Chinese Accupuncture

[Briss]

Blythe, your DHs SA is good so I can see why they went with IVF (I'd also want IVF if that was an option cos less invasive) but still considering age/eggs (and the fact that you only had one shot at it) they should have split the eggs into IVF/ICSI groups just to be on the safe side. the eggs are prepared differently so IVF eggs cannot be used for ICSI and vice versa. For ICSI they remove the layer from the egg but once that's done I was told they cannot be fertilised naturally with IVF.

am so very angry with your clinic, they all approach this as if you have endless reserves of funds and health to go through multiple attempts until they figure out what works for you. I'd do some reading and try to find arguments in your favour so they would offer some refund cos something went wrong in the lab and/or stimming was not supervised etc but from my previous cycle I know all too well that they can always justify whatever wrong they've done (I was offered 500 off my next treatment - ridiculous considering we spent over 11K). still 14 eggs! this does not happen often (although I have come across these situations on other boards), something must have happened either during stimming or in the lab. I find it hard to believe that none of these eggs were any good for fertilisation.

Looking at your and your DH's stats I am actually feeling very hopeful for your chances. I cant explain why it has not happened to you yet but I am so sure it can still happen naturally.

It does look like intensive acu/hebrs worked very well for you so maybe you could do a few clomid cycles as you said together with chinese herbs to balance the effect of clomid.

I know what you mean re being in abusive relationship with TTC. I also feel very unfit and afraid to live practically cos it may affect our TTC chances (what chances, right?). I crewed my career completely and ruined relationship with one partner who was very supportive just cos I could not travel abroad (it was in the middle of my IVF and then every TWW is an issue) and did not want to put out extra hours because "stress and being overworked is not good for TTC". Protein diet (+ occasional cakes) makes me put on weight and I am afraid now to do anything to lose it but hate my body at the same time every time I get dressed (once again nothing fits!).

thinking about you and feeling very sad and deflated.

 

[Jazzbird]

So so sorry Blythe. Thinking of you xxx

 

[alison29]

I don't have much to add Blythe because I have never done IVF but I am so angry for you and hope they offer some compensation towards another cycle.

 

[kits]

Hiya ladies!

Blythe, hun, I'm still so sorry you're having to go through this. It's a horrible thing to be screwed over in such a way & without any control. I pray this weekend passes as fast as possible for you so you can get the closure you deserve.

Like Briss said, please do your research so you can be as fully ammo'd as you can be on Monday. The NHS can be so horrible sometimes. Honestly. I can't believe how much they get away with. I know in some aspects they're brilliant but utterly disgraceful in others.

Hang in there, you're made of strong stuff, you'll make it through & I know good things will come.

Loads of

 

[kits]

Briss, how are you doing? I hope you & hubby can find some peace this weekend too. I can't believe the bad luck we're having. I am in no way comparing my situation with any of y'alls, but someone is playing a nasty trick on us.

I genuinely thought June was going to be our month ladies, so many things had been looking better. All I can do is hope this is our last massive hurdle and that better news & tidings come our way with summer.

Thanks Allison & Irish for your support

 

[BBbliss]

Thinking of you Blythe

 

[kits]

Hey.. you know ladies, maybe it's time to get back on track with life & enjoying it. You both say you look in the mirror and don't like what you see, that you've let ttc take over some of your happiness.

Perhaps it's time to start loving yourself again. Taking care or your own health is so important in this journey. I know this is such a struggle, and you've had so many hurdles after another, and another and another.. but it is ok to exercise, it's ok to go on holiday, it's ok to have a few girly drinks. And it most certainly ok to have some sugar! So stop beating yourselves up!

Everything in moderation.

My new acu pretty much told me to stop charting. Not directly but she seriously wants me to just wash the obsession away. I really want to but I think the information I gather is too important. Not sure how to go about it. I agree, I'm tired of obsessing over every symptom, over every temperature & trying to collect as much cm as possible!

She immediately put me on herbs. They are absolutely horrible?! Does anyone else's herbs taste like smoked cigarette buds that have been thrown onto a rainy curb & then nuked? I had no idea that the ideal temp for pregnancy is 37°C, I've been no where near that this cycle She had one quick look at my chart & said there's no way I'm pregnant simply because of the temp. But she said my constant temp fluctuation is my obsession.

May be it is time to let go?

I wrote an entry of my miscarriage. I think I really needed to get off my chest. It's ridiculously long, but it's something I have had lingering in my mind to do. I think all this time I had only just pretended to get closure.

Letting go of the, past time to start anew.

If I won the lottery I'd so share some with you ladies to help you get those little buns in the oven!


SO much hugs & prayers. Please take care!

 

[Blythe]

Briss - i feel i should have insisted on ICSI but i was doped up on pethidine and she was so very positive about it all. She was talking about transferring 3 embryos or 2 blasts and the smile did not leave her face.

Still, it did not work and i have decided against sitting here all weekend trying to construct arguments against them. All i can do is let them know about my issues with the level of care and my feeling about letting me stim for too long. actually here is my diary entry for what was my trigger day.....

"

09/06/14 [CD14]
TRIGGER SHOT DAY

Side effects: continuing the theme from yesterday really. I feel nothing and I can breath right in with no feeling of anything. I cannot help thinking it is all over. Almost glad I will have the distraction of work. I laid there last night looking at stuff about large follies and that they contain eggs that have gone past their best – by my reckoning loads of my follies will be like that by the time EC takes place. I feel beyond stressed and angry with my clinic.

I had the most vivid dream last night of taking pregnancy tests and seeing very strong positives – it woke me up and then I realised it was a dream and that im nowhere near the stage of taking them.

My boobs feel moldy. They feel hard and uncomfortable. I feel like I have gone past my best before date – post ovulation like!!!!!!

I explained to DH that I needed some words of encouragement to get through this, a back up plan…He said that this is our back up plan which saw me plummet into further despair.​

"

i knew something was amiss. Anyhow, I'm 42 and thats all the come back they need really! i would like to know what issues there specifically were with the eggs and sperm and what this means for us trying naturally. I wish we had more available funds so i could try again but alas i must now focus on something i can change and that is moving out of london.

Briss - i have come up with a new set of supplements for DH. He is about to start cycling to work...he has been putting it off due to sciatica and IVF but it is going to become a big part of his life now. We [well mostly me] have spent far too long putting stuff/life on hold so i cannot tell him no on this one. To try and counter the effects of this he has drastically cut down on booze and will take whatever supplements i put in from of him. What do you think:

well man or other brand multi vit aimed at fertility
Selenium, 200 mcg
Zinc 50 mg
Vitamin C Time Release 1000mg
E-400, 100% Natural Mixed Tocopherols
ubiqionol coq10 100mg

do you think i need to add
L-Carnitine and l-arginine

i might talk to my Chinese doc to see if there is a tablet they can recommend as he won't take the powders. He has been going to acu once a week for his sciatica so hoping it may have positive effects elsewhere.

BBBliss - thank you for your kind words and keeping me in your thoughts i really did not appreciate how destructive this stuff can be. i have been in a weird little IVF bubble, the forums, the youtube IVF girls, the excitement, the terror, the waiting etc etc and i am totally exhausted although feeling a whole lot better today....certainly more rational I am so very sorry for your own loss and hope you are healing.

kits - you are a lovely lady i have had the same advice from my chinese doc but others believe it provides a very useful tool in seeing what might be causing us not to get pregnant. I must confess i felt better when i wasn't charting but then again i have also found it a very helpful tool in getting through the month. The bad things are the days when my temp plummets though and it can really ruin my whole day and then the highs when you see a temp rise.....yes quite exhausting really! I may use it now just around ovulation time to confirm temp shift and them leave it....easier said than done!

All other ladies - thank you so much for your comments. i really have found so much support here and this forum has helped get me through some rubbish periods whilst TTC.

 

[Briss]

Blythe, it's very hard to be insisting on anything at EC including ICSI. When I had my second EC and they told me there was only 2 follicles I was so lost did not know what to do, I got off the table and went back to DH to ask what he thought because the doctors were just no help and no one even offered any alternatives or any advice. they did not even believe me that there was third follicle and did not check the files. looking back they should have suggested turning it into IUI - would save us lots of money and gave us a shot at the best egg that cycle. also the mature egg would grow and get released later that cycle on its own. mess, total mess! so I completely understand how hard it is to make t=any decisions at EC. you just have to trust them and hope for the best.

One question I'd definitely ask your embryologist is whether any sperm penetrated an egg. basically you need more info on reasons for no fertilisation. it's possible that the outer layer of your eggs was just too hard for sperm to penetrate which is common in older eggs. I personally do not think this is your issue but it would be helpful to know whether they found any sperm inside your eggs. and if they did that's in a way positive news cos it means most likely egg quality was an issue cos sperm was absolutely fine and we know they kept you on highest dose of stims for too long. it's positive cos that means you can get pregnant naturally. if no sperm was able to enter the eggs - that's a bit complicated and need further research to find out if this can be fixed naturally.

I know that this cycle was very distressing but tbh I am still very impressed with the number of eggs! I will consider myself lucky if we can get half of your number that's also positive cos it means you have time on your hands to TTC naturally, you've got the reserves.

but something must be stopping you from getting pregnant. it's really strange - good sperm, enough eggs, open tubes, good lining, perfect charts, previous healthy pregnancies, long time TTC - I wonder what's wrong? you had a chemical once so there might be sperm DNA damage. have you considered sperm DNA fragm test? it's rather expensive and your DH's morph is good but I am just thinking out loud here. what about immune issues?

It's possible that IVF meds fixed something and maybe you will be one of those lucky women that get pregnant naturally after a failed IVF

I like your diary, it's very useful to white down your thoughts. makes it clearer to determine what went wrong and when

You do need a back up plan in situations like this and I like yours. your most recent TCM experience was very positive and I think you should stick with it. what about IUI? I know they are not terribly successful but they still give a little push and increase your odds and they are not expensive.

re cycling, before our unfortunate experience with DH's hormones I'd say absolutely no but I am not so sure now. We looked back at DH's SAs over the years and his best results were last year after he had no beer + supps + intensive running regime (10-12 hours several times a week) + he was MUCH slimmer (he is not fat but he has grown a bit of a tummy cos I do not allow his to exercise). I know what they say about cycling and all other exercise but the reality I see is a bit different so if cycling is so important to your DH I's say go for it.

re vitamins, very good list but I think wellman already has about 150 of selenium so if you add 50 that should be sufficient. selenium can be toxic so better not to overdo it. I'd add 500-1000 of both L-Carnitine and l-arginine. It's so great your DH is going for acu and can consider taking herbs.

afm, we had a very bad argument on Friday, one of those terrible arguments we used to have, i just lost it completely. DH refused to take vitamins and I know it's helping to improve things a bit also I feel helpless that the treatment did not work. I cant go through stims knowing his morphology is an issue and it may affect the embroy quality. I raised donor sperm again if he is not taking vitamins, ended up screaming like mad at DH and felt like my brain was about to explode basically most of yesterday I spent at home recovering with terrible headache but at least he reconsidered and is now taking my list of vitamins but he is considering to resume exercising cos he hates his tummy.

 

[Blythe]

Briss - i think anywhere other than Create, then they would have suggested converting to IUI.

thanks for the tip re selenium and i will look to add the l-c and l-a too. we won't be undertaking any diagnostics and i will just see what they say today and hope that it leaves a window of hope re natural conception.

I'm so sorry you had a horrible argument on friday - so many frustrations and i guess it all comes out in the end. I'm glad that your DH has decided in favour of taking the supplements. i would hope that a balanced exercise regime would have benefits when TTC but i know your DH has a tendency towards being obsessive about these things....hopefully he will keep it all in check as he knows you concerns around this matter.

whats next - are you waiting to hear back from NHS re start date?

 

[Briss]

kits, I find it hard to enjoy anything while having this deep sadness somewhere inside. I am smiling when the sun is shining and laughing when something is funny but this is as far as I can go about enjoying life. This time last year I made a decision to lose weight and become my old self. it was very hard but I did it. I did enjoy being slim again but it did not make me happy, not for long anyway.

I am re-reading Zita West's book on IVF and she keeps on saying that people who manage to let go do have better chances at getting pregnant. I so wish I could just let go and live my life but I cant. I need to know I am doing 200% of what's possible and impossible to make it happen, otherwise cant live with myself. I feel this is my major flow – not being able to let go

some people cant get used to charting etc and if that's freaking you out then it might be better for you just to give it a miss. the important thing is to know when you O (at least approximately) and BD around that time. also if your DH's sex drive allows it BD every 3 days is ideal.

When you are pregnant your temps will be around 37 that's true but in TWW it can still be lower than that even when implantation started to happen, so early in the cycle it's hard to say. if your temp is around 37 in TWW you are most likely pregnant (unless you have a cold) but if your temp is lower you cant still be pregnant – no simple answer I am afraid

I would not try and figure pregnancy based on your chart cos your temp is very unstable, it's possible that you take it at different time in the morning or something else affects the reading. It took me a few cycles to get used to temping so my charts started to make sense.

I will definitely read your entry on miscarriage, I think this is a very good idea to keep a diary. I should probably start doing it myself. I did not want to start a journal cos I could never have imagined that it's going to take this long. may as well start now

Blythe, let us know what your clinic says and how they explain what happened. I am still hoping they can offer something, they cant be so heartless. We are due for HSG type of thing this cycle and after that they will tell us if we can have IVf and if funding is available so I guess it's at least 2 more cycles before we can start or go elsewhere.

afm, got a PEAk on CD9 this morning!!! WTF!!!!!!!!!! am I supposed to ovulate on CD10 now and have 23/24 day cycle? things have been bad but not this bad. the only time I ovulated this early was a cycle after I had a lap. why is this happening to me? is it the herbs? I am hoping I can blame this on a cyst cos I really want acu/herbs to work, I want at least something to work!!. I felt I had a cyst at O last cycle which may explain my high etsrogen levels this cycle (cysts are former follicles that just keep on growing and they release estrogen). also it was suspicious that I had such high FSH levels this cycle considering my high estrogen. I just hope it is the cyst messing up with my cycle. so may be it's just a one off bad cycle? it's also possible that my psychotic episode on Friday night threw my cycle off. I should really be careful. My most recent TSH was 2!! which is great and I guess somewhere at the back of my mind that gave me a licence to be emotional (having high TSH really made me stop before going into any emotional spiral cos I know how thyroid is sensitive to emotions)

the worst thing is that I am booked for HSG tomorrow and we cant BD!!! I really could not imagine that I may O so early cos it never happened before. I was actually hoping that we can have the procedure on CD10 and then I O a day or two after so we have time to BD. no BD no hope. I cannot go though a cycle with no hope…

 

[Briss]

ladies, I've found this unbelievably useful comparative table of male supps (https://menfertility.org/male-fertility-supplements-review/#toggle-id-1 click to review the detailed scoresheet). All the main ones are there so you can see and compare the ingredients and doses. I would not pay much attention to their grading system tbh I think this is just marketing for the "number 1" product. All of them require additional stuff to be added cos we definitely need higher doses but I still think wellman conception is a good option cost wise cos it gives you pretty much complete vitamin profile so you just need to add a few things to make it more potent.

 

[kits]

Ladies, I think y'all need some of these herbs I'm taking.. Genuinely feel high, drunk & frisky.

Been giggling at work so much & kept playing silly pranks on my oh this morning.

I'm usually sooo much more miserable than this, feels wierd!

One of the big things I emphasized to my ACU was how depressed I think I am & that is why I think I have lower energy. I do what's required, buy nothing more.

With being away from my family, the pub & other job and just 2 friends that I can't really hang out with (and aren't really broody) I am almost always lonely & sad.

She must've really taken this into consideration as I have been feeling a lot better. It's not constant that's why I think it's definitely the herbs but I'm glad to escape the misery even if for a bit.

I have no idea what they are, she told me we'd go over them on Friday when I go back, but she did say they're too help AF come along & that they provide nourishment. I think they may do harm if I were pregnant though because she kept double checking if I as still getting bfn.

I hope I'm not being too insensitive, I'll reply properly tonight.

Lots of

 

[kits]

I'd check again tomorrow Briss, I strongly believe that our hormones influence so much in our body. It's ridiculous as it's so easy to lose control over them.

I'm really so sorry you're having such a rough patch

Is HSG where they insert dye in an attempt to flush out your ovaries & tubes?

 

[Blythe]

i have returned from from my meeting with the consultant....absolutely none the wiser.

He said i had had a perfect response and that of the 14 eggs 11 were mature and they would have expected to see fertilisation. the only issue may have been poor binding between sperm and egg....no shit sherlock. He said he felt positive about further treatments using ICSI.

i asked whether the eggs could have been over mature [the embryologist had said this was a possibility over the phone] but he said nothing to suggest they were and that me being on stims for that long was perfectly fine. Every instinct in my body says they were over mature....having been doing this for so long i feel quite in tune with my body and feel they left me too long. There was absolutely no possibility from their point of view that this may have been the case. They said it was very rare. One egg may have been penetrated but potentially by 2 sperm as it arrested or something like that.

i asked whether clomid, medicated IUI would help us and he said absolutely not and they way forward was IVF or a best second, trying naturally. I'm not so sure about this as DH's sperm was 42% motile but after washing was 80% motile and still going fairly strong the next day around 65%. surely washed sperm nearer to where it needs to be leads to increased chance of pregnancy.

Briss - it is odd that you talk about letting go...i have been googling that exact phrase for the last 48 hours. its just not something that can be forced...i tried to do that with the fertility yoga/meditation classes i was doing but it did not feel right in my heart.

Your cyst may well be playing around with this cycle....i hope the egg holds on till after the HSG. I sometimes got early LH surges and ovulated about 3 days later. it is indeed horrid doing a cycle with zero hope but sometimes it cannot be avoided. We did not BD at all this cycle but DH relieved himself - i was scared in case i got pregnant naturally [yeah right!] and then got inseminated with twins...i was actually wondering what i would do with triplets or maybe even quads so thought it best to avoid BD.

Kits - it sounds like you are having a great response to those herbs....please remind me, is it powder or tablets you are taking?

 

[Briss]

Blythe, this is really annoying! I sometimes wonder how they can keep a straight face when they say there is no connection between overstimulation and egg quality when there is so much info on this out there! so do I take it that some sperm managed to get inside the eggs but it's just that they failed to fertilise it? this is positive – in a sense that you have chances to get pregnant naturally. I agree that ICSI is the best way forward but failing that I am quite sure clomid/IUI are still improving your chances compared to natural TTC.

I've been thinking about letting go for quite a while, at first the idea completely repulsed me then I started trying to see how it may work for me cos it definitely works for others. I am still no where near the answer because you cant let go of something that is bigger than your own life and I agree it does not feel right in my heart either. but this idea has been around for a while it was even mentioned in Mad Men (my most recent authority on things). a girl cant get an advert right and Draper tells her that she should think very hard about various ideas for the advert and then let go and forget about it for a while and then the answer just comes into her head and all becomes clear. Nice! but then you are not really letting go you are basically cheating cos you can probably just pretend that you forgot all about children and are really happy on your own (the important thing is to be away from families otherwise the truth will come out one way or another)

I feel that O is inevitable, my ovaries are on fire. both of them actually which is unusual

 

[Blythe]

He said only one possibly where it looked . I did not even ask if they had gone near the eggs because my brain is not working properly at the moment. Today is the first day I have been able to walk without pain and severe bloating.

I almost convinced myself to do IVF again when I left but then I thought if they don't acknowledge that I may have been over stimmed then I run the risk of them doing it again.

Ps. I loved that comparative chart of vits....very good. I have just received the box of vits for DH although we will have a break from them for a week or two. I will go back for ACU and continue with herbs for another 3 months I think then re assess.

Please report back on hsg.

 

[Briss]

Blythe, if you decide to do IVF again definitely go for a different clinic (unless these guys offer a really good financial incentive) and most certainly ICSI, still you have time to think about it while you are getting your body back into shape. if you are considering another IVF I'd not do clomid cos it will exhaust your body's reserves, just the herbs and acu + vitamins diet and the rest of it. As I said your stats and your response (14 eggs!!!) are so good that you can relax at the moment and see if you feel like doing IVf later this year or next year. I feel very positive for you (although very annoyed with your clinic). also, we could always go to Germany 1,500 euros for a natural IVF/ICSI! I am thinking of contacting Dovkav's clinic.

Begging DH to go with me tomorrow cos I really hate these procedures. apparently they are not going to look at my tubes, just the uterus and cervix for ET.

I was actually putting together my own comparative chart of vits for men but it's so time consuming that at some point I just gave up. so I was really pleased to discover this table. also a few new names for male vits, but still I am sticking to wellmen and fertilaid as a base

 

[Blythe]

i wonder if you can learn to let go or if you just eventually reach a place where you make peace with it all and then it is a natural progression from there. I'm thinking it is not something that can be pushed.

Briss - i wonder what the deal is with a natural round of IVF in Germany. I suppose a trip is necessary for consult/day 3 tests/scans etc and then another for maybe 4/5 days for ER/ET. Factoring in planes and accommodation i wonder how much it would all be.....im thinking about 2.5K all in.

 

[Briss]

this cycle is totally out of order, my ovaries (left in particular) are so painful I can barely walk. dreading the procedure tomorrow. what if I am developing another cyst or something? OKP was negative this evening which gives me hope but ovarian pain is just too indicative of approaching O. the annoying thing is that I am still spotting! looks like if I do not spot before AF i spot after.

I leant to ignore what my "TTC" friends are saying about their "hard times" cos none of them have any idea what LTTTC is like and I feel i have no right to be bringing them up to speed with the reality cos most will get pregnant tomorrow. I mean how are we supposed to let go when you are constantly reminded of what normality is.

unless I have at least one healthy child I find it hard to imagine how I can ever reach a place where I make peace with it all. I can move on only when I exhausted everything or reached menopause by which time letting go serves no useful purpose. I think we need to figure out how to let go before it's too late.

as for Germany they can talk to you via skype and you do not need to have 3 day bloods etc, you just come a couple of days before EC, then stay for ET 2 days later and off you go. I noticed that dovkav's cycles were not really supervised, she showed up just before O for the first scan. I am thinking that a week or 10 day holiday in Germany would be perfect for that. I'd add 1,000 for both to the price for travels/hotels