Calling all Agnostic/Atheist Mommas

[kates84]

Yeah, quite frankly I could not care less about anyone believe in a flying teapot. If it makes them happy and thus they're projecting happy / empathetic / humorous energy into the world, why the hell not? I'd take a fun teapot-believer over an ornery agnostic any day... And I am one!

Like my mom says, "Do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy?"

But what if said teapot-worshipper ran congregations for other teapot-worshippers, and unions of men and women required the blessing of the teapot? What if newborns were presented to the shrine of the teapot and dipped in tea to inaugurate them into the worship of the teapot? And what if people went to war and killed each other in the name of the teapot?

This is obviously tongue in cheek but the point remains valid

Humans will always find an excuse to be A**holes. Even as an agnostic, I don't know how anyone read the words of Jesus and thought "Well, that sounds like a Messiah who'd really love it if we burn suspected heretics to death. Oh, and I'm sure he'd really appreciate a holy crusade to kill all the unbelievers"

 

[SaraEmily]

Love and empathy from a biological point of view is discussed in 'The Selfish Gene' by Richard Dawkins.

I don't believe humans have a limit to what they can know as a species, obviously there's a limit for individuals. A lot of people like some things to remain a mystery or there to be a reason why things happen (hence the popularity of religions) because it's more romantic and interesting and less scary than there being no reason to life and it all just being one big, rather fascinating, accident.

But there is a limit to what we know right now. I think the biggest reason that religion remains to this day (and the reason I'm agnostic, and not atheist) is because science has yet to explain how our universe came to exist. When science can explain the age old question of "why am I here?" then religion will likely cease to exist.

 

[Noelle610]

Yeah, quite frankly I could not care less about anyone believe in a flying teapot. If it makes them happy and thus they're projecting happy / empathetic / humorous energy into the world, why the hell not? I'd take a fun teapot-believer over an ornery agnostic any day... And I am one!

Like my mom says, "Do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy?"

But what if said teapot-worshipper ran congregations for other teapot-worshippers, and unions of men and women required the blessing of the teapot? What if newborns were presented to the shrine of the teapot and dipped in tea to inaugurate them into the worship of the teapot? And what if people went to war and killed each other in the name of the teapot?

This is obviously tongue in cheek but the point remains valid

Well if they're going to war and killing each other in the name of the teapot, that doesn't exactly fall into the category of "projecting happy / empathetic / humorous energy into the world".

There are jerks on both sides of the fence. I'm currently reading a book about pre-World War II Russia, where religious people had to worship in secret for fear of retaliation from the government.

I'm not religious, I find a lot of it unbelievable, but I think it's unfair to pretend that teapot-believing is the cause of all of the world's problems. I think most religious people are just normal, decent people with beliefs that are different than mine.

I agree with a lot of what you've said, except for the idea that teapot-believing is not the cause of all the world's problems, which I'd counter with 'Yes, ok, but it IS probably the cause of most of them.' We can't deny that religion (and I'm being deliberately non-specific here) has been a player in the deaths/ruining/ostracising/polarisation of huge amounts of people, in both recent and ancient history. which is exactly the reason why I am an antitheist. Such people - the normal, decent people you speak of - set against each other vehemently and violently. Maybe I'm naive, but were it not for religion, I think the world might have been a more peaceful place.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I wrote the thesis for my sociology degree on group think in the Third Reich, which at it's core is extremely anti-religious. I maintain there are assholes on both sides of the coin.

 

[staralfur]

Yeah, quite frankly I could not care less about anyone believe in a flying teapot. If it makes them happy and thus they're projecting happy / empathetic / humorous energy into the world, why the hell not? I'd take a fun teapot-believer over an ornery agnostic any day... And I am one!

Like my mom says, "Do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy?"

But what if said teapot-worshipper ran congregations for other teapot-worshippers, and unions of men and women required the blessing of the teapot? What if newborns were presented to the shrine of the teapot and dipped in tea to inaugurate them into the worship of the teapot? And what if people went to war and killed each other in the name of the teapot?

This is obviously tongue in cheek but the point remains valid

Humans will always find an excuse to be A**holes. Even as an agnostic, I don't know how anyone read the words of Jesus and thought "Well, that sounds like a Messiah who'd really love it if we burn suspected heretics to death. Oh, and I'm sure he'd really appreciate a holy crusade to kill all the unbelievers"

Totally. People commit terrible acts in the name of politics, love, money, etc. I don't think it's fair to write off someone's value in religion because some people abuse it; just as I'd never criticize someone for voting because politics can cause war, or tell someone they shouldn't get a job because some people are greedy.

 

[Noelle610]

Love and empathy from a biological point of view is discussed in 'The Selfish Gene' by Richard Dawkins.

I don't believe humans have a limit to what they can know as a species, obviously there's a limit for individuals. A lot of people like some things to remain a mystery or there to be a reason why things happen (hence the popularity of religions) because it's more romantic and interesting and less scary than there being no reason to life and it all just being one big, rather fascinating, accident.

Again, I just disagree. I do think there's a limit to what humans can know as a species. There certainly is a limit for other mammals.... Why would we be any different? Simply because our nervous system is more advanced?

I think some people use science as a comfort in the same way others do with religion.

 

[Lindsey123]

Yeah, quite frankly I could not care less about anyone believe in a flying teapot. If it makes them happy and thus they're projecting happy / empathetic / humorous energy into the world, why the hell not? I'd take a fun teapot-believer over an ornery agnostic any day... And I am one!

Like my mom says, "Do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy?"

But what if said teapot-worshipper ran congregations for other teapot-worshippers, and unions of men and women required the blessing of the teapot? What if newborns were presented to the shrine of the teapot and dipped in tea to inaugurate them into the worship of the teapot? And what if people went to war and killed each other in the name of the teapot?

This is obviously tongue in cheek but the point remains valid

Humans will always find an excuse to be A**holes. Even as an agnostic, I don't know how anyone read the words of Jesus and thought "Well, that sounds like a Messiah who'd really love it if we burn suspected heretics to death. Oh, and I'm sure he'd really appreciate a holy crusade to kill all the unbelievers"

Can't argue with that first point I include myself in that, sometimes

However, the second point, I have to disagree. The Bible specifically states that non-believers are to be dealt with harshly:

"And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God..." (Deuteronomy 13: 5)

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;" (Deuteronomy 13: 6)

"Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people." (Deuteronomy 13:8-9)

"Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword." (Deuteronomy 13:15)

 

[Dragonfly]

I think that anyone who claims to know for certain, without a doubt, whether there is or isn't a god, is just being arrogant. I understand the logic of not believing in something unless there's evidence, but to disrespect other people's beliefs and call it a fairy tale con business is taking it too far. Some people have no respect. And if you think some people don't deserve respect because they disagree with you, that's awful.

Must you insult all who believe in different than you? I am not arrogant for my belief I would never call someone elses belief a name. Perhaps try respect too

I apologize for calling anyone arrogant. It was a reactionary post to MommyJogger's rude post. I do think it's a bit overconfident, since our current science can't explain everything, but I was a bit harsh. I do try to respect everyone's beliefs. I just have bad experiences with militant atheists the way some have bad experiences with fundamentalist theists. Very sorry to offend!

It would be like me saying your belief was bull crap to your face. Just looked as bad as the other person sinking so low to insult their beliefs. I dont believe in what most of my friends even believe but I keep that to myself. I went to a Christian wedding at the weekend, that was interesting. I also got some crap treatment and so did my kids as they knew I wasnt a Christian. I just hate all that. I treat according to how I am treated regardless of belief.

 

[kates84]

Yeah, quite frankly I could not care less about anyone believe in a flying teapot. If it makes them happy and thus they're projecting happy / empathetic / humorous energy into the world, why the hell not? I'd take a fun teapot-believer over an ornery agnostic any day... And I am one!

Like my mom says, "Do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy?"

But what if said teapot-worshipper ran congregations for other teapot-worshippers, and unions of men and women required the blessing of the teapot? What if newborns were presented to the shrine of the teapot and dipped in tea to inaugurate them into the worship of the teapot? And what if people went to war and killed each other in the name of the teapot?

This is obviously tongue in cheek but the point remains valid

Humans will always find an excuse to be A**holes. Even as an agnostic, I don't know how anyone read the words of Jesus and thought "Well, that sounds like a Messiah who'd really love it if we burn suspected heretics to death. Oh, and I'm sure he'd really appreciate a holy crusade to kill all the unbelievers"

Can't argue with that first point

However, the second point, I have to disagree:

"And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God..." (Deuteronomy 13: 5)

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;" (Deuteronomy 13: 6)

"Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people." (Deuteronomy 13:8-9)

"Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword." (Deuteronomy 13:15)

That is the old testament - which by jove is full of smiting! But in the Christian faith, the old testament is over ridden by the New and is there to provide context.

Jesus himself was one of the original hippies all about the peace and love man. Have you never seen Jesus sandals?

Anyway I don't want to turn this in to a bible study debate (you and I can take it to PM if you like, it's a subject I find very interesting). My point is that people will twist anything and everything to justify their own cruelty, bigotry and desire for war.

 

[Lindsey123]

Yeah, quite frankly I could not care less about anyone believe in a flying teapot. If it makes them happy and thus they're projecting happy / empathetic / humorous energy into the world, why the hell not? I'd take a fun teapot-believer over an ornery agnostic any day... And I am one!

Like my mom says, "Do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy?"

But what if said teapot-worshipper ran congregations for other teapot-worshippers, and unions of men and women required the blessing of the teapot? What if newborns were presented to the shrine of the teapot and dipped in tea to inaugurate them into the worship of the teapot? And what if people went to war and killed each other in the name of the teapot?

This is obviously tongue in cheek but the point remains valid

Humans will always find an excuse to be A**holes. Even as an agnostic, I don't know how anyone read the words of Jesus and thought "Well, that sounds like a Messiah who'd really love it if we burn suspected heretics to death. Oh, and I'm sure he'd really appreciate a holy crusade to kill all the unbelievers"

Can't argue with that first point

However, the second point, I have to disagree:

"And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God..." (Deuteronomy 13: 5)

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;" (Deuteronomy 13: 6)

"Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people." (Deuteronomy 13:8-9)

"Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword." (Deuteronomy 13:15)

That is the old testament - which by jove is full of smiting! But in the Christian faith, the old testament is over ridden by the New and is there to provide context.

Jesus himself was one of the original hippies all about the peace and love man. Have you never seen Jesus sandals?

Anyway I don't want to turn this in to a bible study debate (you and I can take it to PM if you like, it's a subject I find very interesting). My point is that people will twist anything and everything to justify their own cruelty, bigotry and desire for war.

The phrase "Full of smiting" made me LOL

I completely agree with your final point, and so on that note, I shall depart for bed now my baby is FINALLY ready for sleep. 2 hours earlier than last night, though... maybe there IS a God *ducks*

Thanks to all the ladies who've contributed here today - I've really enjoyed talking about this. Am always up for religious debate - am fascinated with the subject.

Would appreciate it if you would all stop posting things that I want to respond to now, please - I just know I'll be on my mobile in bed reading haha Night, all!

 

[MommyJogger]

If we're going to get specific about a religion, then I won't feel bad for picking one out to clarify my vitriolic reaction to religion further. Even if we go with modern Christians, the 'tolerant', new testament ones, the core of their belief system is that if you believe in this Jesus fellow, you go to heaven. If you don't, you suffer for an eternity from whatever hell might contain.
If you believe that someone deserves to burn forever simply for not believing in some guy, then you're not a person I would respect anyway, because that is objectively a terrible reason to suffer for the rest of eternity.
If you don't believe that they deserve to suffer for eternity, then even if you believe in God, surely the right course of action would be to rise up against God for subjecting humans to eternal suffering for a poor reason rather than worshiping at his feet?
Because frankly, if he were a dictator sentencing people to torture for questioning his son's parentage, few people could stand up with him and call him a benevolent leader in good conscience.

 

[Noelle610]

Yeah, quite frankly I could not care less about anyone believe in a flying teapot. If it makes them happy and thus they're projecting happy / empathetic / humorous energy into the world, why the hell not? I'd take a fun teapot-believer over an ornery agnostic any day... And I am one!

Like my mom says, "Do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy?"

But what if said teapot-worshipper ran congregations for other teapot-worshippers, and unions of men and women required the blessing of the teapot? What if newborns were presented to the shrine of the teapot and dipped in tea to inaugurate them into the worship of the teapot? And what if people went to war and killed each other in the name of the teapot?

This is obviously tongue in cheek but the point remains valid

Humans will always find an excuse to be A**holes. Even as an agnostic, I don't know how anyone read the words of Jesus and thought "Well, that sounds like a Messiah who'd really love it if we burn suspected heretics to death. Oh, and I'm sure he'd really appreciate a holy crusade to kill all the unbelievers"

Can't argue with that first point

However, the second point, I have to disagree:

"And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God..." (Deuteronomy 13: 5)

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;" (Deuteronomy 13: 6)

"Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people." (Deuteronomy 13:8-9)

"Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword." (Deuteronomy 13:15)

That is the old testament - which by jove is full of smiting! But in the Christian faith, the old testament is over ridden by the New and is there to provide context.

Jesus himself was one of the original hippies all about the peace and love man. Have you never seen Jesus sandals?

Anyway I don't want to turn this in to a bible study debate (you and I can take it to PM if you like, it's a subject I find very interesting). My point is that people will twist anything and everything to justify their own cruelty, bigotry and desire for war.

The phrase "Full of smiting" made me LOL

I completely agree with your final point, and so on that note, I shall depart for bed now my baby is FINALLY ready for sleep. 2 hours earlier than last night, though... maybe there IS a God *ducks*

Thanks to all the ladies who've contributed here today - I've really enjoyed talking about this. Am always up for religious debate - am fascinated with the subject.

Would appreciate it if you would all stop posting things that I want to respond to now, please - I just know I'll be on my mobile in bed reading haha Night, all!

.... on both counts

 

[SaraEmily]

I think that anyone who claims to know for certain, without a doubt, whether there is or isn't a god, is just being arrogant. I understand the logic of not believing in something unless there's evidence, but to disrespect other people's beliefs and call it a fairy tale con business is taking it too far. Some people have no respect. And if you think some people don't deserve respect because they disagree with you, that's awful.

Must you insult all who believe in different than you? I am not arrogant for my belief I would never call someone elses belief a name. Perhaps try respect too

I apologize for calling anyone arrogant. It was a reactionary post to MommyJogger's rude post. I do think it's a bit overconfident, since our current science can't explain everything, but I was a bit harsh. I do try to respect everyone's beliefs. I just have bad experiences with militant atheists the way some have bad experiences with fundamentalist theists. Very sorry to offend!

It would be like me saying your belief was bull crap to your face. Just looked as bad as the other person sinking so low to insult their beliefs. I dont believe in what most of my friends even believe but I keep that to myself. I went to a Christian wedding at the weekend, that was interesting. I also got some crap treatment and so did my kids as they knew I wasnt a Christian. I just hate all that. I treat according to how I am treated regardless of belief.

I agree. I was annoyed and sunk to the level of the people that annoyed me. I shouldn't have made that generalization.

 

[TinySunshine]

I've been thinking about some of the things that have been brought up through our discussion, such as the idea of one saying to a LO that they can choose to believe one of the number of different religious options out there. Would anyone who says this be more agnostic than athiest..

Also, thinking about the term "who's to decide what's right or wrong" because i too have a lot of discomfort attached to the idea of forcing my child to believe whatever i do, but i stick by my plan to outright say to my child there is no god rather than portraying other beliefs as an option because atheism to me has a lack of further implications, so i don't feel arrogant or restrictive in my approach. I see it as a lack of belief rather than another belief option.

When I'm deciding how to raise my little one, the god part is talking about either FOLLOWING a set of rules for life (however well meaning they may be) or creating an omnipresent tinge to existence of the whole universe even though that may go no further than being an agnostic. I can't see listing possible options in the same light as telling the truth. As a respectful person I will love and get along with my mum and all my beautiful friends without a second thought to what my their beliefs might be but i can't be politically correct with my child and not tell him that there is no god.

If i didn't know i would say "mummy doesn't know, but probably not", however there's never been a reason for me to believe in a creator apart from hearing that other people have chosen to believe in a creator, so like any thing else in life i'll only take the basics of what i see and experience as truth and will outright teach my LO that other people's beliefs are wrong. I will say to assume any "belief" is wrong, you either KNOW something or you don't. I may accept and get along with my mum and all my other friends without a second thought to what is or whether they even have a religion or not, but i feel i have to assertain this with my LO. I don't spend any time trying to get my mum to not be religious because i don't have responsibility over teaching her about life to the best of my knowledge or raising her, but i do with my LO. And because i'm an athiest, i personally feel that religions are other people's views to the best of their knowledge as they say, but it isn't to the best of MY knowledge.

 

[bumpy_j]

Fascinating thread!

My life is so distanced from religion that I find it surreal just thinking about it. Hard to explain really, I feel when passing a church that it is a museum piece but then remind myself that it is still current, people still in this highly scientific and technological world STILL have faith and I am amazed! I pass no negative judgement on those that have faith, I just feel surprised its still around. I wonder how long faith will last?

I think human beings have a limit on what they can understand.

Would you elaborate on this, please, Noelle? In what sense do you mean?

Sure. Basically, I think scientific research has it's limits. If there is a divine being or presence in the universe, it's not unreasonable to think that scientific principles would be limited in their ability to interpret something so vast and intangible. Essentially I don't think science can explain everything.

What about a concept like love? Sure, there are are scientific explanations as to why a mother might feel love for her child or her partner, but surely most of us feel there's something beyond what can be explained? What about compassion? How does that serve us in terms of survival? Where does empathy come from?

You have very similar feelings to me - amazing to hear it come from someone else!

 

[Noelle610]

Fascinating thread!

My life is so distanced from religion that I find it surreal just thinking about it. Hard to explain really, I feel when passing a church that it is a museum piece but then remind myself that it is still current, people still in this highly scientific and technological world STILL have faith and I am amazed! I pass no negative judgement on those that have faith, I just feel surprised its still around. I wonder how long faith will last?

I think human beings have a limit on what they can understand.

Would you elaborate on this, please, Noelle? In what sense do you mean?

Sure. Basically, I think scientific research has it's limits. If there is a divine being or presence in the universe, it's not unreasonable to think that scientific principles would be limited in their ability to interpret something so vast and intangible. Essentially I don't think science can explain everything.

What about a concept like love? Sure, there are are scientific explanations as to why a mother might feel love for her child or her partner, but surely most of us feel there's something beyond what can be explained? What about compassion? How does that serve us in terms of survival? Where does empathy come from?

You have very similar feelings to me - amazing to hear it come from someone else!

Always good to known you're not alone!

 

[Dragonfly]

For any one that dosnt wish to fight about beliefs here is a thread, there is also a mums to be one also.
https://babyandbump.momtastic.com/t...ic-non-religious-secular-humanist-ttcers.html
https://babyandbump.momtastic.com/p...s-secular-humanist-moms-3-a.html#post28034441

 

[Larkspur]

Always good to known you're not alone!

I think you just summarised the whole point of religion.

 

[Noelle610]

Always good to known you're not alone!

I think you just summarised the whole point of religion.

I want cake.

 

[SabrinaKat]

I was raised Protestant, OH is Catholic - we've decided (for the moment), not to baptise LO and hope that we can keep 'organised religion' out of it - HOWEVER, we do hope to show LO about various religions and spiritual thought and behaviour and TBH, I would rather my LO grow up to show kindness to all, be a good person, etc. I respect all religions (as a historian, studied classics at university and for graduate school) and hope to expose LO to all....if LO does find comfort in Christianity (and the message of Jesus can be comforting to small children as a 'friend'), then great, but hope that LO will never feel that he must conform....?

best wishes

ps. I LOVE cake!

 

[SpringerS]

It's like you're looking for a confrontation. I am not religious but I know better to call the way some people cope with the completely insanity of life a 'fairy tale'.

Tbh, I think someone who comes onto a thread aimed at the non-religious and gets offended because one of those non-religious people has a dim view of religion is looking for confrontation. Mommyjogger was just answering the topic honestly.