I know I'm a Daily Mail style leftist feminazi but...

[PeanutBean]

 

[Aunty E]

I agree, and so does my OH! One of the reasons I just can't watch 'One born every minute' is the way some of the men behave. Oh, and what's all this 'let's get this baby out' and 'we need to get this baby out' from the fathers? What precisely are they doing to 'get the baby out'? Are they contracting? Are they dilating? No? Then SOD OFF with the 'we' and 'us'. I am doing this, that is ME, myself, not YOU.

And breathe.

 

[PeanutBean]

God if my DH said anything like that I'd sock him one. It's bad enough when it comes from medics who don't know you but your loving partner?! When is it ever helpful? Do they think it's like sport and we have a magic hidden reserve that if we only try a bit harder it'll all come out? Because up until pushing we've been totally idle?

 

[Linzi]

The way I see it is that even though that this is a baby I have grown and will be giving birth to, it's still his baby and IMO he should still have a right to make a decision with me.

As Ive posted before my hubby isn't fully swung on home birth yet and he has told me that if it's what I really want he will go along with it, but I want him to be happy with the decision too, as it's his baby that is being born too. IMO fathers have exactly equal rights to mothers unless either party proves to be unfit otherwise, so why should I exclude him from this decision?

I guess I'm very fortunate that we did have a very positive hospital experience first time round, and also that he is not controlling or trying to push me either way. I guess if either of those circumstances were different then I would think differently.

BUT I do totally see what you mean and I understand I guess the way I've been brought up (single father, unfit mother), the relationship with my husband and previous experience has made me feel this way.

Not being rude, having a go etc just my 2p worth xxx

 

[PeanutBean]

I think your right linzi that with a supportive OH it's kind of easier to give him more say especially as he's likely to agree with you!

The stuff I read on here sometimes... Not in the homebirth section but generally. OH's who don't want mum to bf as they want to feed too or refuse to 'let' their lady consider anything other than a medicated hospital birth etc. It makes my blood boil. It's probably even worse that these ladies invariably go along with it convincing themselves their inclination doesn't run a different way. It's just bonkers.

I guess there is a line, like if I was all I'm going to do smack all my pregnancy then I want to deliver under the railway arches with smack for pain relief or something then yeah, I do think the father of the baby has plenty of right to intervene but who is really like that? It's just normal rational women wanting what's best for them and their baby and controlling men who to all intents and purposes seem to be simply jealous that women can do something they can't. And then usually go on to be fairly neglectful fathers.

 

[Linzi]

Oh I agree with that ^ but that's a personality flaw of the man thinking he can control the woman. Any money the same OHs tell their partners when they can go out. who they can go out with, what they can wear, what time they need to be back etc.

Some men are divvys xx

 

[PeanutBean]

Ignorant men! Think they know it all.

 

[Bournefree]

The reason why I don't think I got the gist of the thread earlier, was because I thought you were just saying that women should have more respect for themselves. But I can't get on board with bloke-bashing. I'm wouldn't describe myself as a feminist - I would describe myself as a humanist ~(if I had to pick lables) So that is the reason I'm not getting this, I wonder.
.... and I'm really not the type of person that can be taken lightly where my rights and freedoms are concerned… and would be behind anyone who feels THEIR rights are being played with (and I have, both personally and professionally) However, I think that it's better to have sympathy for those people that might not feel they are getting their certain point across to their loved ones, rather than berate them for being weak.
That's got to be at least 4pence worth

 

[2ndtimeAbz]

I can agree with both sides of that,
I'm lucky that my OH is really supportive, sometimes he questions why I want to do things but that's only because he's interested and he wants to make sure I'm doing things for the right reasons. I like that because it makes me really think about why I'm making certain decisions and really affirm my choices. I don't know what would happen if we really locked horns as he is a bit stubborn but I think in this instance of pregnancy and childbirth he understands that this is ultimately my thing - not his.
When I hear about other womens OH's trying to control the situation (usually with overbearing mother in tow) it makes me feel a mix of frustrated and sad.
Sometimes in this world everyone gets so beat-down and can't believe in themselves enough to make their own decisions and fight their corners. Give people enough information and enough belief in themselves and I think things would change. . .

 

[PeanutBean]

Sorry Bourne I don't quite understand your response so sorry if I am misinterpreting. Ignoring the past couple of tongue in cheek posts about men, in sincerity I don't think I or anyone else are bloke bashing. It's not about men not having any rights so much as not being qualified. For example, I might have strong opinions about racial prejudice but I would never feel I could know how it feels or how it should be best handled having never been a victim of it. I can never be a black woman just as a man can never give birth. That person's rights and feelings should always come first.

Also I don't think anyone berated any women for being weak. I agree with the post above about education. I think it's a terrible shame that women are feeling they haven't sufficient confidence or rights to assert themselves over their pregnancy and birth. That goes for any adversary, not just an overbearing OH, but in laws, other women, medics, anyone. I think a lot is down to ignorance both of our rights and options and also of how it could be.

We've strayed a little but I originally made the thread to challenge this idea that there is something wrong with birth being 'woman's domain' and that we should be finding trite ways to pretend men can be really involved beyond the all-important job of supporting their partner.

 

[Mervs Mum]

How cool is it that we can have a proper discussion about this and no one is falling out. I love you 'wymin folks'!

 

[PeanutBean]

I was thinking that too. I the homebirth section!

 

[Tegans Mama]

Personally I think men are pretty useless

My opinion on this is... my body. Not so much MY baby, if that makes sense, but I am the one who is going through it, and I am most comfortable in my own home. I'm pretty sure my OH would put my comfort before any little whingy wants she had, I know she seems like a bit of a fruitcake but really she is absolutely bloody lovely and NOTHING is more important to her than what I want/need to make things easier. Sometimes she gets a bit "omg, rly? You want to do WHAT!" but after a bit of talking to she often comes around to my way of thinking. I think what bothers her most about a HB is worrying about the 'safety' of it all. Oh, and the mess.
"Is there gonna be blood up the walls, like, cos I'm not cleanin' that up..."

 

[Mervs Mum]

TM You know I LOVE your OH so much! Shes just like most OHs out there...deep down all they want is for everyone to be ok. I think the issue is men in particular are 'fixers' and practical about the issue of birth when it's a much, much deeper issue than just having a healthy baby to most women. It's a rite of passage.

 

[snagglepat]

I can't believe I haven't spotted this thread before! It's so right up my street AND I love the way everyone is able to be so open about their opinions without falling out. Go the natural birthy types!

I can see where Bourne is coming from in a lot of the things she's said, but I think there are two points here. The first is about partners being supportive of the pregnant woman's choices, understanding that it's her journey and their role is to support her in it however that can best be done. Full stop. This is not gender specific, which is where I think where the minor issue might be. From the point of conception until after the birth it is the birth mother's experience entirely. It makes no difference whether the partner is the FOB or not. My partner isn't, but she's an equal parent to this baby and our DD and every parenting choice will be made jointly, as was the decision to have both of them. Until I've pushed the little monkey out, it's my domain though and I expect (and joyfully receive) full support, care and co-operation. That doesn't mean that we won't discuss things, share ideas and that I won't consider and want to know and honour my partner's feelings, just that if it came to the crunch I'd expect to have the casting vote. (To be fair, I think most of us are saying the same kind of thing on this front, just in slightly different ways.)

The second point is about birth being a women's space, which hasn't been explored quite so much but I think is kind of where the original post was coming from - and it's a bit more controversial. At the end of the day, it should be the mother's choice who is there at her birth and in a lot of ways the gender of the people present is of no relevance as long as they're being supportive in all the right ways, but traditionally birth has been a women-only space. It was only when men started entering that space when the medical establishment started to take over that we began to lose so much of our natural birthing wisdom and many of the 'problems' that we now see that can only be 'fixed' by medical intervention started to appear. It is so, so sad that we have lost so many of our confident, competent midwives because they have been ostracised, and the new ones being trained in their stead are only trained in hospital birth that can't possibly happen 'safely' without a myriad of beeping machines. It's why organisations such as the Association of Radical Midwives are so important. They're our last hope for keeping some sense of women-centred normality in birth. This bit of my rant could go on for some time so I'll stop while the going is still good, but you get the idea. We've gone a long way down a particular path and have almost reached the point of no return, but here we are, in our little corner, the mad ones, the hippies, the ones who make 'crazy' birth choices and fight for them to the bitter end, and we are not going to let our women's wisdom be taken from us! So there's still hope.

Oh how I love this forum section!

The other thing I can add (in a much less ranty way) about birth as a women-only domain is that the births I've attended that have been women only (single mums, mums who have decided that their partners won't be at the birth, lesbian mums with female partners present or not) have felt very, very different to all the other births I've had the honour of witnessing. There is an energy in a women-only birth that is wholly nurturing, as every woman present seems to give of herself and between them they create a matrix that holds the birthing woman safely and with love. It really is quite magical. I'm lucky enough to have had one myself and I'm very much looking forward to having another quite soon. I'm sure I'd feel differently if my partner was a supportive man, but I've been blessed with a (very) good woman, so I guess I'm going women-only. Shame.

Gina.

 

[pinkmonki]

No man bashing from me either, my posts are very tongue in cheek when it comes to my OH. So much so that he reads them and finds them funny!

I certainly think my OH is entitled to his opinion, and I do listen to him. However, the final choice is mine and mine alone. His opinion is simply that, an opinion. It's not him that's going to have to get the baby out, so really, why should he decide (or dictate in the case of some men!) how I do it?

The OH supports my choice, however if it were up to him, I know we'd be in hospital and I'd be drugged up to the eyeballs simply because he hates to see me in pain. Being a man, he cannot ever really comprehend the difference between positive and negative pain. He has seen me cry with a toothache, yet I happily (yes happily, I was cracking jokes and laughing throughout) birthed a baby without a murmur or a painkiller in sight.

I'm a strong minded, opinionated woman and quite honestly, I do believe that the time for letting men make women's choices for them has long passed! I have a great relationship and love him dearly but loving someone doesn't mean submitting to them. Actually, I think I think if I submitted to OH he'd have a heart attack haha! That could be an amusing game for a day or two..

I'm waffling now, but I'm just trying to explain myself a little. I don't pity women who submit to their OH's, that's their choice and their life, I simply don't understand the mindset is all. Anyway, I've waffled enough so perhaps I should go and burn some bras or something haha.

Ps - It is incredibly refreshing to see this thread being discussed rationally and without descending into argument. We 'Hippy' mama's rule

 

[Mervs Mum]

I'm loving this thread. Great posts all round.

 

[PeanutBean]

I think I said in my last post that all people regardless of gender that want to dictate birth conditions to the mum basically have no right. I probably never clarified but though it's something generally close to my heart the specific prompt for this thread was one about men cutting the cord in which I could sense the bemused expressions as people read my post, which then turned into either fear of my oddness or pity for what I must've been through to feel this way. The specific thing I said was that in my own eyes I see a symbolism in the father cutting the cord as a separation of mother and baby - finally he can cut that bond. I totally appreciate others won't see it this way and what's important is how they feel when it comes to their baby but I can't shake the notion. So if it came across as man-focused that's why.

That being said, I do still think there IS a gender issue, akin to my analogy with racial prejudice in a previous post. It's interesting to hear about your experiences with women only births snaggle. And there are plenty of more traditional cultures where births are still women only. I'm not one for exclusion of men and certainly wouldn't want DH to be anywhere but with me, but I do think that women, even if they haven't given birth themselves, generally speaking have an innate capacity to better understand or perhaps empathise with the situation simply by virtue of being female. We modern women may shield our fear with medicine but at our hearts, the fact that we seem to cry always at birth as if by reflex, I think we have a biologically rooted fundamental understanding of birth that men can never share.

But this isn't, or shouldn't be a feminist issue. It is one of differences in our biology. I am of the school of thought that we should accept and celebrate our differences without there being a stigma around them. It feels superficial to me, a pretence, that men (or anyone else in the room) can be anything other than a bystander to the birthing woman's experience. I feel like things like cord cutting are trite, weak attempts at male involvement when really a man (or female partner) can do so much more in physically and emotionally supporting the woman in her journey, in skin to skin and bonding in those early hours, and in parenting throughout his life, nurturing the life he shared in the creation of.

 

[PeanutBean]

On a related note, if we're straying into male medicine, I remember hearing a radio article some time about the male midwife. I forget the dates, we'll be talking perhaps 300 years ago or so I might imagine, but at the time the practice was for the women in the village to support the birth. At the time apparently the male mw was much as our ob is today. He came with his forceps and other tools to help extract the baby when there were difficulties and charged a fee. I wish I could remember more. It was interesting that men have apparently played this role for such a very long time. I wonder if cavemen helped there ill-equipped women to birth or if there ever was a time our bodies were trusted...?

 

[pinkmonki]

Funny you should say that about cutting the cord.. The OH asked if he could do it, because, and I quote 'That's pretty much the only part I can do without worrying that I'm making things worse for you' (I hate being touched and spoken to when I'm contracting)

Again, sort of along the same lines, I ranted (really, really ranted) at him a few weeks back having read a post where a woman said she wouldn't be breastfeeding because she wanted her OH to bond with the baby (argh!) and he shut me up mid-flow by simply saying 'If a man needs to stick a plastic nipple in his baby's mouth to bond, he's got far bigger issues than not wanting his wife to breastfeed!' Which I thought was a very good point, how much of 'deciding together' about labour, breastfeeding, and pregnancy is a genuine attempt at helping to choose and how much is a more serious issue of regaining a sense of control over something they have no control over?

Another topic of thought whilst I'm at it.. How many of the posts that make us (or rather, me) feel uncomfortable with regards to thinking about control issues, are simply women blaming their men for their choices for fear of being judged for wanting to bottle feed/have a pain free hospital birth etc

I'm not sure I have a point here, I'm simply putting over a few thought paths that have occurred to me recently and they (almost, nearly) fit into the path of the thread..