Calling all Agnostic/Atheist Mommas

[Dragonfly]

You can be good without religion both my kids dont even know who god is yet are good. My kids will be good without a promise of things like heaven. Because they are good. I was threatened a lot as a kid and had to confess to things I never did every week just to be this good person? I was good anyway.

 

[SaraEmily]

Some posters say they'd attend Church out of respect for any belief their child had, or support their belief in God. But what if it were not the Christian God? What if your children came back having learned about Islam at school, or from a friend, and wanted to convert? Or Judaism? Hinduism? Buddhism? Wicca? Satanism? Would you all respect these views too, in the spirit of free thinking and choice, or would you only accept free thinking within the confines of adherence to the prevailing religion of the country you inhabit?

I'm VERY interested in people's responses to this. It's something I feel passionately about and am very much enjoying reading people's contributions

I'd let her pursue any religion she wanted, not just Christianity. Even Satanism, because they don't literally worship satan. Like starlfur said, I'd actually prefer she lean toward an eastern religion as I feel they're more peaceful in nature. The reason I specifically mentioned Christianity earlier is because that's all we've got where we live. The chance of her joining any other religion is slim.

 

[beanzz]

Some posters say they'd attend Church out of respect for any belief their child had, or support their belief in God. But what if it were not the Christian God? What if your children came back having learned about Islam at school, or from a friend, and wanted to convert? Or Judaism? Hinduism? Buddhism? Wicca? Satanism? Would you all respect these views too, in the spirit of free thinking and choice, or would you only accept free thinking within the confines of adherence to the prevailing religion of the country you inhabit?

I'm VERY interested in people's responses to this. It's something I feel passionately about and am very much enjoying reading people's contributions

I'd actually be happier if it was anything other than Christianity. There is only one religion I'd ever see myself following is Buddhism. Obviously I'd support Oakleys choice no matter what religion. There is only Christian churches here though.

 

[MommyJogger]

I'm atheist. DH doesn't know what he believes. We will be teaching our kids that religion exists in the same way I'm going to teach them that conmen exist-- be aware that there are crazy people out there and don't get sucked in.

I find this very offensive!

I totally respect eveyones beliefs whether I agree/believe or not. I would hope (and am pleased nearly all mums on this thread have expressed) that all children are brought up to respect others.

Religion is a business. More often than not they want money and the way they get it is by tricking people into believing something that's not true and telling them that terrible things will happen if they don't believe. I'm not going to respect that, nor will I lie to my son and say that belief in fairy tales is respectable. I would never expect him to respect a friend's beliefs if they believed that they were going to get their Hogwarts letter. I would instead instruct him not to believe anything until he has evidence to. He can respect others for their good qualities. He doesn't have to respect them for their poor ones and I would never tell him he did.

 

[bumpy_j]

I'm atheist. DH doesn't know what he believes. We will be teaching our kids that religion exists in the same way I'm going to teach them that conmen exist-- be aware that there are crazy people out there and don't get sucked in.

I find this very offensive!

I totally respect eveyones beliefs whether I agree/believe or not. I would hope (and am pleased nearly all mums on this thread have expressed) that all children are brought up to respect others.

Religion is a business. More often than not they want money and the way they get it is by tricking people into believing something that's not true and telling them that terrible things will happen if they don't believe. I'm not going to respect that, nor will I lie to my son and say that belief in fairy tales is respectable. I would never expect him to respect a friend's beliefs if they believed that they were going to get their Hogwarts letter. I would instead instruct him not to believe anything until he has evidence to. He can respect others for their good qualities. He doesn't have to respect them for their poor ones and I would never tell him he did.

It's like you're looking for a confrontation. I am not religious but I know better to call the way some people cope with the completely insanity of life a 'fairy tale'.

 

[staralfur]

I agree, I think that's a bit harsh, MommyJogger. Religion is a very personal thing and a huge part of some people's lives.

I have a close friend who is Muslim and she's a religious teacher. Her life is very much centred around her faith and if I didn't respect it, I wouldn't be respecting her. Period.

 

[MommyJogger]

I'm atheist. DH doesn't know what he believes. We will be teaching our kids that religion exists in the same way I'm going to teach them that conmen exist-- be aware that there are crazy people out there and don't get sucked in.

I find this very offensive!

I totally respect eveyones beliefs whether I agree/believe or not. I would hope (and am pleased nearly all mums on this thread have expressed) that all children are brought up to respect others.

Religion is a business. More often than not they want money and the way they get it is by tricking people into believing something that's not true and telling them that terrible things will happen if they don't believe. I'm not going to respect that, nor will I lie to my son and say that belief in fairy tales is respectable. I would never expect him to respect a friend's beliefs if they believed that they were going to get their Hogwarts letter. I would instead instruct him not to believe anything until he has evidence to. He can respect others for their good qualities. He doesn't have to respect them for their poor ones and I would never tell him he did.

It's like you're looking for a confrontation. I am not religious but I know better to call the way some people cope with the completely insanity of life a 'fairy tale'.

If I were looking for a confrontation I would post this somewhere other than a thread created for atheist and agnostics. Sorry if I offended anyone, but I figured this was pretty safe to post here. And sorry again, but I truly see it the same way as respecting someone for having a mental disorder causing delusions. I'm not going to treat them like a leper, but I'm certainly not going to be like "I respect you for your belief in x, y, z."
I guess it comes down to different areas, too. We constantly get pamphlets put in our mailbox from local churches, they knock on our door every weekend, and they kindly left a memo with available baptism times and prices on our door for when we got home from the hospital with a blurb about how important baptism is for his chances at getting into heaven. I'm not going to just smile and nod at that.

 

[SaraEmily]

I think that anyone who claims to know for certain, without a doubt, whether there is or isn't a god, is just being arrogant. I understand the logic of not believing in something unless there's evidence, but to disrespect other people's beliefs and call it a fairy tale con business is taking it too far. Some people have no respect. And if you think some people don't deserve respect because they disagree with you, that's awful.

 

[Natsku]

I think you can respect someone's right to believe in something without having to respect their beliefs. If a religious person asks my opinion on something they believe in I will answer them honestly even though it might offend but if they don't ask me then I would not say anything about their beliefs out of respect.

 

[onetwothreebp]

You're comparing faith to mental illness?

Wow.

 

[Noelle610]

So I'm a total agnostic and won't raise DD with any particular religion.

That said, I don't think religion is "crazy" or like a "fairy tale". Much of it is based firmly in history and cultural tradition. I know many, many rational and intelligent religious people.

Personally, I feel teaching a child that religious people are nutso is pretty dangerous. It's quite prejudiced.

I live in an area where I get the door-to-door stuff and the pamphlets too. It doesn't bother me. The guys in suits - they're mostly Jehovah's Witnesses in my city - are very kind. I just take their literature and go about my day, usually throwing it out later. They think they're helping me. The intention is pure, despite the fact that I don't share their philosophy.

Obviously there are religious people who use their faith as an excuse to be assholes, but I think they're in the minority. There are atheists and agnostics who do the same.

 

[Lindsey123]

I think that anyone who claims to know for certain, without a doubt, whether there is or isn't a god, is just being arrogant.

Slightly off topic here, given the context of the above, but I wanted to add to the above quote and say that, in the argument of the existence of any omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent God, the burden of proof is not on the atheist but rather the believer or the God himself.

It is not arrogant, I think, to state that there is no empirical evidence of the existence of any God. If someone were to present evidence to me, I would sit down, consider it, and change my views accordingly, but in the absence of evidence? I think this is being open minded. Show me evidence, and I will believe. Until then, I have to concur with Dawkins' closing lines in his letter to his daughter:

"And, next time somebody tells you that something is true, why not say to them: ‘What kind of evidence is there for that?’ And if they can’t give you a good answer, I hope you’ll think very carefully before you believe a word they say."

As an aside, I like how this thread has become more than its original intention. Nice to have a good debate

 

[Shadowy Lady]

I'm an atheist and my hubby is more of an agnostic. I will raise my child to respect everybody and chose her own point of view. I will tell her about religions as they are in my opinions: stories ppl believe in before they knew how the world is made.

I would not be upset if she chose to believe in a religion but I highly doubt she will anyway.

 

[XJessicaX]

Fascinating thread!

My life is so distanced from religion that I find it surreal just thinking about it. Hard to explain really, I feel when passing a church that it is a museum piece but then remind myself that it is still current, people still in this highly scientific and technological world STILL have faith and I am amazed! I pass no negative judgement on those that have faith, I just feel surprised its still around. I wonder how long faith will last?

 

[kates84]

I'm atheist. DH doesn't know what he believes. We will be teaching our kids that religion exists in the same way I'm going to teach them that conmen exist-- be aware that there are crazy people out there and don't get sucked in.

I find this very offensive!

I totally respect eveyones beliefs whether I agree/believe or not. I would hope (and am pleased nearly all mums on this thread have expressed) that all children are brought up to respect others.

Religion is a business. More often than not they want money and the way they get it is by tricking people into believing something that's not true and telling them that terrible things will happen if they don't believe. I'm not going to respect that, nor will I lie to my son and say that belief in fairy tales is respectable. I would never expect him to respect a friend's beliefs if they believed that they were going to get their Hogwarts letter. I would instead instruct him not to believe anything until he has evidence to. He can respect others for their good qualities. He doesn't have to respect them for their poor ones and I would never tell him he did.

My husband is a qualified physicist and yet he has religious beliefs. I'm much less logical than him but agnostic.

Despite being agnostic I volunteer for my local church. I can assure you that there is nothing business-like about how they spend their donations. They do a lot of good in my local community and abroad. That is why I volunteer for them.

There are bad apples in religious institutions just like there are bad apples in secular ones. That doesn't make it ok to make offensive generalisations about them.

 

[SaraEmily]

I think that anyone who claims to know for certain, without a doubt, whether there is or isn't a god, is just being arrogant.

Slightly off topic here, given the context of the above, but I wanted to add to the above quote and say that, in the argument of the existence of any omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent God, the burden of proof is not on the atheist but rather the believer or the God himself.

It is not arrogant, I think, to state that there is no empirical evidence of the existence of any God. If someone were to present evidence to me, I would sit down, consider it, and change my views accordingly, but in the absence of evidence? I think this is being open minded. Show me evidence, and I will believe. Until then, I have to concur with Dawkins' closing lines in his letter to his daughter:

"And, next time somebody tells you that something is true, why not say to them: ‘What kind of evidence is there for that?’ And if they can’t give you a good answer, I hope you’ll think very carefully before you believe a word they say."

As an aside, I like how this thread has become more than its original intention. Nice to have a good debate

Like I said, I understand the logic in not following a religion if there's no proof. That makes complete sense to me as an agnostic. But I don't understand people who claim to know without a doubt that they're right. Science explains the how's of the universe, but not the why's, so nobody really knows, or can know. I know some people will disagree with this but I think atheists who claim certainty that there is no god are taking it on faith the same way theists do. Why isn't any burden of proof on the atheist, since they claim to know for sure?

 

[TinySunshine]

I've learnt not to badmouth religious people with strangers, there's a lot of cognitive dissonance and emotional discomfort surrounding it, they get offended and you end up looking like the bad guy. So maybe more selective choice of words is best for this particular forum.

However i do share the same world opinions as you mommyjogger. My mum, my aunt and the pastor at their local church all say evolution and science is a fairy tale. It's happening both ways, allowing this is balance and equality of free speech and i would encourage people NOT to be offended.

My brother was murdered by his girlfriend's family who didn't like that he's not a muslim like them. Our family is devastated by that, absolutely heartbroken. My mum ever since going to church has become a totally different shell of a person she used to be, now she's constantly an advocate and servantt of the church and has no life beyond that. She remains in an emotionally abusive marriage because the pastor told her divorce is a sin.. The rejection of religion is just as personal to some as the belief in a god, so as long as i have to suffer these negative affects of religous people insisting there has to be a god who is followed, i also want to allow the odd person who comes along to be able to wonder out loud if these people are crazy.

I want to get by without arguing with no direction so i personally think of other ways to say it for the sake of peace in my day to day life. Phrasing it as these people having delusions rather than being crazy might be the best way to go about it.

 

[Lindsey123]

You're comparing faith to mental illness?

Wow.

She was talking about the idea of delusion rather than trying to be inflammatory, IMO. If, as an atheist or agnostic, - or just someone detached from the idea of faith - one was to consider the semantics of the words 'faith' and 'delusion', they are so similar as to be almost indistinguishable from one another:

faith, –noun
"belief that is not based on proof"

de·lu·sion, –noun
"a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact"

In this sense, she is absolutely right.

The topic of faith will polarise most people, often extremely passionately. I admit that I can be an absolute arse about this topic and get on my high horse about my beliefs with the best of them, but I also believe that, as an atheist, I am arguing for reason, intellect and logic, therefore I also owe it to my argument to present it in such a way. I am impressed that all of the people on this thread have done the same with no real flaming going on

 

[Noelle610]

Fascinating thread!

My life is so distanced from religion that I find it surreal just thinking about it. Hard to explain really, I feel when passing a church that it is a museum piece but then remind myself that it is still current, people still in this highly scientific and technological world STILL have faith and I am amazed! I pass no negative judgement on those that have faith, I just feel surprised its still around. I wonder how long faith will last?

Probably until scientists can prove without a doubt that a divine presence doesn't exist? So until the end of time?

I am a well-educated, highly logical person, but I think human beings have a limit on what they can understand.

 

[Lindsey123]

I've learnt not to badmouth religious people with strangers, there's a lot of cognitive dissonance and emotional discomfort surrounding it, they get offended and you end up looking like the bad guy. So maybe more selective choice of words is best for this particular forum.

However i do share the same world opinions as you mommyjogger. My mum, my aunt and the pastor at their local church all say evolution and science is a fairy tale. It's happening both ways, allowing this is balance and equality of free speech and i would encourage people NOT to be offended.

My brother was murdered by his girlfriend's family who didn't like that he's not a muslim like them. Our family is devastated by that, absolutely heartbroken. My mum ever since going to church has become a totally different shell of a person she used to be, now she's constantly an advocate and servantt of the church and has no life beyond that. She remains in an emotionally abusive marriage because the pastor told her divorce is a sin.. The belief in no god is just as personal to some as the belief in a god, so as long as i have to suffer these negative affects of religous people insisting there has to be a god who is followed, i also want to allow the odd person who comes along to be able to wonder out loud if these people are crazy.

I want to get by without arguing with no direction so i personally think of other ways to say it for the sake of peace in my day to day life. Phrasing it as these people having delusions rather than being crazy might be the best way to go about it.

I'm so sorry for what has happened to your brother, and your family as a result

You have expressed yourself so eloquently and with such dignity here, when anyone with even the smallest amount of empathy/sympathy with what you've been through would understand a violent anti-religious tirade. I have SO much respect for this. Thank you for sharing.