Gay Marriage

[AppleBlossom]

I've heard that homophobia is more common in the US too, I think in general, the UK is fairly accepting of LGBT. I will never understand homophobia

 

[nevernormal]

Ladies... I'm going to bring myself into this debate as so far the only one who is opposed to gay marriage. I know this puts me at risk of being ridiculed/shunned/hated on here, but this is a debate forum, and if I can respectfully disagree with your views, I hope you can respectfully disagree with mine!

I am against gay marriage because I am against the sexual acts involved in homosexuality. I am a Christian, and practiced homosexuality is a sin against God according to His Word. However, it's also wrong for a man and a woman to have sex before they are married, even though it's "straight". I don't think homosexuality is any worse than any other sin, and I am not "homophobic" (still trying to figure out what that's supposed to mean, since "phobic" implies fear...). Marriage/family was instituted by God though, and He did it with a man and a woman.

The town that I am living in is trying to pass an act that would mean, among other things, that landlords could not refuse a renter on the grounds of his or her sexuality. I know many people who were against the act, and though I don't know all of the details of that specific act I did tell them that, as Christians, we shouldn't be hateful and discriminatory. If a Christian was only going to rent to other Christians, I would be okay with it. But if they are going to rent to someone else who is not a true Christian, but then not rent to a homosexual that is wrong.

That being said, I really can't stand laws that are giving rights to some people, but effectively taking away the rights of others. In the situation mentioned above you are taking away rights from landlords. Like another poster said in regards to religions, it shouldn't be forced on someone to agree with it when they really don't.

As far as the legal parts:
Honestly, I don't understand why someone couldn't put their best friend or the homeless man down the street on their insurance if they are willing to pay the premiums. You should be able to sign a paper to let someone visit you in the hospital, or make life and death decisions for you if you trust them that much.

Like I said earlier, I hope you can respectfully disagree with my views, and that this doesn't create a huge argument or a lot of bad feelings. If anyone on here ever sees me treating one of the lesbian women on here wrongly, please point it out. It does make me uncomfortable sometimes to give them advice, just as it makes me uncomfortable to give the unmarried women who are TTC advice, as I don't always know how to walk the line between encouragement in their emotional struggles and condoning their actions.

 

[Sarahkka]

nevernormal - I appreciate that you are trying to be part of the discussion and I think you expressed your views very respectfully.
Here is what I would reply to you (and again, this is meant in a tone of respectful discussion, not aggressive debate):
the Bible also has passages that condone slavery. Read back through your post and replace every "gay", "lesbian", "homosexual" with the words "black" or hispanic" or "native". Still comfortable with how it reads?

 

[Nibblenic]

Ooooh some one who disagrees! Yay, I have questions!

From what I can gather you apply your views to other people who do not share them? Is that right?
So for example you would disagree with sex out of wedlock? Even if that couple are not Christian or another religion, so then it isnt against their beliefs but yours?

I am less familiar with Christian groups in the USA but are you from one which seeks to actively convert more followers to your certain strain of religion?

Do you believe that homosexuality is something that can or needs to be cured/repented/ seen as something to repress?

Im hoping you will answer. After all is isnt a debate until someone doesnt agree!
I have a real interest in regards to Christianity and its views on homosexuality. After all if it wasnt for the Bible saying its wrong (and my Dads family being strong practicing Christians) I wouldnt be alive, as my Dad would never have felt he had to marry my mother.

 

[AppleBlossom]

^^ Same here (a bit) I wouldn't have my daughter if homophobia was so "taboo" and "frowned upon" in the Catholic and general world as FOB would probably not have forced himself to be with women.

To the poster who disagrees, do you disagree with the act of homosexuality (man laying with another man etc) through a religious perspective only or are you homophobic personally as well? Sorry if you already answered that in your OP

 

[Lightworker]

nevernormal - I appreciate that you are trying to be part of the discussion and I think you expressed your views very respectfully.
Here is what I would reply to you (and again, this is meant in a tone of respectful discussion, not aggressive debate):
the Bible also has passages that condone slavery. Read back through your post and replace every "gay", "lesbian", "homosexual" with the words "black" or hispanic" or "native". Still comfortable with how it reads?

OT do you know which verses condone slavery?

 

[Lightworker]

Ladies... I'm going to bring myself into this debate as so far the only one who is opposed to gay marriage. I know this puts me at risk of being ridiculed/shunned/hated on here, but this is a debate forum, and if I can respectfully disagree with your views, I hope you can respectfully disagree with mine!

I am against gay marriage because I am against the sexual acts involved in homosexuality. I am a Christian, and practiced homosexuality is a sin against God according to His Word. However, it's also wrong for a man and a woman to have sex before they are married, even though it's "straight". I don't think homosexuality is any worse than any other sin, and I am not "homophobic" (still trying to figure out what that's supposed to mean, since "phobic" implies fear...). Marriage/family was instituted by God though, and He did it with a man and a woman.

The town that I am living in is trying to pass an act that would mean, among other things, that landlords could not refuse a renter on the grounds of his or her sexuality. I know many people who were against the act, and though I don't know all of the details of that specific act I did tell them that, as Christians, we shouldn't be hateful and discriminatory. If a Christian was only going to rent to other Christians, I would be okay with it. But if they are going to rent to someone else who is not a true Christian, but then not rent to a homosexual that is wrong.

That being said, I really can't stand laws that are giving rights to some people, but effectively taking away the rights of others. In the situation mentioned above you are taking away rights from landlords. Like another poster said in regards to religions, it shouldn't be forced on someone to agree with it when they really don't.

As far as the legal parts:
Honestly, I don't understand why someone couldn't put their best friend or the homeless man down the street on their insurance if they are willing to pay the premiums. You should be able to sign a paper to let someone visit you in the hospital, or make life and death decisions for you if you trust them that much.

Like I said earlier, I hope you can respectfully disagree with my views, and that this doesn't create a huge argument or a lot of bad feelings. If anyone on here ever sees me treating one of the lesbian women on here wrongly, please point it out. It does make me uncomfortable sometimes to give them advice, just as it makes me uncomfortable to give the unmarried women who are TTC advice, as I don't always know how to walk the line between encouragement in their emotional struggles and condoning their actions.

I thought that was written very respectfully. I am very pleased you aired your opinion as sometimes I know on this forum some people hold back because of the potential negative reaction (me included). So well done. x

 

[freckleonear]

Another one who disagrees here, I guess debates wouldn't be very interesting if we all had exactly the same views. I'm a Christian and believe that the Bible teaches that homosexuality is a sin. To be honest it doesn't really make any difference if the sin is homosexual acts or telling lies, it only takes one sin to make someone a sinner so we've all fallen short of God's standards. The Bible offers salvation and the message to Christians is to hate the sin but love the sinner.

Firstly let me say that I do agree that homosexuals should have the same legal rights as any other citizen. In the UK, same sex couples already have all the rights of marriage in civil partnerships. What I disagree with is redefining the word "marriage". The definition of marriage is the union of one man and one woman for life, with one of the main purposes being the procreation and nurture of children. I simply don't agree with changing the definition of something that's been a cornerstone of society for hundreds and thousands of years. Broadening the definition makes it weaker. I think it would be preferable to stick with existing law and refer to same-sex relationships as civil partnerships or even invent a new term for it, rather than the potentially ridiculous situation of no longer having a word to describe the traditional definition of marriage.

As a previous posted touched upon, I'm also against laws that take away rights from someone else. For example, proposed laws that would make it illegal for churches to refuse to employ someone on the grounds of their sexuality.

It saddens me that Christians are often labelled as homophobic. Just because we disagree with something doesn't mean that we treat people with hatred or discrimination. I hope that true Christians show love to everyone around them, regardless of their sexuality, and that others respect our right to stand up for our beliefs.

 

[ShanandBoc]

The bible doesnt condone slavery in the context we know it today. It was not the opressive knid of slavery that has been common in many lands throughout the ages.

Lets clear this misconception up

This is the bibles definition of a 'slave'...... Leviticus 25:39,40 says "“‘And in case your brother grows poor alongside you and he has to sell himself to you, you must not use him as a worker in slavish service. *He should prove to be with you like a hired laborer, like a settler" So this was a loving provision to care for Israels poorest at the time.

Another biblical example was in the context of what we would now view as community service for a law breaker. Exodus 22:3 explains that a person found guilty of stealing who was unable to make full restitution according to the law could be sold as a slave (see above scripture in Leviticus) to work until he paid off his debt, then he could go free.

Cruel and abusive slavery was not allowed and was forbidden, mistreatment of a 'slave' meant punishment for his master.

It was meant to function as a brotherhood in which ideally there was no poor, no exploitation of widows, orpans etc, it was practiced in a loving, humane manner

It must be considered in context as illustrated above. The bible clearly states that God deplores the mistreatment of humans. For those that know the bible and the time in history that slavery is mentioned, its not the cruel and abusive slavery that is envisioned by most today.

I just wanted to clear that up as another misconception about the bible but if u actually study it, its something very different.

Where as homosexuality is clearly pinpointed as a gross sin against God, unnatural and a desire that can be controlled (according to the bible), just like fornication and adultery are desires that can be controlled, these are grouped in together in the bible as gross sins, along with others - just pointing out what the bible says, im not trying to belittle or disrespect anyone

A christian who adheres to Gods view on this is not homophobic. They care how God feels, respect that he knows whats best for us in the long run and that he created us to be male and female. They view it as God does. They love everyone but they have gods view on it that the act of homosexuality is unacceptable.

ETA - I love and have respect for every person but that doesnt mean i am going to agree with everything they do.

 

[Lightworker]

The bible doesnt condone slavery in the context we know it today. It was not the opressive knid of slavery that has been common in many lands throughout the ages.

Lets clear this misconception up

This is the bibles definition of a 'slave'...... Leviticus 25:39,40 says "“‘And in case your brother grows poor alongside you and he has to sell himself to you, you must not use him as a worker in slavish service. *He should prove to be with you like a hired laborer, like a settler" So this was a loving provision to care for Israels poorest at the time.

Another biblical example was in the context of what we would now view as community service for a law breaker. Exodus 22:3 explains that a person found guilty of stealing who was unable to make full restitution according to the law could be sold as a slave (see above scripture in Leviticus) to work until he paid off his debt, then he could go free.

Cruel and abusive slavery was not allowed and was forbidden, mistreatment of a 'slave' meant punishment for his master.

It was meant to function as a brotherhood in which ideally there was no poor, no exploitation of widows, orpans etc, it was practiced in a loving, humane manner

It must be considered in context as illustrated above. The bible clearly states that God deplores the mistreatment of humans. For those that know the bible and the time in history that slavery is mentioned, its not the cruel and abusive slavery that is envisioned by most today.

I just wanted to clear that up as another misconception about the bible but if u actually study it, its something very different.

Where as homosexuality is clearly pinpointed as a gross sin against God, unnatural and a desire that can be controlled (according to the bible), just like fornication and adultery are desires that can be controlled, these are grouped in together in the bible as gross sins, along with others - just pointing out what the bible says, im not trying to belittle or disrespect anyone

A christian who adheres to Gods view on this is not homophobic. They care how God feels, respect that he knows whats best for us in the long run and that he created us to be male and female. They view it as God does. They love everyone but they have gods view on it that the act of homosexuality is unacceptable.

ETA - I love and have respect for every person but that doesnt mean i am going to agree with everything they do.

Thanks for that slavery clarification. I do know that Marxists argued that the slave owners of America's southern states used the Bible to justify their actions, but I could never find which verses.

X

 

[Lightworker]

In any case, whatever the current situation is in the West regarding LGBT rights, it is very advanced compared to other societies. In some African countries, homosexuality is a serious criminal offence, so at least it shows some progress has been made, from a human rights point of view.

 

[nevernormal]

Sarahkka: There are a few issues in your argument. First, replacing "gay", "lesbian", and "homosexual" with "black", "hispanic", or "native" is not logical. When I say that homosexuality is a sin, I'm referring to specific acts that are a result of giving into temptation. Race is something that you are born with, and have no control over. It is not an action, thought, or desire. Scripture indicates that, in regards to race or social status, God views all people as the same. I would refer you to Acts 17:26 and Job 31:13-15. These are just a two examples, but I believe it is evident throughout Scripture.

Secondly, God's Word does not condone slavery, at least not in the modern sense of the word. When most people today think of slavery (including myself), we think of slavery in the modern sense of the word. We think of New-World/Western slavery, and Biblical slavery was nothing of the sort. In the Old Testament, slavery was primarily something that a person entered into voluntarily, but there were many laws regarding treatment of slaves to protect them. Even non-Jewish cultures had a different definition of slavery than what you'll find today. In the New Testament, slavery among Christians looked more like the Roman model of slavery, and Paul not only encouraged a respectful slave/master relationship, but also encouraged voluntary manumission of slaves.

Really I could write pages about the subject, but thankfully someone has already done that . If you're interested (these are quite lengthy):

Slavery in the Old Testament and Ancient Near East vs. New World Slavery

Slavery in the New Testament vs. Roman Empire's version of slavery vs. New World Slavery

Another interesting thing to note: I realize you're in Canada, and I don't know what the laws are there, but in the U.S.A., slavery is still legal. Under the Thirteenth Amendment, someone can be punished to slavery for an unspecified crime. Obviously this doesn't happen as far as I know, and if it did, it could not be carried out as "cruel and unusual punishment," so the slave would still have to be treated fairly.

Nibblenic: I'm not sure exactly what you mean by applying my views to other people, but I do believe that sin is sin, no matter who commits it or what they believe. That being said, I would not expect a non-Christian to try to live by God's standards, because they are not His children and are still under the bondage of sin. And no matter what sin someone has committed, or for how long, God is willing to accept any and all who will repent and come follow Him.

As for trying to convert more followers to our certain "strain" of religion? I would disagree with that particular description of it. We do try to show Jesus Christ and draw others into a personal relationship with Him, but only the Holy Spirit can convict them to turn from the path that leads to destruction. But no, I wouldn't say we want them to come to our "strain" of belief. We would like all, as I said, to come to a personal knowledge of the Saviour, and learn and study the Scripture for themselves and let the Holy Spirit guide them to what is Biblical. Humans are fallible, as evidenced by the many "interpretations" of the Bible. If someone hangs on to my every word and believes everything I say without examining God's Word for themselves, they are likely to be led astray eventually.

I believe that homosexuality can be repented of and turned away from, and because it is sin, there is also a need for this, especially from those who profess to be Christians. Again, I do not expect non-Christians to follow God's commandments, and until they turn to Him I doubt a non-Christian homosexual would be able to turn away from it. I know that the desires and temptations are real (just as with other sins), and it's impossible to escape sin on your own merit.

For more information on that issue, I would point you to Exodus International. I know that some of their leadership have come out of homosexuality to a redemptive knowledge of Christ. I'll refrain from saying that I agree with them 100% on everything, as I haven't researched them since first finding out about them through a college class about 5 years ago. But I do know that they would be a good resource on the topic of repentance from homosexuality.

AppleBlossom: I disagree with it on both levels. My faith is an integral part of who I am, and if I started picking and choosing what to believe from the Bible just because I don't like something or am uncomfortable with something, then I am compromising my witness as a Christian and not truly trying to glorify God.


To All: Thank you for letting me join in this debate. I'm sorry if I'm a little verbose, but I know that I have a tendency to be very frank and end up hurting people without realizing it, so especially on touchy subjects such as this one it's difficult to state the truths I believe in while not starting a war lol. In the town where I live it seems like everyone thinks you have to be hateful to whoever is on the other side of the issue, but that the other side should be nice to them. This isn't right from a Christian standpoint (for those who are against), and not logical from the pro-homosexual standpoint (I don't understand why I have to accept everyone else's viewpoints, but they can trash mine all the time! Talk about double standards!)

I look forward to your replies and further questions and debates about this issue.

 

[AppleBlossom]

Although I don't understand homophobia as I'm non-religious, I think you put it quite respectfully. I know there is at least one religious movement in US that are very anti-gay, I have seen a few things about them now and the things they say/do are downright disgusting and I hope and think I am right in assuming that they are a very small minority who take their beliefs to an extreme.

I personally believe that homosexuality IS something you are born with and have no control over. I think I am fairly comfortable in saying that I am "bisexual", it's not because I just decided one day, I just always have been for as long as I can remember, iykwim? So to me, it is the same as race, you are born with it and it's not something you choose. Of course, unlike race you can choose not to act on your homosexual feelings. But I don't think it's fair that people should have to lie about who they are to be accepted by society. As I say, I don't believe in God for a large number of reasons which are unnecessary to go into BUT if there was a God and he was all-knowing/loving/forgiving then I can't get my head around sin. Because surely if he was all-loving and all-forgiving, living in sin would be irrelevant. So therefore homosexuality, although written in the bible as a sin, it isn't when it counts.

If you could clear that up for me though, I'd be grateful. I don't know a lot about the Bible and it's scriptures as it isn't something I follow so I could have totally the wrong end of the stick

 

[Tegans Mama]

I understand that people see being gay as a sin, but I still find it quite offensive to see it written out, however well it's written.

TO those of you who say you see homosexuality as a sin but you still "love all people", how can that be possible? I don't understand how you could disagree so strongly with the foundation of a persons life but still have respect for them.

It also kind of annoys me that because I share my life with a woman, I'm put into the same category as a thief or an adulterer.

 

[AppleBlossom]

I understand that people see being gay as a sin, but I still find it quite offensive to see it written out, however well it's written.

TO those of you who say you see homosexuality as a sin but you still "love all people", how can that be possible? I don't understand how you could disagree so strongly with the foundation of a persons life but still have respect for them.

It also kind of annoys me that because I share my life with a woman, I'm put into the same category as a thief or an adulterer.

That's kind of what I was getting at only I was a little bit long winded!

 

[freckleonear]

The Bible says that all have sinned. So if sin and love were mutually exclusive then we wouldn't love anyone at all.

 

[Mum2b_Claire]

I understand that people see being gay as a sin, but I still find it quite offensive to see it written out, however well it's written.

TO those of you who say you see homosexuality as a sin but you still "love all people", how can that be possible? I don't understand how you could disagree so strongly with the foundation of a persons life but still have respect for them.

It also kind of annoys me that because I share my life with a woman, I'm put into the same category as a thief or an adulterer.

I know, this is what gets me, although it's not me it's my mum, I stil find it very offensive no matter why somebody chooses to believe this.

 

[Tegans Mama]

The Bible says that all have sinned. So if sin and love were mutually exclusive then we wouldn't love anyone at all.

But all the other sins you mentioned are morally wrong or illegal.

P.S someone telling me that my life is morally wrong is probably the most insulting thing I could ever be told, so if you were going to reply with that, please, don't.

I honestly find the views expressed by the people with opposing views on this thread so disrespectful. I don't understand why people feel they have the right to discuss whether gay marriage is right or wrong - it's like me and my gay friends starting a thread about whether or not straight marriage is acceptable and not expecting a backlash.

 

[Wantingbbbump]

I feel that everyone should have the same rights!! That being said I don't understand gay marriage. How can you ask for something that is a union that is between a man, a woman and GOD? I feel that it's 100% okay to love whoever you want, man, woman or both. I feel it should be called a union and not a marriage. Why would you want to have something that has to do with god but not believe in him or live by his word? I have voted against gay marriage and I will do so until it's called a union. I also have no problem with gays and I have friends/family that are gay and I love them so much. I am going to a gay union in July and I am taking my kids. I want to teach them to love and respect everyone for who they are as a person, My oldest daughter spends a lot of time with this same sex couple. I do not feel they will go to hell because of who they love/sleep with. Look at Ellen..she does so much good that to me there is NO WAY she is going to hell. Every body sins in one way or another and anyone that will say they don't ever sin well they are sinning by saying that. I really hope that everyone gets the same rights and this can be put to rest. I hope that my post doesn't upset anyone or make them hate/disrespect me because of my views.

 

[freckleonear]

The Bible says that all have sinned. So if sin and love were mutually exclusive then we wouldn't love anyone at all.

But all the other sins you mentioned are morally wrong or illegal.

P.S someone telling me that my life is morally wrong is probably the most insulting thing I could ever be told, so if you were going to reply with that, please, don't.

I honestly find the views expressed by the people with opposing views on this thread so disrespectful. I don't understand why people feel they have the right to discuss whether gay marriage is right or wrong - it's like me and my gay friends starting a thread about whether or not straight marriage is acceptable and not expecting a backlash.

Okay, compare it to someone not loving God as they should then. According to the Bible that's a sin, but not one that is legally/morally recognised as such in our society. The point I was trying to make is that the Bible does not put homosexuals in the same category as thieves or adulterers, it merely puts them in the same category as everyone else. No better, no worse.

I can see why you would be upset by those who don't agree with you, which is why I was very hesitant about answering the original question, but at the same time I believe in the freedom to express my beliefs.