably not be worth the risk to mom's mental health and therefore the babies emotional well being. Nothing is every cut and dry.

 

[Eala]

I really like the post which Momma Data has done on this issue. Sums up my feelings pretty well:

https://www.mommadata.com/2012/08/backlash-on-bloombergs-latch-on-new.html

 

[lysh]

I really like the post which Momma Data has done on this issue. Sums up my feelings pretty well:

https://www.mommadata.com/2012/08/backlash-on-bloombergs-latch-on-new.html

Thanks for posting....there were some interesting points she made. I am also interested in learning more about the research on breastfeeding she mentions throughout the article....research we never hear about.

 

[vintage67]

I think when they overstep like this, it creates a backlash with a lot of hurt feelings and anger. It could possibly even be detrimental to breastfeeding rates. I don't think threats and scare tactics are the way to promote something.

 

[lysh]

https://www.babble.com/baby/baby-fe...ottle-feeding-why-baby-formula-is-not-so-bad/

There are some typos in this article, but also makes interesting points!

 

[vintage67]

Yes, I've read that one before. I never hear anyone say formula is just as good as breastmilk. No one. But it isn't giving a baby a cigarette to puff off of either.

I imagined the woman ringing up my two containers of formula yesterday was a raging lactivist and told her off for being rude. She looked stunned. I think I am going mail order for all of my formula from now on. I just can't take the "looks"; real or perceived.

 

[lysh]

Vintage- I hear ya, we are going to order ours from Amazon- cheaper that way anyway.

This is another reason for people to have a 'better than you' attitude.

The problem is exactly what you said....giving formula is not nicotine or poison.

I buy as much organic produce and grass-fed meat as possible....should I start giving dirty looks to those that do not?? I mean come on, yes some things in life are better....breast is better but cannot always work for EVERY woman and family. Organic is better....not everyone can afford it. We do the best we can in life....if we love our children that is the BEST gift we can give them for their health and well-being.

 

[Eala]

If you do a Google Scholar search for breastfeeding and filter it to recent studies, you can find some of the research mentioned. It's not always publically available but you should be able to read the abstracts at least.

Basically all the research is overblown, with the researchers forgetting that correlation is not the same as causation. They can't "prove" anything. But for some reason, the WHO and Governments around the world are buying into this decidedly shoddy research and basing policy on it

I remember when my eldest was just a couple of months old, there was a Swedish team of researchers who did a meta-analysis and concluded that the benefits of breastfeeding had been blown out of proportion. The backlash was huge (waves of people screaming that they were out to booby trap women), and then it was all swept under the carpet.

At the end of the day, if you're feeding your baby, you've not failed. There are so many real issues out there facing parents today (like the lack of maternity leave in the USA, the lack of pumping facilities in workplaces the world over, the lack of clean water in the developing world to name but a few), that it seems really petty to be going after women because of the way they choose to feed their child for the first 6 months to a year of the child's life...

 

[Saphira]

Was anything mentioned about exclusively breastfed babies having higher IQs in that Swedish study, Eala? I've read that on various sites and it's the one thing that bothers me still months after my "breastfeeding failure".

 

[lysh]

Was anything mentioned about exclusively breastfed babies having higher IQs in that Swedish study, Eala? I've read that on various sites and it's the one thing that bothers me still months after my "breastfeeding failure".

There are some questions if that is because those that breastfeed might also be more educated or likely to read/stimulate their child. There could be other factors outside of breastfeeding that brings that correlation.

 

[Eala]

I'm posting from my phone so don't have any info to hand about it at the moment, Saphira, and can't remember. From what I've seen on other sites (including Momma Data), the studies into IQ really didn't show any statistically relevant differences in IQ. What seems to be more relevant is the mother's IQ, but there needs to be more research.

I think the BBC did a newspiece on the Swedish study that may answer your question (it was back in 2009, so it may even have a link to the research website as they used to do that).

There are several Cochrane Reviews on breastfeeding research that I keep meaning to have a proper read of, but somehow I haven't had the time recently