Can't send books to prisoners

[Noodlebear]

Mental health issues are, sadly, becoming increasingly popular in our world. Unless the issue hinders their understanding of right and wrong it's a total cop out for them to have any 'needs' taken into consideration that would set them apart from other offenders. It is also insulting to the vast majority of people living with similar conditions who still abide by the law because everyone is perfectly capable of doing so. I'd be distraught if I was locked away by myself, if I couldn't enjoy my life to the full so y'know what? - I think I'll do as I should and get by in life. For me it's just that simple. The money wasted giving people 'treats' who quite frankly don't deserve them could go towards helping deserving families out of poverty or bettering our NHS etc.

But the idea is to stop the criminals from committing more crime and the only way to do that is either lock them up forever or try and rehabilitate them. You can't rehabilitate someone by treating them badly, you just make them worse that way. The people with mental health issues that commit crime quite likely have not been getting the help and treatment they need so that they can manage their issues unlike the people who don't commit crime.

I find the points made about mental health issues to be a bit ridiculous, without repeating myself I can't properly reply to that because I find it baffling and insulting. Mental health issues that affect your understanding - I completely agree. But the vast majority - I don't think so, you know exactly what you're doing, you know it is wrong and should not be treated differently. It's not about 'treating them badly' they should have a roof over their heads, clean clothes, warmth, food etc and be grateful for it. You're suggesting that someone who commits a crime should still have a lovely fulfilling life at the tax payers expense and frankly that view annoys me a hell of a lot. Too many see it as a free ride which is 100% not how it should be.

 

[Noodlebear]

Do either of you know people currently in prison? Anyone who has re-offended?

 

[Rachel_C]

I suppose it depends whether you think rehabilitation is worth anything even if the person will never be released. I do. I believe that it's still worth a person trying to become a better person/trying to help them become a better person even if they'll never speak to a person on the outside again. It's a vaguely spiritual/religious matter but one I'm sure atheists can also get on board with (I think most people, believers in God or not, believe that being good has value as an end in itself).

If the most despicable human being ever to have walked the planet wants to become a better person or there is the slightest chance he/she might become better, for me to deny them that opportunity would make me a bad person, IMO. Even if they don't want to become better, denying them something that might make them change their mind would be just as bad.

Books can help people become better people, far more so than TV or games. Taking away books is taking away people's chances to become better; a terrible idea.

 

[Noodlebear]

I think that's interesting. I know 2 people who have been in prison and 1 who's in there currently. The 1st is a dear friend of mine who made a very, very stupid mistake. He has not re-offended (although I think that's more to do with the fact that he's actually a good person) but he has said that he thought nothing of being in there. He found it upsetting to be away from people and was embarrassed by the whole situation but actually being in there wasn't something he struggled with. The second actually re-offended, I have very little to do with him so can't really comment further than that and the 3rd is doing time at the moment. He has made friends in there and seems perfectly happy, he's been offered the chance to do qualifications that he would otherwise have had to work towards and pay for himself but it's all ok now... he doesn't have to buy his own food, doesn't have to pay for his electricity or heating, his friends are a stone's throw away, he doesn't have to worry about rent and at the end of it he'll come out with a brand new qualification without any of the cost. He's completely arrogant and doesn't seem to give a monkeys about the situation so as a person he's no better and I'll eat my hat if that changes. He has no more respect for anything but he has been given a free pass. Bargain. I get very cross about this because I'm not just reading numbers off the internet, I'm actually seeing how it all works (or doesn't!). And I don't think it's right that fantastic opportunities should be offered to criminals when there are countless wonderful people struggling to get by who would benefit greatly from the same opportunity - and they deserve it!

 

[Natsku]

Mental health issues are, sadly, becoming increasingly popular in our world. Unless the issue hinders their understanding of right and wrong it's a total cop out for them to have any 'needs' taken into consideration that would set them apart from other offenders. It is also insulting to the vast majority of people living with similar conditions who still abide by the law because everyone is perfectly capable of doing so. I'd be distraught if I was locked away by myself, if I couldn't enjoy my life to the full so y'know what? - I think I'll do as I should and get by in life. For me it's just that simple. The money wasted giving people 'treats' who quite frankly don't deserve them could go towards helping deserving families out of poverty or bettering our NHS etc.

But the idea is to stop the criminals from committing more crime and the only way to do that is either lock them up forever or try and rehabilitate them. You can't rehabilitate someone by treating them badly, you just make them worse that way. The people with mental health issues that commit crime quite likely have not been getting the help and treatment they need so that they can manage their issues unlike the people who don't commit crime.

I find the points made about mental health issues to be a bit ridiculous, without repeating myself I can't properly reply to that because I find it baffling and insulting. Mental health issues that affect your understanding - I completely agree. But the vast majority - I don't think so, you know exactly what you're doing, you know it is wrong and should not be treated differently. It's not about 'treating them badly' they should have a roof over their heads, clean clothes, warmth, food etc and be grateful for it. You're suggesting that someone who commits a crime should still have a lovely fulfilling life at the tax payers expense and frankly that view annoys me a hell of a lot. Too many see it as a free ride which is 100% not how it should be.

No, I'm suggesting that they be helped to turn their lives around so they don't go back to crime the moment they get out. Limiting access to books is not going to do that. More access to books, more educational and work opportunities, they need more than just food and shelter to change.

 

[Natsku]

My brother is facing the prospect of prison (pretty likely I think).

My ex neighbour is a re-offender. He is the kind of person that rehabilitation doesn't work for (I freely admit that not everyone can be rehabilitated) as he just doesn't care. He's probably going back to prison soon (if he's not there already) as he was busted for drugs recently.

Both my parents work in a prison. My dad is the chaplain and my mum is a teacher there. They see the side of prisoners that others don't see, people who genuinely want to change their behaviour and indeed people who don't. But we shouldn't throw away the prospects of the people who do want to change just because there are also people who don't want to change.

 

[Noodlebear]

It really isn't hard to obey the law though, I have no sympathy at all. Them having books doesn't bother me, the way they're treated as a whole bothers me.

 

[Natsku]

It really isn't hard to obey the law though, I have no sympathy at all. Them having books doesn't bother me, the way they're treated as a whole bothers me.

What about the way they are treated bothers you? How do you think they should be treated? What do you think the main aim of prison is?


If we put aside matters of right and wrong etc and just focus on the results, you can see by the stats that pinkpolkadot posted that a system that treats prisoners less harshly achieves better results in terms of reoffending. Would you rather have prisons treated too nicely (in your opinion) and have less reoffending or treat them differently but have more reoffending?

 

[Noodlebear]

On a subject such as this, anywhere that lumps a whole continent together to form a 'statistic' is wishy washy at best, if you also think that a statistic of re-offenders alone is enough to judge a country's prison system then you are sadly misinformed. Here in the UK we have a reputation of having binge drinkers (that you don't see in many other places) which can lead to arrests and sadly in some instances jail time, we also dish out pitiful sentences in comparison to many other places. You brought up Russia earlier as an example, the laws regarding certain things over there at the moment are horrendous, people are acting out in protest, that has nothing to do with their prisons. Taking the US as example, they allow people to have guns in the home, which means their crimes and laws are already very different to ours preventing us from comparing them. Obviously just a few examples but you see why you can't just take one statistic and jump to a big conclusion.
So, I'm all up for a debate, always interested to hear other people's opinions but I'm not interested in flawed statistics. Unfortunately, they don't really contribute to this debate one way or the other.

 

[Natsku]

Binge drinking is a huge problem here too, people can have guns in their homes here... re-offending stats are a pretty good indicator of how well a system works actually, as well as crime rates in general.

Another good indicator is the experience from when Finland changed from the Russian-style system to the Nordic style. Crime rates during that time continued in the same trend as the other Nordic nations as they always did while the amount of people prison dropped dramatically (highest rates in Europe to one of the lowest) which showed that making prisons "nicer" didn't have cause crime rates to go up.

Funnily enough this came up on reddit today https://imgur.com/gallery/4UViP its a high security prison (so not just prisoners who've committed mild offences), that's what prisons are like here and society isn't suffering because of it.

 

[Noodlebear]

They are if you're comparing how a country has changed over time (the example you gave above was far better than the 'statistics' posted previously) but they don't work for countries who give out totally different sentences and have completely different laws aswell as totally different prisons. You can't begin to draw a conclusion as to whether or not stricter or more relaxed prisons are most effective if so many other things are different. If the country is very religious does that make a difference? If so does the religion make a difference? If one region was made up of mostly families and another was predominantly young adults that would make a difference? The type of crime also makes a difference, someone who regularly gets arrested for assaulting people is very different from someone who is arrested for burglary in order to feed their family. The list goes on. Attitudes vary hugely from country to country, I also think that if you tried to make a young offenders institute liberal that you'd be encouraging testosterone fuelled fights among teenage boys. It really isn't as simple as you'd like to think it is. As I said, I'm interested in your point of view but those percentages do nothing imo as they offer no detail at all, it's just a list that someone has copied and pasted. I can't open that link on my phone but will definitely have a look when I can.

 

[Natsku]

People (researchers etc.) do look at recidivism rates, amongst other things, to compare different prison systems though - here's an example (when you get a chance to open links) https://www.dropoutprevention.org/engage/incarceration-within-american-and-nordic-prisons/

 

[Noodlebear]

Of course they do, what I'm saying is that attempting to make a widespread conclusion from that isn't effective. No 2 countries are the same and differences such as race, religion, age of the population etc are what means that while something might be hugely effective in one part of the world, the effects could be completely the opposite in another. That's why I like proper studies rather than just numbers.

 

[pinkpolkadot]

I find the points made about mental health issues to be a bit ridiculous, without repeating myself I can't properly reply to that because I find it baffling and insulting. Mental health issues that affect your understanding - I completely agree. But the vast majority - I don't think so, you know exactly what you're doing, you know it is wrong and should not be treated differently. It's not about 'treating them badly' they should have a roof over their heads, clean clothes, warmth, food etc and be grateful for it. You're suggesting that someone who commits a crime should still have a lovely fulfilling life at the tax payers expense and frankly that view annoys me a hell of a lot. Too many see it as a free ride which is 100% not how it should be.

So you don't agree that in general a prisoner (regardless of whether they have mental health issues but especially if they have) is going to come out with a worse state of mind if they are treated more harshly in prison? Or do you mean it is just tough luck if they do?

About 70% of the prison population suffer 2 or more mental health disorders so whether they know right from wrong or not it is just a fact of life that these people are more likely to end up in prison for one reason or another.

Do either of you know people currently in prison? Anyone who has re-offended?

No and I agree stats are not always relevent or accurate but I think in this case they are relevent and looking at the huge obvious difference in the numbers there has to be something in it even if they are not completlely accurate. I don't think a few anecdotes are any near as useful as those stats in this debate personally.

I think that's interesting. I know 2 people who have been in prison and 1 who's in there currently. The 1st is a dear friend of mine who made a very, very stupid mistake. He has not re-offended (although I think that's more to do with the fact that he's actually a good person) but he has said that he thought nothing of being in there. He found it upsetting to be away from people and was embarrassed by the whole situation but actually being in there wasn't something he struggled with. The second actually re-offended, I have very little to do with him so can't really comment further than that and the 3rd is doing time at the moment. He has made friends in there and seems perfectly happy, he's been offered the chance to do qualifications that he would otherwise have had to work towards and pay for himself but it's all ok now... he doesn't have to buy his own food, doesn't have to pay for his electricity or heating, his friends are a stone's throw away, he doesn't have to worry about rent and at the end of it he'll come out with a brand new qualification without any of the cost. He's completely arrogant and doesn't seem to give a monkeys about the situation so as a person he's no better and I'll eat my hat if that changes. He has no more respect for anything but he has been given a free pass. Bargain. I get very cross about this because I'm not just reading numbers off the internet, I'm actually seeing how it all works (or doesn't!). And I don't think it's right that fantastic opportunities should be offered to criminals when there are countless wonderful people struggling to get by who would benefit greatly from the same opportunity - and they deserve it!

So you would deny prisoners the chance to get qualifications that could turn around their lives and reduce the chance of reoffending just in the name of exacting revenge for their crime?

To be honest, I think as others have said it all boils down to what you think prison is for. I think it should be for rehabilitation, trying to understand why people have comitted these crimes and help them so that they are less likely to reoffend. I don't think it should be about revenge, ignoring what state they may leave prison in, that is totally pointless in my opinion, and that IS a waste of taxpayers' money.

 

[pinkpolkadot]

In addition to my post above...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-25668081

(Education makes prisoners less likely to reoffend)

 

[Noodlebear]

I've said all I have to say about your stats, they're interesting figures but aren't conclusive of anything on their own. Why is it just about re-offending? I don't think it's enough to try and stop prisoners re-offending. Many of them needn't have gone to prison in the first place but there's no deterrent. If you'd had a really unfortunate start in life and struggled to make ends meet but knew that after a brief stint inside you'd be able to leave with some qualifications that you wouldn't have a chance of getting otherwise, why not? It's just too easy. So, while I accept that you think it's beneficial to find out 'why' that does nothing to help prevent the problem, it just attempts to deal with the aftermath which isn't good enough imo.

 

[Natsku]

I've said all I have to say about your stats, they're interesting figures but aren't conclusive of anything on their own. Why is it just about re-offending? I don't think it's enough to try and stop prisoners re-offending. Many of them needn't have gone to prison in the first place but there's no deterrent. If you'd had a really unfortunate start in life and struggled to make ends meet but knew that after a brief stint inside you'd be able to leave with some qualifications that you wouldn't have a chance of getting otherwise, why not? It's just too easy. So, while I accept that you think it's beneficial to find out 'why' that does nothing to help prevent the problem, it just attempts to deal with the aftermath which isn't good enough imo.

I think you'd have to have something very wrong with your life to willingly give up your freedom, your ability to make decisions about even very simple every things, and significantly worsen your chances to find a job (much harder for an ex-con to get a job) just to get a free qualification.

 

[Noodlebear]

That wasn't meant to be taken that literally! my point is where's the deterrent? There isn't one.

 

[Noodlebear]

I've only ever been CRB checked once, countless employers would never check and after a certain amount of time some offences would no longer count against you so I don't agree that it's much harder to find a job. It just depends on what you're trying to do and what crime you have committed.

 

[pinkpolkadot]

I've said all I have to say about your stats, they're interesting figures but aren't conclusive of anything on their own. Why is it just about re-offending? I don't think it's enough to try and stop prisoners re-offending. Many of them needn't have gone to prison in the first place but there's no deterrent. If you'd had a really unfortunate start in life and struggled to make ends meet but knew that after a brief stint inside you'd be able to leave with some qualifications that you wouldn't have a chance of getting otherwise, why not? It's just too easy. So, while I accept that you think it's beneficial to find out 'why' that does nothing to help prevent the problem, it just attempts to deal with the aftermath which isn't good enough imo.

OK let's leave the stats aside.

I agree we should be looking at stopping criminals offending in the first place as well as reoffending, but I do not think making prison harsher is the way. I think we need to look at what makes someone more likely to offend and tackling those issues. We don't have to wait until someone ends up in prison to help them.

Sorry, I can't believe for a second that anyone would think that going to prison is an easy way to get a qualification. The stigma of having been inside alone would put you at a serious disadvantage for gaining employment.