MMR and autism: studies

[WantsALittle1]

EDIT ***Please read this entire post before you reply. I am not interested in what people think of those who choose to vaccinate or not vaccinate their kids. I am not interested in whether people think there is a link between the MMR and autism. I just want to talk about the design flaws of the two studies below specifically, design flaws that have led to these studies being discredited by the scientific community.***

No hate comments or picking of fights, please. I know this is a contentious subject, but I find these results very interesting and it really bothers me that sources like the AAP or CDC say that no studies have shown a link between the MMR and autism.

Studies have shown a connection between abnormal measles antibodies in the gut and autism. These two studies specifically mention that the gut response was due to the vaccine strain of measles.

This is my question. This is why I made the post....

Why aren't these studies discussed or even acknowledged by the AAP or CDC?

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02256592#page-1
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0887899402006276

 

[Belle25]

I used to worry about it, but honestly, the I think the dangers and risks of not having it are worse than having it.

The only time I'd be concerned is if my child had a compromised immune system.

Xx

 

[beth_terri]

One of the doctors that conducted one of the studies on a link between the injection and autism is no longer a doctor. He had his status removed and was struck off.

I haven't read the above but autism tends to become apparent in children at the age that the vaccine is given, not as a result of the vaccine.

I don't have links to back this up right now as I was my mums research for a huge project she was doing.

 

[special_kala]

The MMR protects kids from things that can be fatal and a utterly horrible experience for kids. To put it simply I wouldn't risk a fatal disease to avoid autism. I know some wonderful people with wonderful kids who are autistic

 

[WantsALittle1]

I'm familiar with the discredited Wakefield studies, but these are independent studies that would have nothing to do with parental detection of autism around the time of MMR administration. These studies sidestep those confounding issues.

These are DSM-diagnosed autism cases where an abnormal antibody reaction was found in the guts of autistic children.

 

[Pearls18]

This should probably be moved to the news/debates section.

My understanding was that there has been no link with autism, the fella who said there was has been struck off and is responsible for horrendous outbreaks due to frightening parents, there is a misconception of a link because autistic symptoms can show themselves around the time and not long after MMR is administered.

As Kala said I don't think autism is enough of a risk to not get the MMR especially when there is no conclusive evidence to even say this is the case. It's not something I waste my time thinking about tbh and see it as scaremongering (not you OP but the argument in general) now if there was concerns of links to forms of cancer for example, it would be a different matter.

 

[AP]

Post moved to a more appropriate section

 

[AP]

You know, we could point the blame at everything for autism.
I don't think it's enough to put me off. Alex's autism was likely more to do with her prematurity, brain development etc. I never believe this MMR stuff

 

[staralfur]

I'm not sure many people are going to be able to read these (beyond the abstract) without full access to the journals.

I will log into my university library account a bit later and do a proper read and come back with my thoughts...

But without actually reading them, I'll say that it's not the CDC/AAP/WHO/whoever's job to bring attention to every study that is published. It is their job to keep up-to-date on valid, significant research, and to make their recommendations based on what that research suggests.

Saying "there is a link between the MMR and autism" is a huge, HUGE claim, and just because a few studies may have found a correlation (again, I'd have to read the full article and take a look at methodology, etc. to assess if I think that's even the case), doesn't mean that there is causation.

Oh, and just based on the abstract, the first article is based on a teeny tiny sample size. That study would have to be replicated on a much larger scale for a big health organization to consider referencing it.

 

[LittleMinx]

As a mum to an amazing boy who has moderate-severe autism, I would rather he have autism than something far worse. But my honest view on the MMR/Autism link is that its all a load of toosh! I appreciate that to some its a big concern and we all have our rights to our own views. But if i had to make a choice between autism(and all the other things that come with it)and something potentially life threatening... Well its a no brainer to me.

 

[ellismum]

The MMR protects kids from things that can be fatal and a utterly horrible experience for kids. To put it simply I wouldn't risk a fatal disease to avoid autism. I know some wonderful people with wonderful kids who are autistic

Likewise. And also children with Autism who have not had the MMR.

 

[WantsALittle1]

staralfur, thank you. That's exactly what I was hoping for, reflection on these particular two studies, the science involved, and why they are ignored. I was hoping to avoid a debate over who is 'right' or 'wrong' about vaccination. Nobody is right. Nobody is wrong. My goal was really to discuss the scientific merit of these two papers.

I was trying to figure out why these major parent-influencing organizations (AAP, CDC, etc.) claim that no studies have shown a link when studies have indeed shown a link. Perhaps they didn't feel that these studies were conducted correctly, and I was hoping to discuss some of those reasons because they sure as heck don't discuss them!

You are right about the sample size. The other idea I had was the old causation doesn't imply correlation concept. Just because MMR and autism correlate in these two studies, that doesn't mean that MMR causes autism. It may mean, for instance, that individuals with autism have issues with the bowel that cause them to hold onto those antibodies long after the injection, for whatever reason. It's interesting that neither mumps nor rubella antibodies were found in the guts of the autistic children in the study, but maybe there is something about the measles strain used in the vaccine that doesn't 'flush out' of the gut. This latter idea is consistent with the finding that withdrawal of the MMR vaccine (large decline in vaccinated children in England) was not associated with overall reduction in autism cases. However, that finding still seems sorta hand-wavy to me

 

[feedindy]

Well this is just 1 doctor, and his study included only 125 children. It may be the other way around that autism may be responsible for the unusual response to the MMR antibodies. It's like which came first, the chicken or the egg.

The reason why the AAP and CDC don't reference it is because it has been widely criticized. It's a small study, not credible.

Don't even bother reading anything unless the AAP, CDC, or WHO stand behind it.

 

[Bevziibubble]

There have been so many studies linking different things to autism. I guess you can find a link with anything if you look hard enough, but honestly I think that the benefits of the MMR far outweigh the risks. My brother is autistic and my mum knew from an early age that something was 'not quite right' but doctors kept making out she was just a paranoid parent and it was all in her head. He got diagnosed years later. Most symptoms of autism don't become really apparent until around two years of age in many babies, which is after the MMR is given, so I can see why people would make the link, but there are many many children who have had the MMR and are totally fine, and on the other hand there will be children with autism who haven't had the MMR.

 

[Rachel_C]

I think just showing a link isn't enough. If it was only going to be read by people who can understand how studies are written and what things really mean and who can properly start to think about whether the conclusion drawn by the authors is really supported by data etc, then perhaps health authorities could give everybody a full list of any study ever done about MMR and autism. It would be a very long list, with some valid studies with useful results but many many more completely useless pieces of 'research'.

The sad fact is, though, that many people can't or won't read things properly and don't know how to interpret what they do read, leaving them wide open to whatever the author (or the media!) wants them to believe. I don't believe in a crazy nanny state but I do think organisations like the WHO have a responsibility to protect some people from themselves. I think this includes NOT publicising details of studies like those mentioned until they are backed up properly or shown to be meaningless. If the WHO or any government body publicised those studies, the media would follow that with "WHO accepts link between MMR and abnormality/Autism". No mention of the fact that causality hasn't been established and that it wasn't even in the scope of the study just "LINK LINK LINK" and nobody would get the MMR. Whether you agree with the MMR or not, an uninformed decision is never the right one so that would not be a good result for either 'side'.

So basically, I do think the WHO and governments should give us links to studies that mean something (or lots of smaller studies that mean something when combined) but until that is the case I think they are right to say there are no studies proving links because those small studies are not proof, not even close.

 

[Tiff]

I personally don't believe in the MMR link either. Even though I didn't understand it at the time, Claire showed signs of having Autism very young... well before she got the MMR. We also did a delayed vax schedule with her so she didn't have her MMR until she was closer to 2 years old.

She was demonstrating the sensitivity to sound, lining up objects, stimming, abnormal play well before that.

But even in those articles, it says that the vaccines may play a "casual" role (measles antibodies) and "might" lead to Autism (from the first link). That's not very conclusive, and could be a reason as to why its not being picked up on.

 

[JASMAK]

My daughter showed signs of autism very early, since birth. MMR did notcause autism. What did, I do not know. But, she had autism since birth. She was receiving help at 12 mths, and diagnosed at 2 yrs 10 mths. I will continue to vaccinate all my children.

 

[bumpy_j]

Can't a severe illness such as measles trigger autistic behaviour that's already dormant though? My belief is that if there ever was a solidly proven link (which hasn't really manifested itself yet - not to many peoples standards), it wouldn't be the cause, simply because there isn't a true 'cause' of Autism. Maybe it could possibly be one day proven as a trigger, but surely dormant autism will nearly always eventually surface? I mean, perhaps I'm wrong but is there anything out there that has been finitely proven to cause Autism aside from hereditary factors?

 

[JASMAK]

Can't a severe illness such as measles trigger autistic behaviour that's already dormant though? My belief is that if there ever was a solidly proven link (which hasn't really manifested itself yet - not to many peoples standards), it wouldn't be the cause, simply because there isn't a true 'cause' of Autism. Maybe it could possibly be one day proven as a trigger, but surely dormant autism will nearly always eventually surface? I mean, perhaps I'm wrong but is there anything out there that has been finitely proven to cause Autism aside from hereditary factors?

Well, its a broad question. Did you know there are FIVE types of autism, and another that technically isnt autism, but causes autism? Retts, Disintigrative, PDD-Nos, Autistic Disorder, and Aspergers....and then there is Fragile X. These are vastly different diseases and some require lifelong care, and some are functioning, and some are both. I think first, narrowing down the TYPE of autism would help. I help by lending my child, or sometimes children (as sometimes they want children with and children without autism) for studies. My older two just did a study last month. I think it is more complicated than just a syringe with stuff in it. Personally, for e type of autism my daughter has (PDD-NOS), I think it was from a combo of things. Extreme stress during pregnancy, lack of oxygen at birth, mixed with either an illness she had at 6 days old, or an illness I had during pregnancy. I personally dont think it will be the same for everyone. And some autisms have different causes.

 

[WantsALittle1]

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I do think they've shown a pretty conclusive increase in autism with conditions that cause decreased blood flow/flow of nutrients/oxygen during gestation and birth? I think there can be a genetic predisposition to it that, in the absence of environmental triggers, never gets expressed. In other cases, the environmental triggers (fever during first tri, oxygen deprivation during birth, pollution exposure during pregnancy) seem to activate the genes.

I know two kiddos on the spectrum and in both cases, there was oxygen deprivation during birth. Their siblings do not show signs of a spectrum disorder, but one of the parents exhibits spectrum-like behavior in each case that was passed with severity to the children with birth trauma but not to the children without. I think it's interesting. In one case, the child was entangled and had to be delivered via EMCS after minutes of intermittent heart decels. In the other case, the back of the baby's head was up against the cervix (rather than the crown of the head) and the baby wasn't moving and had decels too, had to be delivered via EMCS.