Need advice from you ladies

[arturia]

Hello ladies,

So I am in the midst of a complicated situation and I don't feel I can share with local friends without getting biased responses. I hope you folks here can help me get an outsider's perspective.

My dh and I have been together as a couple about 4 1/2 years, and today is our first wedding anniversary. I'm 30 and he is 32.

Around the beginning of March, I went off my birth control in the hopes that we would soon become parents. I am still not pregnant, but we haven't exactly been -trying- very seriously. For the time that I have been off birth control, we'd only have sex maybe once during my fertile period, for reasons that follow.

Over the past couple months, my husband hasn't come out and said it clearly, but he has made reference to the fact that he does not want to be a parent. And last weekend, he told me outright. His reasons? His life goals involve having things instead of family. (disclaimer: I am not judging him for this, as it is true for him.) He had only wanted to have children at all because he thought it would make me happy and that he would lose me if he didn't. He stated his wish to have a small house with me with a garden and extra space to keep his small creative projects.

I believe his lack of interest in sex during my fertile period was a desire to try not to get me pregnant. And before you all judge me on getting married to him, he claimed before we were engaged and married that a family was one of his goals.

What about me? Well, I'm uncertain. Over the weekend we tried to discuss possible compromise. What could he provide me to replace my dream of parenthood? What I came up with is mainly some career based goals that I had abandoned early on and some of which aren't still achievable, and travel.

When we started dating, I recall wondering if I should leave him to pursue a dream of getting a PhD, possible because I wasn't tied to any huge debt except my student loan, and which I wouldn't be required to pay until I was finished school. Now I have a car and a mortgage so abandoning my job for that is no longer possible. Secondly, I wanted to become a game programmer, but abandoned that because the industry is hard to get into and requires long hours. And that kind of environment certainly isn't mom-friendly. Being a normal software developer is fine, as I've never been regularly asked to work too-long hours, and working from home sometimes is possible. Travel is a side goal I abandoned largely because hotels result in a steady stream of complaints from dh; he never seems happy about it, and if my time is going to be ruined by his time being ruined, why bother spending all the money?

On that thread, he complains a LOT. It has resulted in our relationship being far more difficult than it could be, and a lot of his friends not wanting to be around him either. Even when he's having a good time, you'd never know it because most of what comes out of his mouth is complaints. I've confronted him about this, and all he says is that most people don't feel a need to discuss the positive. (Is this really true? Seriously?)

In any case, starting a family isn't something I've always put a lot of thought into. I recall thinking it was something I wanted, but wasn't a specific goal, before I started dating my husband. At the time I was single, and probably believed I was too damaged for form a successful and happy relationship with someone in time to have a child. After starting with him, as each big goal appeared and fell away, starting a family was the one that remained behind. I chose to marry him in large part to fulfill this goal, and now I'm finding that he doesn't want that with me. Now what?

Over the weekend, after much discussion, I told him I would stay with him and not become a mom ever. His reaction was one of guilt that he felt he was taking my dream away. I expected him to be really happy and his reaction was deflating, to say the least. After that, I just feel a sense of regret and sadness and like I probably made the wrong choice. Nobody is happy.

tl;dr: I largely feel I married Mr. Good Enough in order to have kids someday. He changed his mind about that after the wedding bells tolled, should we get divorced?

I'd appreciate any advice you guys have to share for me.

EDIT: I feel as if I glossed over ANY positives for staying with this man. They are there. We do have fun together on the rare occasion we are able to hang out without him getting frustrated with whatever activity we chose to do, we have a ton of similar interests, and he said I'm the only girl he's ever met who shares his interest in computer technology. Yeah, that means I'll sit down and construct computers with him and deconstruct random pieces of hardware, and even help him vacuum up all the screws. Plus I get what he's going on about when he goes on about work, as he works the hardware side of IT.

EDIT 2: Another thing to consider is that while I feel he's my Mr. Good Enough, he feels I'm his Mrs. Right, except for this issue, so it's hard for me to break his heart by leaving.

 

[tinymumma]

Oh sweetie. I wish I could give you the biggest hug right now xx This must be so tough.
I'll admit, mine and hubbys relationship is rocky at best (what with our own mental health issues) but ours was built on the fact we both wanted a family. I couldn't imagine being in your position.
You've mentioned you're very anolitacle, so maybe it's time to weigh up the pros and cons. As much as I believe in fate and the Universe, I honestly don't believe there is a Mr. Perfect (no one is perfect). It all comes down to how this person make you feel and whether it's worth sticking around through the bad times. I think you need to do some soul searching and find out what life goals you have that your not willing to give up. You should never squash your dreams in order to please someone else. When it comes to a family in what you've told us about your relationship, it's certainly not easy. If you don't have a baby, you will probably end up resenting him. Also vice versa if you do have children.

I know your hubby is going through a lot right now but I understand what you mean about that fact you wouldn't be able to believe him if he changed his mind. It's also very difficult for you, trying to break down the barriers, as well as support and encourage when your partner is dealing with their own things. My hubby is also very negative, the world sucks, kind of person. His is due to childhood trauma and basically screwing his adult life because he was never equipped with the skills to be a responsible, functioning adult. I always try and remind myself there is always a reason for people's actions, as unfair or silly as they seem. One mistake I've made is making excuses for my partner and he's fallen into a trap of not changing because I've given him the excuses to show him I care and understand.

Everyone changes, all the time, we're constantly changing as we grow and learn. Weigh up the pros and cons love. Find out what it is that you truly want, deep down, without outside influences. Then sit down and speak to your hubby. Lay it all out for him and be honest. Of course he shouldn't do major things just to make you happy and having a child certainly doesn't fix relationships as it breaks many.

You know him and yourself best. You both deserve to be happy and with his outlook on life (doom and gloom, everything sucks), he obviously isn't happy. That's not your fault as its up to him.

Maybe you could look into couples counselling? They do an array of sessions both one on one and together. A lot of the time, it's very insightful and can be a great help in deciding whether it's worth trudging through that tunnel to reach the light at the end.

I don't really know what I'm trying to say in all of this and I wish I could give you some actual advice. I just want you to know, we're all here for you ❤️ Whatever you decide, listen to your heart, your gut and stay true to yourself xxx Lots of love to you gorgeous xxx I hope you find peace

 

[Kaiecee]

When it comes to kids I think you shouldn't give up something that important because you will end up hating him in the end for making you do that.

It's your decision I'm behind whatever you choose since this is a very big decision
Xx

 

[MissYogi]

My heart is breaking for you trying to make this challenging decision. Honestly, like tiny said earlier, I don't think I could give you any advice that would change a lot for you, because you are the expert in your own life. I do know, however, that if it was me in your shoes I wouldn't be able to stay with someone if my dream of having a family couldn't be fulfilled. I would be really weighing the pros and cons, how much I love this man vs. how much I want to have kids, how much I enjoy the good times with him vs. how tough the bad times are, etc. Because you own your home together this is slightly more challenging of course but I think there are definitely ways that you could work that out and if you decide that he really is not who you want to be with then it will be much better for you in the long run to deal with it now, rather than in a few years when you are too unhappy. On the other hand, maybe you decide that you do want to try to make it work with counselling sessions and then maybe it is worth waiting a few years to decide.

I know that is terrible advice (actually it wasn't advice at all) but the best thing I can say right now is that we are here for you and will be here to listen no matter what decision you make.

 

[CaliDreaming]

This is such a tough position to be in and no right or wrong answers I don't think. You will really have to do some soul searching on this one. You do seem to love this man and he seems to love you as well if he is willing to have a child with you just to make you happy. Couples counselling is an excellent suggestion.

One problem I see though is the desire for a child is a biological thing and that desire is not going to go away. It's only going to intensify as you get older and your clock starts ticking. It also sounds like your hubby really deep down does not want a child and I would be worried about whether he'd be up to the demands of fatherhood.

The worst case scenario would be that you have a child with him and then you end up divorcing. Having a child changes a relationship in the most profound way. It's not like getting a puppy you can put in a room somewhere if it's getting on your nerves. Children put strains even on good relationship where both partners want the child. Children take all of you--all your money, all your time.

If having a child is your prime consideration, it would be best to find someone who shares your same desires now, but that is easier said that done. Who knows? Maybe your hubby may work through whatever issues he has that makes him not want children.

Ugh, I hate that you're in this situation.

 

[arturia]

Cali-He is unlikely to change his tune. His reasoning for not wanting kids is that he wants me to himself. Just doesn't want a third. And a child would interfere with his goals. I mean, so would divorce, but whatever his reasons, he doesn't want them.

 

[Kaiecee]

Sorry but that seems to be a controlling thing and that's not very healthy

 

[arturia]

Kaicee - You lost me. Can you explain what you mean by controlling?

 

[Kaiecee]

If someone doesn't want kids because he wants you all to himself it's a bit controlling,
But it's your life and if your ready thinking about not being with him you already have your reasons, to me it would be so sad not to of had kids and no one should refuse you of that especially when the goal before marriage was to have a family it seems a bit weird

 

[Kaiecee]

But I want you to know I'm here for you if you need and I don't want you to think I'm judging I just would want anyone in this situation happy

 

[CaliDreaming]

Sorry but that seems to be a controlling thing and that's not very healthy

Sadly I think Kaiecee has hit the nail on the head. I was trying to give him the benefit of a doubt, but from your further response it sounds like he knew all along that he was never going to want children and intentionally deceived you, knowing that it would be hard to leave once you married. That is textbook controlling.

You also said that you want to travel and earn a phd, but it seems like your hubby is holding you back from doing all these things. Again, controlling.

Another thing that worries me is when you said you "probably believed I was too damaged for form a successful and happy relationship with someone in time to have a child." Sounds like you have suffered from low self esteem for a while, but now you are wanting to free yourself.

You deserve so much better. There are so many guys who would love you and share your dream of a family.

 

[Amygdala]

I think you've kind of answered your own question. Even the BIG issue of whether or not you have a family aside, it doesn't sound like your life is better with him in it. On the contrary, it sounds like he brings you down a lot. And I agree with others that "changing your mind" about something as big as whether or not you want a family after you get married to someone is pretty bad. I use quotation marks because it doesn't really sound like he did change his mind, more like he lied before to get you to commit. Only you can decide what to do. But decide now, while you're young. If you leave now, you easily have time to meet someone else and still start a family down the line. In a few years, that'll become much harder. So listen to your gut instinct and do what's right for you (not him or anyone else!). If nothing else, you deserve Mr Right, not just Mr Good Enough. Best of luck to you!

 

[arturia]

Judging by his comments he didn't do it on purpose, he just never took the time to do any deep thinking about it. It's just difficult to express precisely the emotions bouncing back and forth between the two of us. I won't disagree that he may be controlling but not sure if even he realizes it.

 

[MindUtopia]

There will always be rocky patches in relationships and you won't necessarily always enjoy the same things, but ultimately, a good relationship is one where both of you are growing, both of you are supported to achieve your goals, and both of you are on a relatively similar path and can see yourselves in the same place, 10, 20, 40 years down the line. If one of you is always giving things up or letting things slide away so that the other can have what they want and you can find little common ground on life goals that matter to both of you, then you need to take some time, probably with a marriage counselor, and try to find out if there is a way both of you can be on the same path and heading for the same place. That's not just to do with children, but also with career goals. You both have to be supporting each other to be where you want to be in your career, not just only one of you. And you both have to find satisfaction from the path you're heading on together in life.

It's different maybe because I find pretty much no joy in material things and nor does my husband (probably why we are such a good match). We don't own a house. We have really old, crappy cars. We literally have enough clothes between us for 5 days without needing to wash because we run out. Instead, we spent our time and money before we had our daughter traveling and building our careers, things that we both cared about and wanted to do together. We've always had very clear career dreams - his to start his own business and me to get a PhD and have an academic research career. I've supported him (taking on the bulk of parenting duties when he needed to work day and night to start up our business, given up weekends to work and brought our daughter along, missed fun things I would have wanted to do because he was traveling for work, etc.), but he's also supported me (taking time off or taking over all the parenting when I'm away at a conference, taking on more than his fair share of the financial burdens when I've not make much money as a doctoral student, taken our daughter away for the weekend when I had a pressing writing deadline, etc.). And we see ourselves in the same place in 10, 20, 30, whatever years. Our goals and dreams and needs are pretty much aligned. I don't think you have to be carbon copies of each other, but your dreams and needs have to be complementary for a marriage to work. That means one of you has to give sometimes so the other can pursue their needs and vice versa.

But I do think becoming parents is something you both need to be 100% on board with or it will fracture your relationship into a million pieces. Parenting is super, super hard. It's the hardest thing I've ever had to do in my relationship and my husband and I are like totally on board and pretty much agree with each other about everything, so there's no conflict. It's just overwhelming and exhausting and intense some days. If he's changed his tune, I would try to get at why and what's really going on. I do actually sort of agree with the PP that he sounds controlling. To say he doesn't want to share you with someone else sends up a red flag for me. This is exactly to the letter what my dad said to my mum when I was born. He had wanted to have a child with her (I think? at least he did so willingly and not under duress). But as soon as I was born he was very angry and resentful that he was no longer the center of attention. He wanted her all to himself and not to have to share her with someone else demanding and high needs (as all babies are). They didn't divorce until I was 8, but their relationship was pretty much over shortly after I was born. He could just never adjust to life as three instead of being the man of the house who got to dictate everything, say what they would and wouldn't do, where they would and wouldn't travel, what they would and wouldn't have for dinner and what time. He in fact was very controlling, but not just because he resented having to share the spotlight with a baby, for much bigger reasons. That doesn't mean your husband is, overall, controlling, but the aspect of not wanting to share a partner with a child does sound controlling. I don't feel like I share my husband with my daughter. We have our relationship and then she is this other whole new aspect to it. But it does cut down on things we do together and time we have for each other, so in that sense we do. I don't have an answer for you, but basically I guess just to say you have to be on the same page and going the same place in your marriage. You don't have to be exactly the same. But you have to want the same things and be growing the same direction. If talking it over yourselves isn't helping you feel any more sure of what to do, seek out a marriage counselor. We had to do some fairly detailed relationship counseling in order to get married that basically talked about all of this stuff and it was really helpful and enlightening.

 

[CaliDreaming]

Arturia, you have lost yourself in this relationship and you really don't sound happy. Your marriage appears to be very one-sided. I don't see that your husband has made any of the sacrifices that you have made to make this relationship work. All he cares about are *his* goals, the type of house *he* wants and that *he* doesn't want to share you with anyone or anything.

Everything about him you have posted shows him to be an extremely selfish person. The "positives" you have posted about him don't seem like it would justify what you've given up--and you have given up a lot, don't kid yourself. There are tons of single guys our there with those same interests. You say he considers you "Mrs. Right", but would he still be saying that if you hadn't been willing to accommodate all of his selfish desires? Does he really love the "real" you?

It's your choice whether to stay or to leave, but if your marriage is going to work long-term, you are going to have to stand up for yourself and stop making excuses for your hubby. But your hubby does not seem willing to change so...

I'm also calling BS on his explanation about his change of heart on the issue. It really doesn't make sense that a 30-year-old would not have thought seriously about the issue of whether or not to have children before getting married. He clearly thought about it since he said he thought he'd leave you if he didn't want children. He also must have known how you felt on the issue in your conversations with him.

I hate to come off as overly harsh and I'm not lightly throwing around the "divorce" card, but I am nearly 42 years old and I have BTDT in a similarly one-sided relationship in my youth where I also settled for Mr. Good Enough. I also had low self esteem. In my case, it took 12 years before I built up the nerve to call it quits forever at age 33, and yes, I regret that I wasted my youth on that guy. I now have a fabulous life with the family I wanted and it never would have happened if I hadn't broken the cycle. But I'm also in the unenviable position that I am now in my early 40s and still trying to complete my family. And I kick myself sometimes because it was completely avoidable.

I think at 30 you are at an age where you are coming into own and growing in confidence. I can tell you know in head that you're not being treated right, but your heart won't let you let go. How are you going to feel if you get to be my age and you're still in the same place you're in now? The years are going to start flying so this is something you need to address now.

 

[~curiosity~]

Arturia I really feel for you I'm sorry you've had all this thrown at you now, some will never understand the desire to be a mother.

I'm not going to tell you what to do as I'm sure you're doing a lot of soul searching right now and there is probably no 'right' answer. I would just say be careful when it comes to giving up your dreams, this is a huge decision and not one to take lightly. With anything big I try to imagine myself as an old lady and what I would want to look back on and have achieved at the end of it all. If you honestly feel you will be able to be happy without a family then now is the time to start planning the life you want. If not then how long will you be able to deal with not TTC?

I agree with Tiny that maybe couple's counselling might be the place to start. I think, judging by the sound of your husband that he is still in turmoil and has not yet made his decisions either. Perhaps counselling will help you both put things in to perspective.

here for you hunnie xxx

 

[OhHappyZ]

Arturia. I am just floored. I am so proud of you for opening up to us, it means a lot that you value our opinion. I was in a similar situation when I was younger, luckily we weren't married and didn't have any shared possessions.

He seems to get a lot out of this relationship:
He has the stability of having you.
He has the ability to own a house, whereas without you it probably wouldn't be possible.
He has an ear to complain to non-stop, even when his friends don't want to listen.
He has the freedom to do his activities he enjoys, without you disrupting him.
He has a beautiful woman to go to bed with when he wishes.
He is in a relationship where what he says goes, and no one is permitted to disrupt that.

I'm sure there is more, but these are what I have gleaned from what you have told us.

Now, you need to ask yourself, what do you get from this relationship? Be selfish. The purpose of a relationship is to achieve what you otherwise couldn't have alone. You are there to build each other up, so help each other. To hold each other up in times of need. You should compliment each other, make the other better just by being you.

To me, it sounds like this relationship is doing nothing to better you. That you are basically having to mother this man, and it sounds to me like he tricked you into staying. That is not fair. As Kaiecee mentioned, he sounds controlling. He wants to be in charge, but isn't man enough to understand that relationships are about compromise.

Compromise, Communication, and Compassion. That is the foundation of a good relationship. A relationship that will help build you up to a better version of you. A relationship where, even if there are rocky times, those all fade away because the good times always overwhelm them.

If I were you, I would write out what you want to say, maybe bullet points (lord knows my memory wouldn't be good enough to remember every detail, so I typically make lists) of the issues you feel strongly about. Tell him about the basic rules of a relationship, and with each bullet point, ask him if he feels that he has compromised? Communicated? Been Compassionate? If all of his answers are no, Maybe it will shine a light on the issue, and maybe he will understand that he has only been taking without giving in this relationship, which is a road to failure. Ask him if he would like this relationship to continue. If he does, then he should be willing to put forth the effort. If not, tell him that you should both start taking steps to dissolve the relationship, as it will only lead to failure anyhow.

A relationship takes work. It doesn't just happen. It takes effort. The more you give to your relationship, the better it will be. But if only one person is giving, why would they continue if they get nothing in return?

Sorry if I got a little businessy, but a relationship basically is a business. It either makes money or it goes bankrupt. The more effort and passion you put into your business and customers, the more money it will make, and the more money you will make. But if you are in a partnership and the other person is never there, and never puts effort into the business, yet takes the biggest paycheck, maybe even taking more money than there is business, it will eventually fail.

As an outsider, I see you as being very level headed and taking this as a clear issue that needs to be handled. You obviously are very passionate about having a family, otherwise you wouldn't be on this forum, and wouldn't be asking for our advice. To me, that was one of the major checklist items for finding a mate (again, I love lists).

Please keep us up to date. I have you in my heart and I hope you are able to work this out one way or another.

 

[LondonH]

I can relate to your story quite a bit and I am so sorry that you are going through this.

I had a therapist tell me about 7 years ago that I had dependency issues. I realized that I had been surrounded by family members with dysfunctional relationships my whole life and somehow love became an all-consuming sacrifice. Loving someone meant giving up on all of my career goals in order to support them. I made a thousand rational excuses why the things I was passionate about (art, teaching) were unreasonable. I was insecure and had low self esteem and gave up on a lot of things because my husband's job made more money and was more important than mine. I wonder if you might relate to this. All of the things you are giving up, like your career goals and traveling, are things that are essential to your well-being. I would think deeply about these things and question if you might be standing in your own way. Can you plan some time to travel on your own? I love traveling by myself. Are your educational/career goals really that unreasonable? Maybe a PhD isn't in the cards... but what about getting tickets to a conference in your field? Or taking an online workshop to learn something new? I truly believe that the more we love and value ourselves, the more we show the rest of the world that we are lovable and valuable.

If you are used to putting the things you need to be happy aside for your husband, he will come to expect that. You are setting the expectation that your happiness comes second. It has taken me a decade to learn how to ask for what I want and need. Even then, I often feel guilty if I do something that makes me happy but is more difficult for the two of us. I urge you to start doing some soul searching and ask for the things that you need for yourself. He might be resistant at first, but if he really loves you, your happiness should be essential to him as well. A partnership is about walking side by side, being teammates and rooting for each other to succeed. There are many components to a happy life. A happy relationship, career enjoyment, goal fulfillment, travel, and having children. I don't think we have to have all of them (though a few people somehow find a way to have all of them!) I do think you should evaluate which are essential to you right now and which are essential to you for the future. If you can take some steps to do what you need to be happy right now, it will let him know that he needs to pay more attention to this.

There has been a lot of good advice written already. I think a relationship is about playing on the same team. Actively putting yourselves on the line for your individual goals and pursuits. Failing and succeeding, and having each others backs when it gets tough. The second you become a cheerleader, you take yourself out of the game that determines the outcome of your life. I wish you lots of luck and courage!

 

[arturia]

Update for you ladies. For the time being, we aren't getting a divorce immediately.

 

[CaliDreaming]

Hope you two get things sorted out for the better.