Upper Lip Tie?

[_Meep_]

Here is a picture of N's backside (and very fetching monk's hairstyle) when she was about four months old. I've noticed recently that it is fleshing out a little and becoming less noticeable, but apparently she will always have it - fine with me as I think it's cute lol.

 

[itsnowmyturn]

I feel like I have to wipe two bums with sophie lol the dimple being the second one lol

 

[_Meep_]

Lol yeah, I have heard many stories of mums patiently digging out the poop!

 

[Rhapsodi]

I cant see the bottom of his dimple (I really looked today, no luck) and he has a very hairy butt. Today I did get a few ingrown hairs out of it (that was fun )

When I was 22/23wks and 35weeks pilondial abscess'. I had surgery to remove the cyst at 3wks pp. So I thought it was funny he had that.

I'm not too worried if he does have spins bifida occulta but I do think it's important to monitor. My DH also has scoliosis so I want it monitored. At 33wks we went to a specialist because ultrasounds were showing echogenic bowels and dialated kidneys. Thankfully during those appointments things were within normal limits but we still have to watch for issues. He seems to poop constantly, and pee only 1-2x a day letting an ocean flow.so I do wonder if any of it is related and with what I read it sounds like it's possible.

 

[itsnowmyturn]

I think as untrained ppl it can be quite difficult to know what ur looking for, not saying that ur wrong by any means but I think the midwives and drs can tell straight away. Also it may be that the end of it is just too deep for u to see.with him being little and when he chubs out a bit it will become more evident. Obviously I'm saying all this in the hope that there is nothing wrong. Sounds like u had an eventful pregnancy glad everything turned out ok xx

 

[Rhapsodi]

Yes, I could be wrong. The dimple is very tiny and it is lower than some things describe. So who knows. He goes to ENT next week but not to his Ped likely until end of March.

 

[itsnowmyturn]

Poor guy.
Hope ent sort something out for u, keep us informed, I have the tt clinic a week on Monday too xx

 

[Rhapsodi]

The ENT decided not to clip it now as it seems to not restrict movement enough. He did say it will likely need to be clipped when hrs older. So I'm a little frustrated! He did say it would affect reflux (although I still disagree). Oh we'll.I tried. He is gaining, reflux is getting better (teething is helping) so I'm not going to loose sleep over it.

 

[itsnowmyturn]

I have a feeling I will get the same answer on Monday, if I do I will just have to learn to live with it I think and cope with the soreness

 

[itsnowmyturn]

Saw the midwife Monday, they said sophie had a 50% very thick frenulum that was causing significant restricted movements so they snipped it. She was clingy and upset the whole of the afternoon and evening after. Her feeding is yet to improve but obviously as she's been feeding this way for 8 weeks it may take her a little bit of time to get used to it. She still has the dip in the tip of her tongue, wouldn't that go when it was snipped?

 

[_Meep_]

Did they check/snip all the way back? If she still has posterior tie, then it could cause the dimpling? Is it always dimpled or just if you press under her tongue? It might just be that this is what her tongue looks like. Try watching when she cries and see if she lifts her tongue right up to the top of her mouth - N's used to look like a spoon when she cried but now it raises right up.

It took at least a month for us to see an improvement in her breastfeeding.

 

[itsnowmyturn]

Iv tried to take pictures of it when she cries but can't see it very well with the lighting. She never goes for a big mouthful of breast she sort of sucks my nipple in, iv tried loads of times to get her to open her mouth wide but she won't. I honestly don't see any difference in her tongue other than she is dribbling more now than she used to, there was a diamond cut but whether it's gone far enough back or not I don't no, il wait for it to heal then have a feel in there

 

[_Meep_]

Hmm, it's hard to tell isn't it? It does look like she's raising her tongue up far more than N could before she had hers cut though. N NEVER opened her mouth very wide and still doesn't but I do feel like it has gotten a bit better in that respect. Her lip tie still restricts her in my opinion, but I am happy to settle for 'good enough' for now.

Sophie is probably just dribbling because she has a wound in her mouth I expect ...

I'm including a few pictures so you can see what I'm on about. The one where she is screaming her head off (she had literally just been born lol) shows the 'spoon' shape of her tongue when she cried. In the one where she's laughing, you can see how weird, bunched up and dimpled it was.

I've also stuck on a couple of her after the procedure where you can see how much higher she could instantly lift her tongue. She had a little diamond shaped cut too. We had to do stretching exercises and massage for a week or two to stop it reattaching.

And for everyone else, I'm putting one on of her sticking her tongue out pre-procedure, in case anyone in doubt happens to see this - front-of-tongue mobility means nothing if the back of the tongue is tethered! Please get it checked if you are having issues!

 

[itsnowmyturn]

Hmm I'm not sure it's hard to tell because I have no frame of reference with a baby that hasn't had one.
Il second tip of tongue makes no difference, sophie could always stick her tongue out but when the midwife checked her suck she said she only sucks with the tip n pulled her tongue bk n forth to create friction to get the milk out. The midwife is going to call me on Monday, if there's no improvement I might mention that im not seeing any difference in the shape etc, I guess if they don't get it with the first snip it's hard to find it with the blood and screaming baby and u don't want to mess with it. Don't they have to use a GA after 10 weeks old though? They didn't mention any stretches etc to do, just said if it starts bleeding to out her on the breast because it will compress it and stop the bleeding

 

[itsnowmyturn]

I got a couple more clearer pictures, still can't get one of the snip though.
Nothing seems to have changed, she still gets trapped wind, still refluxes, still hurts when she feeds, still does the same actions feeding, nothing at all has changed

 

[_Meep_]

Aww poor little thing. Her tongue does look quite spoony to me but I am by no means an expert - if you suspect a tie is still there, I suppose all you can do is seek someone out who is a definite specialist.

N's was snipped at 4.5 months with no type of anaesthetic at all, and she was only distraught for a couple of minutes. So they don't need a general. I believe they do need one for lip ties, unless they use a laser, but only one or two places in the UK do that currently.

From what you say about LO's suck, she's obviously been using her tongue wrong for a while. Assuming for the time being that the problem HAS been corrected, she needs to relearn what to do. One thing we were told to do was to try to make her aware of her new mobility - tap her tongue in different places, run a finger round her lower gums to make her tongue follow (and it should follow, not twist sideways), tap her upper gums to get her to raise it up, etc.

But as I said before, it did take a while for things to improve, and all that time I was convinced it would never get better, but it did. I know it is shit waiting and all the stories you hear are about breastfeeding being instantly better. But these are usually stories from mums who had very young babies, a few days or a couple of weeks old when their ties were cut.

 

[itsnowmyturn]

Thanks for the tips I will give them a go, iv been frightened of hurting her with it still healing but I guess she will let me no if it hurts. I need to go to a breastfeeding cafe but I'm still making the most of her being awake in a morning and having some play time with her, would seem a shame to just leave her to her own devices when she only has one or two awake periods a day and this time is so crucial for development.
Iv been trying to adjust her positioning to encourage her to get a deep latch but she's having none of it

 

[_Meep_]

Yeah I hated doing the exercises and the massage with her - it never seemed to bother her but I was crap at it as I was scared of upsetting her. My partner used to do it and make it like a funny game so she hardly noticed and just sat there laughing.

I always wanted to go to a breastfeeding group to get some help but as N has only been feeding lying down in bed with me for so long now, I'd feel a bit stupid turning up and not actually being able to breastfeed her unless we lay on the floor.

It sucks trying to time everything around their awake-time doesn't it. I always feel like I'm constantly trying to stuff as much information into N as I can lol and I hate leaving her with anyone else in case they don't interact with her in the 'right' way ... mad!

Changing position only helped us in terms of coping with my flow. I've always found it very hard to get the deep latch everyone goes on about. I've tried techniques like the 'exaggerated latch' and the 'flipple' but could never get the hang of them and they actually made things worse as she just wasn't comfortable. So now I just let her do it her own way. Must be difficult though when your LO causes you discomfort ...

Are things getting any better at all?

 

[itsnowmyturn]

I don't feel like they are, she's getting increasingly fussy during feeding and after but I think there's also some GI issues going on, either an intolerance/allergy or lactose overload so they could be causing that too.
She has another appointment on Monday to go and see the tt clinic again so that can give me an answer as the whether she's still tied or not then if not I no to start exploring other avenues. It really annoys me when ppl say that's just what babies do I.E. Vomiting, screaming etc, babies aren't complex, yes they vomit if they overfeed but only posset not huge amounts and they only scream for a reason, the reason could be they want a cuddle or they r too hot/cold or they want a rhythmical motion, but there is still a reason and if uv tried everything externally then there must be something internal. Half 5 this morning she was awake and grunting, straining and crying then falling asleep for a minute then doing it again, she does it every morning and it's like she's trying to force the wind out of herself (and very often achieves it eventually. Anyway I'm getting off track now, I will see what they say on Monday, going to try and get to bf cafe tomorrow, but I'm not all that comfortable with feeding in public and it makes me very clumsy doing it and I get embarrassed by being clumsy doing it lol so I will avoid them if I can, I went weeks avoiding anyone watching me feed except oh lol and only 4 ppl other than oh have now because when I do it in public (which isn't often) I cover up with a poncho so covers baby too.

I totally get what ur saying about leaving her with someone else incase they don't interact properly, it frustrates me with oh because he sits and cuddles with her but because he's cuddling her he can't interact with her, he is getting better but I keep saying look she's awake it's time to help her development. He isn't a very hands on dad tbh I think he worries about doing something wrong and he always says he doesn't no what he's doing, all too often I just end up doing it myself because I don't want him to feel uncomfortable doing stuff and I'm sure he will be better when she gets older and he can do more stuff with her, I think that seems to be quite common with me, doesn't help that he doesn't feed her very often, I'm so over expressing that I would rather have her attached to my side the whole time so I can feed on demand than express and someone else can give.her a. Bottle.
I think ur right with letting her feed the way she wants, if she can't get a latch and I'm trying to force her to open wide she starts getting clumsy and turning her head the wrong way and it just gets frustratin, sometimes she just gives uo and sucks her arm instead lol

 

[_Meep_]

Sorry things seem to be getting worse.

I hate saying 'I know how you feel', because I don't know what it's like for you, but I do know what it was like for me, and it is so hard. I, too, got the stupid comments like 'That's just what babies DO!', or my personal favourite, 'She's a BABY!'

nO, rEaLLy, r u sURe??? wtfomgroflmfao i diD nT NO DaT.

Grrr.

Unfortunately with babies, there always seem to be so many different things going on that it's very hard to work out what the problem(s) might be and you can drive yourself mad trying. And nobody ever thinks it's a big deal or listens to you. It's horrible.

It does sound like she's experiencing some sort of gastric upheaval. N does too, and it used to coincide with her silent reflux flares and nursing strikes, but I still to this day have not definitively identified the cause. The symptoms are always the same but I've never been able to think of one strange thing I've eaten or anything that's happened that could have triggered it. I've just had to guess.

I've driven myself crazy with her breastfeeding issues and been ignored and patronised so frequently by 'professionals', family members, etc. that I think I've probably been close to developing PND. I've certainly been excessively upset and anxious and to be honest I haven't yet truly enjoyed any part of her life, which is so sad. There have been days where I've just wanted her to grow up so I can stop worrying about all this. People keep telling me not to wish her babyhood away. But they are people who have never experienced breastfeeding problems and felt how that feels. It is such a deeply personal experience, and it is awful when it doesn't seem to get easier after the first six weeks like it does for everyone else.

Saying that, it WILL eventually get better. If you do manage to keep breastfeeding, as she grows, it can ONLY get better. Thankfully, unless there is a serious underlying issue at work (the thought of which I've tortured myself with many times), babies do tend to just 'grow out' of problems. More days now for us are good than bad. I do still worry it's starting again if we have a dodgy feed, but mostly it's going ok.

I guess what I am saying is, I know to some degree how you feel and I'm with you. If you feel something is wrong, then it probably is. Sophie is clearly one of those babies for whom, like N, breastfeeding is always going to be trickier than it is for other babies. Her problem most likely isn't anything serious and she may well grow out of it ... you may never even find out what the problem was ... but it's damned hard to deal with and anyone who wants to pass it off as just a baby thing is being insensitive. People should be supporting you even if they can't help solve the issue - not patronising you.

I feel the same way about my OH. She adores him and he is great with her but sometimes he tries to get her to go to sleep when she doesn't want to, because he can't always be bothered to play with her. Also, every nappy he puts on is around 87% more likely to leak.

Hope you manage to get to the breastfeeding cafe and don't feel too self-conscious! I guess everyone there has the same parts and is doing the same thing lol ... but hey, who am I to say anything about it - I spend my time breastfeeding my daughter in bed!