Long vent - Some advice/tips needed with 6yo please.

[SmartieMeUp]

As of recently, me and OH have been struggling with DD1. She's 7 in October and she has really took a turn for the worse, I don't even feel like throwing her a party.

From the age of 2 she has been really bouncy - can't sit down and would bounce on one ankle. While in reception, her teachers monitored her behaviour but nothing serious came of it. She had a habit of playing/putting things in the toilet too.

She's intelligent, loves to read and has been ahead with her schooling, but even her teacher had to give me daily reports in the final 4 weeks of term because of her disruptive behaviour and inability to listen.

She does things which she knows she's not supposed to do and when we ask her why, she goes "I don't know" / "I don't know how to be good".

She's beginning to lie, she doesn't follow instructions nor listen to me and OH. When me and OH take away her "luxuries" being her TV/phone (OH's old one - uses it for youtube) she will then start to draw all over her body. We even caught her one night tipping green pen ink into her drinking water!!

She's always been emotionally unstable, she cries at almost anything, she has huge outbursts or screaming, stamping and shouting "no". 10 minutes later she will act as if nothing has happened.

She constantly shouts at DD2 then cries when we tell her to stop shouting at her.

We've told her to write her feelings down in her note book and it once said "you, mummy and Olivia don't care about me" it really shattered me inside, I had to hold back tears. Another one being a picture she drew for OH saying "daddy, I'm not sorry I'm not good. I can't be good. I will never be good".

It's disgusting but she's starting to poo her knickers despite being toilet trained day and night for 4 years. Then tries to hide and lie about it.

She's got this weird obsession about being naked and other people being naked. Wanting to touch if she sees skin and it creeps me out so much.

She's delicate to noises which me/OH/DD2 make, be it tapping, music, singing, or being loud, in which she puts her fingers in her ears and shouts stop, yet finds it acceptable to do things herself.

When we go out to places, she always plays up so it makes us not want to go anywhere nice. She does stupid things with her body - starts throwing her hands and arms everywhere. One thing which really winds me up is how she just repeats the same sentence over and over, we went for a milkshake the other day and she tripped slightly with DD2and all she kept saying was "I tripped. We syncronised tripped Livs. We tripped. Ha we tripped. Syncronised. We tripped. We tripped". After acknowledging the first time with the response "yes you did" she proceeding to repeat herself. We literally had to tell her to be quiet.

Tonight she went to the toilet, washed her hands but spent around 10 minutes in there. OH shouted to her asking what she was doing and if she was messing around she said no. He asked again and her tone of voice changed to a guilty sound with "nooo---". So I went and checked on her, what a surprise, she was pumping out hand soap for no reason.

OH keeps telling me to take her to the doctors about her behaviour but it just seems pointless because I don't know what to say to them nor do I think it's anything serious - She's just acting like a sh*t because she wants to.

I'm coming to my wits end. It's driving me mental, I get drained emotionally and physically. Sometimes I get the feeling of just walking away because of it.

Sorry for the long post, needed to vent.

 

[lau86]

My oldest son is the same age and is quite similar. He has always been hard work. To be honest nothing that you’ve said seems particularly abnormal, some are just harder work than others. My son doesn’t listen, is loud and cheeky, he also does things like you said with the soap. He can be so lovely too. My son is bright with his school work and I think the brighter ones do push us harder in some ways, they know how to push the buttons. I don’t know what the answer is, I try a mixture of ignoring and time out and really praising the good times but to be honest some of our days are pretty awful at the moment between him and his brother and sister

 

[SmartieMeUp]

Thank you for acknowledging the post

That's what I mean with the doctors and OH. It doesn't scream the spectrum or other.

The thing which has really ticked me is the fact she is purposely pooing herself and hiding it. Why would any child do that?

She doesn't give any reason for doing anything as if she can't control tell her actions or urges.

She is sent to her bedroom or on the step for a time out but she growls with her cries then entire time and the sound is just ear piercing. OH ends up having to take her out for a super long walk but she refuses to leave the front door.

Her cousins aren't wanting to bother with her because of how naughty she is around them and how much she cries.

 

[Jessica60]

Same here with 6 year old but is physically hurting baby. No pooing though. She says she doesn't know why she does it.

 

[Eleanor ace]

A lot of what you describe reminds me of my brother as a child, he has OCD and now we know that a lot of his behaviors as a child were down to his OCD.

 

[SmartieMeUp]

I don't know. I wouldn't say she has a compulsion to do something, other than misbehave 'on purpose' as such.

She doesn't follow the rituals of OCD, the only things I can think of is that she takes forever getting dressed (refuses to wear clothes with buttons, socks need to sit perfectly around her toes and heel and up her leg, bottoms need to be in the middle of her hips and belly button, trousers can't be too loose around her legs else it's war and she cries).

She is anxious when trying new things and she doesn't jump off things; she steps, but I think that's more to do with lack of confidence, as DD2 is a dare devil.

 

[SmartieMeUp]

Same here with 6 year old but is physically hurting baby. No pooing though. She says she doesn't know why she does it.

Oh no Do you think it's a jealousy thing?

Saying that, when DD2 was around 10 months old, DD1 tried to put a carrier bag over her head. She didn't cry when I told her off. There was literally no emotion at all.

 

[noon_child]

She does things which she knows she's not supposed to do and when we ask her why, she goes "I don't know" / "I don't know how to be good"....


She's always been emotionally unstable, she cries at almost anything, she has huge outbursts or screaming, stamping and shouting "no". 10 minutes later she will act as if nothing has happened.....

She constantly shouts at DD2 then cries when we tell her to stop shouting at her...

It's disgusting but she's starting to poo her knickers despite being toilet trained day and night for 4 years. Then tries to hide and lie about it....

She's got this weird obsession about being naked and other people being naked. Wanting to touch if she sees skin and it creeps me out so much.

She's delicate to noises which me/OH/DD2 make, be it tapping, music, singing, or being loud, in which she puts her fingers in her ears and shouts stop, yet finds it acceptable to do things herself.

When we go out to places, she always plays up so it makes us not want to go anywhere nice. She does stupid things with her body - starts throwing her hands and arms everywhere. One thing which really winds me up is how she just repeats the same sentence over and over, we went for a milkshake the other day and she tripped slightly with DD2and all she kept saying was "I tripped. We syncronised tripped Livs. We tripped. Ha we tripped. Syncronised. We tripped. We tripped". After acknowledging the first time with the response "yes you did" she proceeding to repeat herself. We literally had to tell her to be quiet.

Tonight she went to the toilet, washed her hands but spent around 10 minutes in there. OH shouted to her asking what she was doing and if she was messing around she said no. He asked again and her tone of voice changed to a guilty sound with "nooo---". So I went and checked on her, what a surprise, she was pumping out hand soap for no reason.

OH keeps telling me to take her to the doctors about her behaviour but it just seems pointless because I don't know what to say to them nor do I think it's anything serious - She's just acting like a sh*t because she wants to.

A few things I wanted to pick up on. There were repetitions in there of her not feeling "good" and not knowing how to be "good". Most children do better with specific examples of how to behave and explanations of why something is unacceptable. Just saying "Stop being naughty" or "Be good" can be very anxiety inducing because it's like other people have all these secret rules that you have to somehow mind-read to find out about. So rather than say "You were so Good today" it's really important to pick out the specific tiny things she did that you liked or appreciated and to praise her as soon as she did it, even when it's something you would EXPECT her to do anyway. This will help her learn what the "rules" are and feel pride in conforming.

You say her screaming one minute then acting like nothing happened is emotionally unstable. I think it sounds very normal. Screaming about her frustration is how she deals with it and lets the feeling out, then she feels better. She's still a bit young to express very strong emotion in a calm communication.

There are definitely some things you describe that could be inked to Anxiety, OCD, sensory issues or ASD (there are overlaps in the symptoms between all these things) like
1) Repeating phrases over and over unable to stop
2) Compulsion to touch skin
3) Sensitivity to noise and the position or feel of fabric on her body
4) Flinging her arms around in new situations or when possibly anxious
5) Pooing/toileting issues can be linked to sensory issues but it could be that she is constipated. This is a VERY common cause of soiled pants even at this age (my own daughter goes through this and the only thing that works is practically doubling how much she drinks in the day).

When she does something you don't like, does she just get told "No" or just "Stop" or does she have a clear understanding of why her behaviour is unacceptable.

It sounds like she is very bright in lots of ways and a keen experimenter, but sometimes children who have academic smart, imagination or technical ability are assumed to have matching emotional intelligence which actually they don't. So some of her behaviour could be down to boredom or experimentation but others could be that she really doesn't have very defined empathy yet or the ability to express what she's feeling.

 

[SmartieMeUp]

Thank you for a detailed reply!

Yes we tell her numerous times that her behaviour isn't always necessary and that she doesn't need to lash out, throw things, shout and scream all of the time when things don't go 'her way' and she should follow instruction when we ask her to do something, not stamp or cry. If we tell her not to do something she would persist to do it, despite being told not to. She can be sat on the sofa and DD2 would try talking to her or play in the same room and she would start screaming at DD2 that she should leave her alone/don't talk to her, for no apparent reason. Then persists to cry while screaming.

We've praised her good work be it drawing, walking far if she would normally complain, a story she made etc, we've taken interest in her new interests (roblox, singing - we all have a little sing off), when she helps tidy up on her own accord, we even buy treats for both. As soon as DD1 gets her treat, she would then begin to play up.

I said emotionally unstable mostly because the slightest 'issue' can bring her to tears or shout or a huge outburst. Last week I accidentally got both DDs dinner plates mixed up, they were eating and DD1 brought it up so I asked if she wanted to swap them over and she nodded then she tried to hold back the tears, but they came out as soon as the plates were swapped and she kicked up a stink because they swapped. She lays in mine and OH's bed during the day sometimes and would cry because DD2 was upstairs.

We initially thought ASD when she was younger, nursery were great with it and referred her to a specialist, but was too young to diagnose anything. Reception didn't think much of it or it was severe enough to be referred or be concerned over. She definitely isn't constipated as she can happily have a poo once or twice a day - sometimes in the toilet/odd time in her knickers.

Honestly, it depends on what she's doing like when she has an outburst at DD2, it will be "Ava, stop shouting at Olivia please" if she carries on she will say "I don't like it" proceeds and that is when a firmer "stop" is said. Other times it's "No, you don't ______ it's dangerous/very silly/not good"

Yeah, boredom sprung to mind and she just feels 'urged' to do anything to occupy herself, her brain needs something to focus on which is why she's taken to Roblox as it offers a variety of things to throw herself into.

 

[Canadiana]

I'm going to strongly disagree that all that sounds normal and I think it's slightly concerning that you think she's doing it all on purpose and that you don't want to check with her doctor. I would honestly print out your OP and give it to him because it's very detailed.

It could be that she is mainly just bright and difficult but not one of us has the education to be able to make that call.

I think you would be doing her a huge disservice to not have all of this checked into.

Good luck.

 

[LilFooshFoosh]

This sounds a lot like my son this past year- he's turning 8 this month and he has a 3.5 yo sister. We tried talking to him and explaining why his behavior was hurtful or unacceptable, we tried time outs and all of our usual tactics but nothing was working, in fact it seemed to get worse. We consistently have told the kids they need to use words to tell us what the matter is and have provided them with the proper vocabulary and understanding to be able to express themselves that way- instead of non-verbally. In our house we have rules that define "bad" behavior and make sure we choose our battles appropriately and provide outlets for "kid" behavior, as we expect kids will be kids and cannot be perfect 100% of the time. (For example, we have messy dinners where no one is expected to use their manners or cutlery).

We tried several things to improve his behavior, we basically had to overhaul our interactions with both kids and some was drastic, but I'm happy to say that something worked, because we have not seen a recurrence for several months.

> After many warnings, deadlines, missed goals/tasks and a thorough explanation of the consequences we would impose if he continued to choose unacceptable behavior, we took away all of his toys- which, as previously established, were earned back one by one through good behavior (it didn't need to be a fully good day, just an act). We had back and forth, he would earn a toy and then do something to have it taken away again, then earn it back, etc. This was the catalyst for him to change. He did not like it and made horrifying, animal noises (scared DH at one point, who was made to leave the room and mind DD) while he watched me calmly and silently collect his toys. (In the end, after being told he had earned back all the rest of his toys, he ended up agreeing that he had too many toys and didn't need them all- he picked his favourites and the rest went to charity. He is much happier now, as he no longer has issues keeping his room tidy- aside from his lego.)
> DH and I agreed to pick our battles; we decided what needed immediate attention, what we could live with and what we could fight another day.
> We drew up expectations together- what we expected of him and what he could expect from us; we also explained what we would and would not hold DD accountable for based on her age and abilities.
> DH and I worked extra hard to make sure we stuck to a pretty set schedule/routine.
> The kids are given turns to be in charge of making certain decisions (what to watch, which stories at bedtime, who bathed first, etc)- this has mostly, but not entirely, replaced our old system of trying to reach a compromise.
> Each kid was given their own set of chores instead of both working on the same set (1 helps set the table, 1 helps clear the table etc)
> DS was given additional chores that he could do to earn money (no pant pooping here, but he did try shoplifting a couple of small things- which we caught and made him put back)
> DS had to hold hands with a grown up whenever we were in a store (see comment above) and was told if the behavior continued we would have to warn his grandparents in case they took him to a store while in their care
> Thoroughly explained the consequences of continuing these behaviors into adulthood.
> We made extra effort to play family games or work on a craft together.
> We point out when the kids are getting one on one time with each parent (they were already getting this before, the change was that we now tell the kids it is happening, so they were aware of it, which makes it seem more special).

I think a BIG part of what was happening was that DS could see he and DD were not being treated the same AND, at the same time, DD was starting to have ideas/wants of her own (instead of always going along with what DS wanted). He was dealing with not getting his way all the time, getting in trouble more frequently (usually related to his interactions with DD) and feeling like we expected WAY more from him than from his sister. It was a difficult time and there was a lot going on.

We think we have emerged from the other side of it, we are definitely more aware of how everyone in the family interacts with one another and making sure that DS understands why we make certain decisions while still giving him the opportunity to have input when possible. He did not get out of having more responsibilities and expectations than his sister, but he understands that comes from growing up.

Sorry, that turned out to be really long. I hope at least some of it is helpful. For what it is worth, if his behavior had continued, we would have sought outside help.

 

[LilFooshFoosh]

also, just wanted to add, that we are the most familiar with what was happening in our house and these are the things we felt would work in our case. I'm not suggesting it is "one size fits all", I'm just tossing out ideas for the types of things we did in our holistic approach to addressing a complex issue.

 

[noon_child]

Yes we tell her numerous times that her behaviour isn't always necessary and that she doesn't need to lash out, throw things, shout and scream all of the time when things don't go 'her way' and she should follow instruction when we ask her to do something, not stamp or cry.

This is my personal view -you may not agree - but I don't think it's up to you to decide whether she "needs" to lash out or whether her behaviour is necessary or not. Felling feelings (even ones we adults think are over the top, selfish or down right dumb) is normal human experience. If you have asked her to do something (e.g a chore that is her responsibility) but she's wants to carry on drawing, I would expect that to feel very frustrating. Some children only feel slightly frustrated and grumble, some have a full on tantrum - either way they are expressing their feelings of frustration. Obviously if she is hurting people or breaking things she need alternative ways of expressing her feelings as that's not OK.

It sounds like you are truly exhausted as I assume this has been going on for a number of years. Exhaustion can lead to you shutting down emotionally (it does to me anyway) which makes it really hard to empathise. Everything seems designed to push your buttons rather than be a child expressing her hurt and confusion.

I think it could really help you to get some advise around strategies that work with children with ASD or sensory issues as if this is the case with your daughter her ability to cope with the world and express her emotion will be limited.

 

[morri]

One thing to remember that in case your daughter is autistic that some health professionals still have a "male " set of the condition. So if she doesnt appear to do the more typical boy autistic things maybe she can still be on the spectrum nevertheless.