Science and Philosophy Club Rules OK!

[tasha41]

I believe in the Big Bang, evolution, I believe climate change is a natural process but that our actions as humans have accelerated it dramatically...

I do believe that there is a higher power though, so many things that are exist out of pure chance... like what are the chances everything would come together "just so" and create the planet we live on? So I guess you could say I believe in science but I believe things have been "guided" by God.

I went to Catholic school my entire life, and we didn't learn about evolution really OR creationism.. they didn't really touch either with a 10 foot pole In religion class we learned the creation story of course but I remember teachers telling us not to read the Bible "literally", but to go beyond what the text is saying outright to you and find the meaning.. hopefully that makes sense! But in science class I don't ever remember learning about evolution.

About the Gaia Hypothesis... I've read about it, but I'm not well read enough on it to form an opinion just yet

 

[moomin_troll]

id love to have a faith although i do have to say even tho i believe mainly in science i do think theres something out there.

we cant be the only planet with life, i think its pig headed to think so.( dont mean to offend by that comment)

i also kind of believe in ghosts lol

 

[cillybean83]

I'm the odd one out on this! I believe 100% in creationism. I believe the world was created in 7 days just like the Bible says. I truly believe the Bible is the word of God and that every word in the Bible is true. I'm a born again christian.

 

[moomin_troll]

it would be nice like ive said to have utter faith but how can the bible be the word of god thru n thru if it was written by man?

 

[redpoppy]

To throw a different opinion in here, I believe in creation, i.e. the literal account in Genesis. I have a degree in science, and I personally find that science fits in perfectly with creationism. It all depends on how you interpret the evidence. In my opinion, if you choose to reject one part of the Bible then you cannot claim that the rest of it is true.

I would find this really interesting if you care to explain as I do find the LITERAL (as opposed to symbolic, metaphorical, spiritual, metaphysical or mystical) interpretation of the bible to be at loggerheads with science, but this could be because I feel many religious people, including Christians, attribute certain things to their own religion which aren't actually there sometimes?

I personally believe in the big bang as a fact (well a 99.9999999% most likely scenario at least, so far) and I also believe in evolution (although, if i'm honest, when I see those insects that LOOK exactly like leaves, i'm like COME ON!!!! NO matter how benficial it would be for the human race to look like a ... a... I dunno, like a rubber plant, I just SIMPLY do not understand HOW any creature evolves to look like that!!!! maybe the geneticists can give me a hand here!!!!)

But I also believe in God. Like truly, madly and deeply and believe in a spiritual or mystical ... facet to life which can be experienced by MANY many individuals (those inclined to be attuned and perhaps those open to be attuned) which for the MOST or perhaps even WHOLE part cannot be scientifically recorded or tested.

I KNOW the above paragraph may make me sound like a nutter to some and I don't expect people to take me seriously or believe my own experiences (which I'm not super cagey about but wouldn't want to share over the internet and aren't so amazing that would warrant some type of mass hysteria even if I were to be believed anyway) and so I think everyone has their own experiences and their reality is formed by them.

The thing is, that although I believe that all paths to God (within certain parameters) are valid and important in an essential way, I'm much more likely (probably due to the socio-political landscape being as it is in the world today) to think badly of someone (sorry!!!!) if they tell me they don't believe in science than if they tell me they don't believe in any spiritual/religious reality/path etc.

I suppose it could be because I think people who are atheists are for the most part sincere people who are trying to find the truth for themselves and too many religious people look to other people for spiritual or religious guidance and superiority.

And despite thinking all people have the right to believe what they will so long as it doesn't harm another, there's nothing that QUITE gets my goat than religious figure heads telling other people what is holy and what is good and what is right. We all have a conscience and if we are from societies that are literate, we can read and so its up to the individual to decide.

I suppose I consider myself religious but to be honest, most religious people send me a little crazy.

Oh, an for the record, I don't think God is human or that humans are relfections of God, I think God is either the universe, OR the mathematical nature/order of the universe OR God is reflected in the universe. I know I don't know anything at the end of the day and wish all people, even those who believe so deeply could say the same without feeling any form of betrayal or lack of morality in doing so.

Yeah.... so that's what i think.

 

[PeanutBean]

moomin-troll, your opinions sound very similar to mine.

tasha41, it's interesting you don't recall learning about evolution when you were at school, maybe the lessons just didn't stick in your mind? Though I think it's taught more overtly now because of the creationism thing whereas it was probably taught more incidentally before. I feel torn about the other life out there thing. Part of me listens to the stats and thinks nah, we're just an amazing anomoly, but then part of me thinks it's just hugely egotistical to think we are the only life forms in this enormous universe. I think it could be that we have to base our scientific reasoning and understanding on what we can observe about our own world and thought the true laws of physics should apply universally this way of learning limits us to our own experience. If that makes sense...

cillybean, thanks for your reply. What makes you believe the bible so implicitly?

 

[moomin_troll]

the world is a weird n wonderful place and we will never no whats really going on till we die, then we will no if heaven n earth are real ect.

yeah peanut we do seem to have similar thoughts on this matter

 

[PeanutBean]

On the Gaia thing, I studied it at some point in my degree and it's since left my head so I've jsut rea about it on wikipedia and it's late so my head is very fuzzy! lol But this stands out:

This theory is based on the idea that the biomass self-regulates the conditions on the planet to make its physical environment (in particular temperature and chemistry of the atmosphere) on the planet more hospitable to the species which constitute its "life".

It sounds to me like the theory is being used to explain the process that makes things as they are as opposed to seeing the way things are as a product of the past. Do you see what I mean? In that sense I don't thin I do agree. It seems rather to put life at the centre of the world and though life is certainly responsible for the environment it lives in now I don't feel it is a 'conscious' action as this theory seems to imply. I think that life is evolving to survive in the environment as it changes it and so the two naturally marry without it being a sort of design. Gosh, I'm not sure my words make any sense!

 

[Sarahkka]

For those who aren't familiar with it, the Gaia Hypothesis is the idea that the earth is a living organism (ancient Greek goddess "Gaia")
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_hypothesis
From Wikipedia:
The Gaia hypothesis is an ecological hypothesis proposing that the biosphere and the physical components of the Earth (atmosphere, cryosphere, hydrosphere and lithosphere) are closely integrated to form a complex interacting system that maintains the climatic and biogeochemical conditions on Earth in a preferred homeostasis. Originally proposed by James Lovelock as the earth feedback hypothesis,[1] it was named—at the suggestion of his neighbor William Golding—the Gaia Hypothesis, after the Greek supreme goddess of Earth.[2] The hypothesis is frequently described as viewing the Earth as a single organism. Lovelock and other supporters of the idea now regard it as a scientific theory, not merely a hypothesis, since they believe it has passed predictive tests.[3]

Lovelock is pretty grim on the future of our species. Again, from Wikipedia:

The Revenge of Gaia

In James Lovelock's 2006 book, The Revenge of Gaia, he argues that the lack of respect humans have had for Gaia, through the damage done to rainforests and the reduction in planetary biodiversity, is testing Gaia's capacity to minimize the effects of the addition of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. This eliminates the planet's negative feedbacks and increases the likelihood of homeostatic positive feedback potential associated with runaway global warming. Similarly the warming of the oceans is extending the oceanic thermocline layer of tropical oceans into the Arctic and Antarctic waters, preventing the rise of oceanic nutrients into the surface waters and eliminating the algal blooms of phytoplankton on which oceanic foodchains depend. As phytoplankton and forests are the main ways in which Gaia draws down greenhouse gases, particularly carbon dioxide, taking it out of the atmosphere, the elimination of this environmental buffering will see, according to Lovelock, most of the earth becoming uninhabitable for humans and other life-forms by the middle of this century, with a massive extension of tropical deserts.
Given these conditions, Lovelock expects human civilization will be hard pressed to survive. He expects the change to be similar to the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum when atmospheric concentration of CO2 was 450 ppm. At that point the Arctic Ocean was 23 °C and had crocodiles in it, with the rest of the world mostly scrub and desert. He says of sustainable development and renewable energy that it came "200 years too late" and that more effort should go into adaptation, including more use of fission. He likens the Kyoto Protocol to the Munich conferences that failed to prevent World War II, including the likelihood that the disaster will cause people to come together in common cause. "We have been through no less than seven of these events as humans...comparable in extent to the change" likely to be wrought by global warming.
He claims that Gaia's self-regulation will likely prevent any extraordinary runaway effects that wipe out life itself, but that humans will survive and be "culled and, I hope, refined."
According to James Lovelock, by 2040, the world population of more than six billion will have been culled by floods, drought and famine. The people of Southern Europe, as well as South-East Asia, will be fighting their way into countries such as Canada, Australia and Britain:[33]
By 2040, parts of the Sahara desert will have moved into middle Europe. We are talking about Paris - as far north as Berlin. In Britain we will escape because of our oceanic position." Lovelock believes it is too late to repair the damage. "If you take the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change predictions, then by 2040 every summer in Europe will be as hot as it was in 2003 - between 110F and 120F. It is not the death of people that is the main problem, it is the fact that the plants can't grow — there will be almost no food grown in Europe. We are about to take an evolutionary step and my hope is that the species will emerge stronger. It would be hubris to think humans as they now are God's chosen race.

 

[AppleBlossom]

Personally I believe in evolution and the big bang theory as I don't believe in a God of any religion. I once made the mistake of talking about evolution and Charles Darwin etc with my nan who is very religious, goes to church 3 times a week and is a sunday school teacher. I just couldn't get my head around what she was saying especially "Well in the bible it says.." I did Philosophy at A level and I loved it and it's a topic I love discussing with anyone who will listen! However, that said, I am open minded and would never dismiss anyone elses faith or opinion

 

[moomin_troll]

ok...too much for my little brain to take in at this time of night haha

 

[PeanutBean]

I personally believe in the big bang as a fact (well a 99.9999999% most likely scenario at least, so far) and I also believe in evolution (although, if i'm honest, when I see those insects that LOOK exactly like leaves, i'm like COME ON!!!! NO matter how benficial it would be for the human race to look like a ... a... I dunno, like a rubber plant, I just SIMPLY do not understand HOW any creature evolves to look like that!!!! maybe the geneticists can give me a hand here!!!!)

But I also believe in God. Like truly, madly and deeply and believe in a spiritual or mystical ... facet to life which can be experienced by MANY many individuals (those inclined to be attuned and perhaps those open to be attuned) which for the MOST or perhaps even WHOLE part cannot be scientifically recorded or tested.

I KNOW the above paragraph may make me sound like a nutter to some and I don't expect people to take me seriously or believe my own experiences (which I'm not super cagey about but wouldn't want to share over the internet and aren't so amazing that would warrant some type of mass hysteria even if I were to be believed anyway) and so I think everyone has their own experiences and their reality is formed by them.

The thing is, that although I believe that all paths to God (within certain parameters) are valid and important in an essential way, I'm much more likely (probably due to the socio-political landscape being as it is in the world today) to think badly of someone (sorry!!!!) if they tell me they don't believe in science than if they tell me they don't believe in any spiritual/religious reality/path etc.

I suppose it could be because I think people who are atheists are for the most part sincere people who are trying to find the truth for themselves and too many religious people look to other people for spiritual or religious guidance and superiority.

And despite thinking all people have the right to believe what they will so long as it doesn't harm another, there's nothing that QUITE gets my goat than religious figure heads telling other people what is holy and what is good and what is right. We all have a conscience and if we are from societies that are literate, we can read and so its up to the individual to decide.

I suppose I consider myself religious but to be honest, most religious people send me a little crazy.

Oh, an for the record, I don't think God is human or that humans are relfections of God, I think God is either the universe, OR the mathematical nature/order of the universe OR God is reflected in the universe. I know I don't know anything at the end of the day and wish all people, even those who believe so deeply could say the same without feeling any form of betrayal or lack of morality in doing so.

Yeah.... so that's what i think.

lol you'd be amazed by the frequency of genetic mutations and you need to put into context how long insects have been around to evolve to look like that. It is incredible but it's mathematically possible for sure. If it wasn't so late I'd do some googling to find the average rates of genetic mutation and how many millions of years insects have been around. I used to be a little sceptical of genetics being able to explain some things but that all changed in one lecture at uni where I learned that genes are responsible for our body clocks (this is what my research was in after my degree). I hadn't really understood before that just how flexible and fascinating the genetic/protein system is.

I'm glad you mentioned maths, I think when all things are considered maths really is the most amazing thing. The patterns that exist in this universe are incredible and I wish I knew more about it!

 

[PeanutBean]

ok...too much for my little brain to take in at this time of night haha

Tell me about it! I think I need to go play Hakuna Matata on PS3 and continue with this tomorrow!

 

[moomin_troll]

ok...too much for my little brain to take in at this time of night haha

Tell me about it! I think I need to go play Hakuna Matata on PS3 and continue with this tomorrow!

i just need to sleep and then maybe ile be able to read the big posts n actualy get it to sink in as i am very interesrted in this thread now lol

 

[Pyrrhic]

I am a scientist at heart, but I am also religious I am fascinated by physics, and theoretical physics. Especially things like string theory. My OH has a MSc in Physics and Quantum Physics, so we talk about it quite a bit. I studied Aerospace Engineering at University.

I believe in the big bang, and evolution but I believe that God had a part to play in it and I do believe in Genesis.

I don't believe the two have to be mutually exclusive at all.

 

[sparkswillfly]

ok...too much for my little brain to take in at this time of night haha

Its too much for my brain anytime

 

[Sarahkka]

I have a friend who is a really incredible man - won national awards as a playwright, has a PhD as a mathematician and started this wonderful tutoring program in math for underprivileged kids that I used to work for. He once described to me how these equations he was working on were "elegant". They were being used to calculate the path a particle and a large object like a comet would both travel in space (or something like that). I realized that he thought of math in such an artistic way. It made me wonder how we would all do in math class if we were taught it creatively.

 

[tasha41]

it would be nice like ive said to have utter faith but how can the bible be the word of god thru n thru if it was written by man?

Christians believe that the Bible was written by man through the instruction of God.. God appeared to people/spoke to them and told them to write His word.. that is how it's the word of God, God guided the prophets who wrote.

 

[redpoppy]

I am a scientist at heart, but I am also religious I am fascinated by physics, and theoretical physics. Especially things like string theory. My OH has a MSc in Physics and Quantum Physics, so we talk about it quite a bit. I studied Aerospace Engineering at University.

I believe in the big bang, and evolution but I believe that God had a part to play in it and I do believe in Genesis.

I don't believe the two have to be mutually exclusive at all.

QUANTUMS PHYSIIIIIIIICS!!!!!!!!!

LOVE IT! Don't understand a damn thing about it but just LOVE IT! LOVE IT! LOVE IT!!!!

Once I get time to finish the book i've been reading for the last two months I'm actually oging to sit down and read Roger Penrose's The Emperor's New Mind. Which will take me a good six months. So when people ask me: What books have you read in the past year I can hold up Shantaram and that and shout in hormonally deficient post natal anger at anyone who looks down on me!

 

[Pyrrhic]

I am a scientist at heart, but I am also religious I am fascinated by physics, and theoretical physics. Especially things like string theory. My OH has a MSc in Physics and Quantum Physics, so we talk about it quite a bit. I studied Aerospace Engineering at University.

I believe in the big bang, and evolution but I believe that God had a part to play in it and I do believe in Genesis.

I don't believe the two have to be mutually exclusive at all.

QUANTUMS PHYSIIIIIIIICS!!!!!!!!!

LOVE IT! Don't understand a damn thing about it but just LOVE IT! LOVE IT! LOVE IT!!!!

Once I get time to finish the book i've been reading for the last two months I'm actually oging to sit down and read Roger Penrose's The Emperor's New Mind. Which will take me a good six months. So when people ask me: What books have you read in the past year I can hold up Shantaram and that and shout in hormonally deficient post natal anger at anyone who looks down on me!

I have to admit I am more into my theoretical physics than quantum, but OH laps it up. He did his entire MSc on light particles and lasers.