The failure of Feminism?

[indy and lara]

Yes I am a feminist and proud to be one. But when I say that to people they give me a very funny look. Most women would deny they were a feminist as it seems to have become synonymous with man-hating lesbians. I think that feminism did a lot for women but where it went wrong was in assuming that what women want is to 'have it all' - babies and work. If you were a woman that wanted to be a houswife or a SAHM then you were brainwashed and needed to be 'freed'. As a result women have stopped being slaves within the home only to become slaves in the workplace. What feminism should have focussed on (IMO) was about women's choices - if a woman wants to become a high flying executive she should be supported and encouraged, equally if a woman wants to be a SAHM then she should also be supported and encouraged.

I could not agree more. I went to uni, graduated, worked, had opportunities to go into a promoted post at work and so on. So I have had a 'career'. When Emma was born however, I wanted to stay at home with her and not work and that is what I do now. I am a SAHM.

Feminism is about being able to do whatever you chose and not being stopped due to your sex.

 

[PeanutBean]

I most definitely consider myself a feminist and have done since I was a teen and began to think seriously and philosophically about life. I also think it is a term that has negative connotations for most people (and always has had) and the concept of the movement is generally misunderstood.

I agree with what Marley has said about the mistake of assuming that a woman cannot possibly choose to want to be a housewife. I am the classic have it all woman except I've been forced into it and am not satisfied. I went to uni and did a PhD (that I didn't write up and will argue that aside from my crap supervisor the main reason for my leaving academic science directly relates to how entirely masculine the field still is). My career is by no means high powered but it certainly an enjoyable and unusual one that wouldn't be open to me without education. I am the main earner in my family. DH in fact has a 'woman's' job as it happens. But this means I can never be home with my children because we can't afford it and I am trapped in a career when I would really like a break to be a full time mum for a while.

But feminism is vast, way way bigger than career woman vs homemaker. I think it has lost its way in geneal popular culture. I think it has sadly probably lost the battle over artificial enhancement of women. But we still have a big pay gap between men and women (for the same job) despite all the equality laws. We still have the lowest paid and most menial jobs largely done by women - and this is largely because of family responsibilities and the desire/need to work part time to be with children. I agree that it will be a better world when dads can have true cultural equality to be with their children but I am saddened that for women to get the right to a decent part time job it will probably come about through laws enabling fathers that right.

The field of science is a fascinating one for considering gender equality. We are eternally trying to drive women into the field and asking what is wrong with science that so many women leave despite more and more of them in undergraduate science degrees. But like others have said I believe men and women are generally different (along a scale of course). I think that no matter how much pushing is done there will always be more men in physics because of the single-minded nature of the subject and probably there will be a time when there are more women than men in biology. That's ok. The issue is around the opportunity. The process of schooling and societal pressure turning girls away from intellectual subjects. The construction of how achievement is measured in science being in itself detrimental to anyone taking a career break, however short, which naturally puts women with families behind men.

Anyway, a brief dip into my thoughts on feminism there! I have many

 

[Justagirlxx]

I am not a feminist. I do not think that men and women are created equal. Men and women ARE different and I like to celebrate those differences. Unfortunately most of the "Feminists" that I've met are generally man-haters. And I feel as though somewhere along the line they've missed the point. I think men and women's differences should be celebrated and encouraged. We each have strong and weak points and we should all focus on the strong ones, and try to grow as a society while loving and respecting each other as different, each with different abilities. Its also sad to me that a lot of feminists look down on stay at home moms. I love my family and although I am finishing my degree in Psychology this year, I want to stay home with my son and maybe start working part time when he is in school. And I think thats admirable. I feel as though society now expects SOO much from women. We are expected to get married, have children, get an education, AND work. No longer is is possible to be respected as a woman who stays at home and takes care of her family. And that is so so sad to me. What kind of choice is that? What kind of freedom is that? I feel as though the feminist movement made progress but not enough, and maybe in the wrong direction. I don't need to be "freed" from the oppression of wanting to raise my family. I need to be "freed" from being forced to work and being forced to get an education and get a job that I don't want.

 

[Nibblenic]

Do you really feel forced to have gotten an education? I mean if you are doing a degree surely thats been your choice? Youve had the freedom through femminisn to choose to get an education or not to get an education. Rather than being forced home every friday for 'wash day' so you couldn complete even education past 11 years.

Surely a man and women doing the same job are entitled to equal pay though? Even if they are not equal in other areas. If they are doing exactly the same job they should be entitled to the same salary

 

[New Mrs W]

Feminism isn't a term or concept that I even consider, but TBH that is probably thanks to those ladies who went before me and fought for equal rights for women and who coined the term "feminist". I have never been prevented from doing what I have wanted to do because of my sex, have never felt secondary to a man for reasons of my sex, have never been forced to do something because I am a woman. The world we live in today is as it is because of our ancestors and I am fully aware and fully appreciative of the ladies who have made it possible for me to be able to be a SAHM or a mummy who works and not feel any the less of a person either way. I think in a way, we have come full circle and can feel happy to be home makers and SAHMs because we know that we now have the freedom to follow a different path should we choose to. So no, I am not a feminist, but that's not to say that I don't appreciate feminism.

 

[redpoppy]

I am a feminist and have never had any stick for using the word. Guess I've been lucky.

Although a woman in a bank when I started Uni had a go at me for calling myself a "Ms." (instead of a Miss) because I wasn't divorced or old.

But I think feminism has TOTALLY failed in almost every regard in terms of the quality of life women have globally and also in terms of what it means to be a feminist which is why many women don't use the term.

On one hand you have radicals or some second wave feminists who did think the whole point was about losing gender differences although I imagine many of them would change their view now. Back then it must have seemed like all the things women were "supposed" to be were imposed on them by men.

On the other hand you have women who think stripping, being porn stars or prostitutes is emancipation. That sex is power etc.

And then you have women who are critical of any woman who chooses to be a stay at home mother and do not think a woman who is devoting her life to motherhood is a feminist.

Its a total mess.

On top of the billions of opinions (which is fine and fair as surely we should have that freedom) the most messy thing is that women don't have it all. We can't have it all. We just end up doing it all. And our communities and support structures and any remnants of "sisterhood" are pretty much dead too.

But ultimately all I think feminism can be defined by: Do you think women should be free to live live without abuse, without oppression, without injustice and with the freedom of choice and self determination?

If so, in my opinion you are a feminist.

 

[Nibblenic]

But ultimately all I think feminism can be defined by: Do you think women should be free to live live without abuse, without oppression, without injustice and with the freedom of choice and self determination?

If so, in my opinion you are a feminist.

I really like how you put that!

 

[marley2580]

I think another problem that feminism faces is that people now think that things are equal - women can get the jobs they want, they are entitled to equal pay etc. The problem is that the slightly more abstract issues, such as women doing the majority of the housework or being afraid to walk down the street at night, are almost seen as things that can't be changed as they are part of human nature.

There's also a lack of understanding of these issues eg. a lot of people don't get the whole 'every man is a potential rapist' thing as they (perhaps quite rightly) see it as a major insult to men. But the point is that for a woman walking alone at night, any man is a potential rapist as the fear is so ingrained into a woman's psyche that if she passes a man in that street she automatically becomes more alert and watching for danger - a man does not have the same reaction.

I hope this makes sense, I need to go to bed now lol

 

[Justagirlxx]

I say "forced" in a very loose way. I don't mean someone put a gun to my head and made me go to college. I guess I should say I didn't have much of a choice. Once woman flooded the work place they changed the entire way our economy works. Of course the war had everything to do with this, at that time there really wasnt a choice either...But families can no longer live off one income, so many times what you see are women who would love to stay home with their family but because of money are made to get an education and a job. In a perfect world a woman could really CHOOSE to stay home or choose to work, but many of us do not have that choice.

 

[PeanutBean]

I think it's more of a myth than people imagine that all families would be living off a single income in the past. Certainly my Mum (who is 60) says it's never been so in the UK in her lifetime. Only wealthier families could afford to live on one income (just like now) and the biggest difference was that women had to work doing awful, poorly paid, menial work without the option of anything better. If one goes back further into Victorian times the same certainly applies, and further still and only the aristocracy would really be able to afford to live in comfort with ladies of leisure.

Of course looking back like this many men equally had to do dreadful and low-paid work too. The poorer families lived in very extreme poverty compared to today (whilst acknowledging that in the UK we certainly do still have genuine poverty).

Back to the 20th century, my Mum's Mum died when she was 8 but her father ws a chemist which was a very wealthy occupation so was able to support them and ship her and her brother out of his way to boarding school. My Dad on the other hand had both parents working, my Granny was a nurse. She was born in 1910 I think and so always worked.

 

[bky]

My mother told me when I was young that she became a teacher because the only things women could do in 'her time' was become teachers or nurses. I thought that was totally moronic even when I was 5 because I could clearly see women my mother's age and older in a range of professions.
I do think the single income family being the norm is a myth. For ever women have taken in washing and sewing, sold eggs and milk and done other similar work from the home, not to mention the range of outside the home work (though that used to be restricted more to cleaning, typing and coffee serving). The American post-war 50's television have painted things with such a funny nostalgia brush. In reality women were working inside and outside the home before that and after that.

 

[redpoppy]

My mother told me when I was young that she became a teacher because the only things women could do in 'her time' was become teachers or nurses. I thought that was totally moronic even when I was 5 because I could clearly see women my mother's age and older in a range of professions.
I do think the single income family being the norm is a myth. For ever women have taken in washing and sewing, sold eggs and milk and done other similar work from the home, not to mention the range of outside the home work (though that used to be restricted more to cleaning, typing and coffee serving). The American post-war 50's television have painted things with such a funny nostalgia brush. In reality women were working inside and outside the home before that and after that.

Maybe the difference is between the working and middle classes?

I think most working class women have worked all over the world for centuries but I think now middle class women have to work for the most part too which they wouldn't have done and still don't do in many places in the world. maybe?

 

[PeanutBean]

I think that's true but the middle classes didn't exist a couple of hundred years ago and now it's a BIG group. I think overall money is somewhat better distributed than it was in the past (though certainly not well enough!) so the middle classes have grown.

 

[oread]

Of course I am a feminist! And it really bothers me that isn't a title that every woman claims proudly. Every man should be a feminist too. Feminism isn't about saying woman are better than men, or that women and men aren't different. Feminism is the idea that no one should be forced into a gender role by society or treated differently because of their sex or gender. Patriarchy is bad for society, it is bad for boys and girls, men and women, and that is why everyone should proudly be a feminist.

https://farm2.static.flickr.com/1059/5146441771_a497eab1b5_z.jpg

 

[oread]

Also, there seems to be a lot of misconceptions here (and in general, sadly) about what feminism is or what feminists are like. I am a feminist. I am also happily married, pregnant, and I'm going to be a stay at home mom at least for a while. My husband is also a feminist, because he believes that we are equals. He is supporting our family financially right now, but that is not his "duty" any more than it is my "duty" to stay home and make babies. I am doing those things because I want to, not because I am obligated to or because I have no other choice. That is what feminism is about. And any feminist who is worth her salt knows that feminism isn't about what lifestyle you chose, its about the fact that you have the freedom make that choice. Being a stay at home mom isn't "un-feminist" and no decent feminist would ever say such a thing. I do think it is wrong that any woman would think that they have have to have children or that their husband is superior to them, but I would still never look down upon them. I would only like them to see that isn't their only option. People should do whatever it is that makes them happy, but they should not feel forced into a particular role by anyone or by society in general.

 

[Justagirlxx]

I think it's more of a myth than people imagine that all families would be living off a single income in the past. Certainly my Mum (who is 60) says it's never been so in the UK in her lifetime. Only wealthier families could afford to live on one income (just like now) and the biggest difference was that women had to work doing awful, poorly paid, menial work without the option of anything better. If one goes back further into Victorian times the same certainly applies, and further still and only the aristocracy would really be able to afford to live in comfort with ladies of leisure.

Of course looking back like this many men equally had to do dreadful and low-paid work too. The poorer families lived in very extreme poverty compared to today (whilst acknowledging that in the UK we certainly do still have genuine poverty).

Back to the 20th century, my Mum's Mum died when she was 8 but her father ws a chemist which was a very wealthy occupation so was able to support them and ship her and her brother out of his way to boarding school. My Dad on the other hand had both parents working, my Granny was a nurse. She was born in 1910 I think and so always worked.

Oh I didn't know that, I'm speaking in terms of the US, I know absolutely zero about UK economics or anything like that. Women didn't work in the US until around the 20s and started in the factories (largely replacing male workers) during WW2.

 

[Sarahkka]

I think it's more of a myth than people imagine that all families would be living off a single income in the past. Certainly my Mum (who is 60) says it's never been so in the UK in her lifetime. Only wealthier families could afford to live on one income (just like now) and the biggest difference was that women had to work doing awful, poorly paid, menial work without the option of anything better. If one goes back further into Victorian times the same certainly applies, and further still and only the aristocracy would really be able to afford to live in comfort with ladies of leisure.

Of course looking back like this many men equally had to do dreadful and low-paid work too. The poorer families lived in very extreme poverty compared to today (whilst acknowledging that in the UK we certainly do still have genuine poverty).

Back to the 20th century, my Mum's Mum died when she was 8 but her father ws a chemist which was a very wealthy occupation so was able to support them and ship her and her brother out of his way to boarding school. My Dad on the other hand had both parents working, my Granny was a nurse. She was born in 1910 I think and so always worked.

Oh I didn't know that, I'm speaking in terms of the US, I know absolutely zero about UK economics or anything like that. Women didn't work in the US until around the 20s and started in the factories (largely replacing male workers) during WW2.

This is true for North America, too, though. Women entered the male work-force and were paid for their work at this period in history that you refer to, but well before this, many many women did incredible amounts of unpaid labour on farms and in households. And it was very common for working class women to go to paid work, as well as their husbands - again for less pay and generally in menial, back-breaking labour. That was one of the things that impressed the hell out of me when I did women's studies courses in uni - the sheer physical strength it took to do regular chores like laundry, even while you were pregnant. And working in mills or as household servants, etc - that was no picnic in terms of strength, either.
Another reason I love the famous speech given by Sojourner Truth, a black woman and emancipated slave who had a freakin' awesome response to the "women are weaker and need protection" argument. Keep in mind, this is from 1851, and re-told in "dialect" by a white woman suffragette in 1863, but it reminds us that the white middle-class experience of the past three generations is only a small part of the story of feminism:

"Dat man ober dar say dat womin needs to be helped into carriages, and lifted ober ditches, and to hab de best place everywhar. Nobody eber helps me into carriages, or ober mud-puddles, or gibs me any best place!" And raising herself to her full height, and her voice to a pitch like rolling thunder, she asked. 'And ain't I a woman? Look at me! Look at my arm! (and she bared her right arm to the shoulder, showing her tremendous muscular power). I have ploughed, and planted, and gathered into barns, and no man could head me! And ain't I a woman? I could work as much and eat as much as a man – when I could get it – and bear de lash as well! And ain't I a woman? I have borne thirteen chilern, and seen 'em mos' all sold off to slavery, and when I cried out with my mother's grief, none but Jesus heard me! And ain't I a woman?"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ain't_I_a_Woman?

 

[Sarahkka]

Of course I am a feminist! And it really bothers me that isn't a title that every woman claims proudly. Every man should be a feminist too. Feminism isn't about saying woman are better than men, or that women and men aren't different. Feminism is the idea that no one should be forced into a gender role by society or treated differently because of their sex or gender. Patriarchy is bad for society, it is bad for boys and girls, men and women, and that is why everyone should proudly be a feminist.

https://farm2.static.flickr.com/1059/5146441771_a497eab1b5_z.jpg

LOVED this.
I agree, feminism has been about way more than the stereotype of the 60s, bra-burning, man-hating, angry activist for a long, long time.
It's about resisting gender fallacies and discrimination and it goes BOTH ways - for men and women.

 

[Sarahkka]

I think another problem that feminism faces is that people now think that things are equal - women can get the jobs they want, they are entitled to equal pay etc. The problem is that the slightly more abstract issues, such as women doing the majority of the housework or being afraid to walk down the street at night, are almost seen as things that can't be changed as they are part of human nature.

There's also a lack of understanding of these issues eg. a lot of people don't get the whole 'every man is a potential rapist' thing as they (perhaps quite rightly) see it as a major insult to men. But the point is that for a woman walking alone at night, any man is a potential rapist as the fear is so ingrained into a woman's psyche that if she passes a man in that street she automatically becomes more alert and watching for danger - a man does not have the same reaction.

I hope this makes sense, I need to go to bed now lol

TOTALLY agree with this!