Gay Marriage

[Tegans Mama]

The Bible says that all have sinned. So if sin and love were mutually exclusive then we wouldn't love anyone at all.

But all the other sins you mentioned are morally wrong or illegal.

P.S someone telling me that my life is morally wrong is probably the most insulting thing I could ever be told, so if you were going to reply with that, please, don't.

I honestly find the views expressed by the people with opposing views on this thread so disrespectful. I don't understand why people feel they have the right to discuss whether gay marriage is right or wrong - it's like me and my gay friends starting a thread about whether or not straight marriage is acceptable and not expecting a backlash.

Okay, compare it to someone not loving God as they should then. According to the Bible that's a sin, but not one that is legally/morally recognised as such in our society. The point I was trying to make is that the Bible does not put homosexuals in the same category as thieves or adulterers, it merely puts them in the same category as everyone else. No better, no worse.

I can see why you would be upset by those who don't agree with you, which is why I was very hesitant about answering the original question, but at the same time I believe in the freedom to express my beliefs.

Honestly I believe you SHOULD have the freedom to express your beliefs too, and it does make me angry that your beliefs upset me. I know I should be self assured enough to take your beliefs with a pinch of salt, but I'm not. I need to harden up For some reason I (and a lot of other gay people) presume that anyone who is religious, hates gays, and I hate the thought that there are people out there who could hate me, without knowing me, for something so simple.

I also understand that from a Christian/Jewish/Muslim perspective, a gay couple getting "married" is wrong. I say I'm married, I call it our wedding etc, but I know that it's not, we're not married in the eyes of G-d. I have/had a lot of internal battles with myself before deciding it was more important to me to be happy, and hoping my religious catches up with me one day.

 

[Nibblenic]

It also kind of annoys me that because I share my life with a woman, I'm put into the same category as a thief or an adulterer.

Hey I am an adulterer! What ya getting at!

Moving on!

Sorry I don't know if 'strain' was the right word but what I mean was obviously Christian is broken down into different parts such are Christian/Catholic/Methodist/Born again....etc Some are more 'In your face' than others.

So do you think if a individual who is homosexual marries and lives with the opposite sex thats good? Or is that lieing and being false?
Would God be happier with someone living a unhappy life which was infact a lie, going against who they are (I like appleblossom and many others think your gender preference is not a choice)

I also dont think you can pick and choose the bits of religion you like. Would you support a change in the Bible that removed homosexuality being a sin? As obviously there are many 'versions' of the Bible and Christianity. Should we be looking into moving religion more with the times for the good of society as it stands?

 

[Tegans Mama]

It also kind of annoys me that because I share my life with a woman, I'm put into the same category as a thief or an adulterer.

Hey I am an adulterer! What ya getting at!

Moving on!

Sorry I don't know if 'strain' was the right word but what I mean was obviously Christian is broken down into different parts such are Christian/Catholic/Methodist/Born again....etc Some are more 'In your face' than others.

So do you think if a individual who is homosexual marries and lives with the opposite sex thats good? Or is that lieing and being false?
Would God be happier with someone living a unhappy life which was infact a lie, going against who they are (I like appleblossom and many others think your gender preference is not a choice)

I also dont think you can pick and choose the bits of religion you like. Would you support a change in the Bible that removed homosexuality being a sin? As obviously there are many 'versions' of the Bible and Christianity. Should we be looking into moving religion more with the times for the good of society as it stands?

I was just using the sins someone quoted as an example

But I would also like to know the answers to your questions. As I mentioned before, I'd love to embrace my religion and live a Kosher life, but until my religion embraces my sexuality, and that of many other gay Jews around the world, I feel like I can't. I feel like it's sort of all or nothing, and I kind of suspect some Christians feel similarly, and would be outraged if homosexuality was no longer a sin.

 

[Wantingbbbump]

The Bible says that all have sinned. So if sin and love were mutually exclusive then we wouldn't love anyone at all.

But all the other sins you mentioned are morally wrong or illegal.

P.S someone telling me that my life is morally wrong is probably the most insulting thing I could ever be told, so if you were going to reply with that, please, don't.

I honestly find the views expressed by the people with opposing views on this thread so disrespectful. I don't understand why people feel they have the right to discuss whether gay marriage is right or wrong - it's like me and my gay friends starting a thread about whether or not straight marriage is acceptable and not expecting a backlash.

Okay, compare it to someone not loving God as they should then. According to the Bible that's a sin, but not one that is legally/morally recognised as such in our society. The point I was trying to make is that the Bible does not put homosexuals in the same category as thieves or adulterers, it merely puts them in the same category as everyone else. No better, no worse.

I can see why you would be upset by those who don't agree with you, which is why I was very hesitant about answering the original question, but at the same time I believe in the freedom to express my beliefs.

Honestly I believe you SHOULD have the freedom to express your beliefs too, and it does make me angry that your beliefs upset me. I know I should be self assured enough to take your beliefs with a pinch of salt, but I'm not. I need to harden up For some reason I (and a lot of other gay people) presume that anyone who is religious, hates gays, and I hate the thought that there are people out there who could hate me, without knowing me, for something so simple.

I also understand that from a Christian/Jewish/Muslim perspective, a gay couple getting "married" is wrong. I say I'm married, I call it our wedding etc, but I know that it's not, we're not married in the eyes of G-d. I have/had a lot of internal battles with myself before deciding it was more important to me to be happy, and hoping my religious catches up with me one day.

I don't think that religion is ever going to agree with your views because we go with what it tells us in the bible. That being said I know that I am going to get a ton of backlash in my church if they ever find out that I am pregnant from using donor sperm and not only that the sperm is from my step dad that has raised me my whole life. If any person hates you because of being gay then they aren't a true christian because we are taught not to hate and not to judge because judgement is only gods right. A ton of people will feel like I have sinned because of this baby, they will judge me and my child but the fact of the matter is only god has the choice of when a baby is born. It's a blessing from god. I am so sorry that your judged based on your life choice and not by who you are as a person. Just because I won't judge your lifestyle doesn't mean that I have to agree with it either, just as others won't agree with mine and thats okay.

 

[Ramen]

You would have a point if and only if there was nothing more to marriage than a relationship with God. As an Atheist I don't want to get married to strengthen my relationship with God. I want to get married so I can use the family medical leave act to take care of OH if he's ill, so we can file our taxes together, so that if I die before him he'll receive my social security benefits and there will be no contestment by anyone that he receive my assets. I want him to have power of attorney that can't be contested by my family and spousal visiting privileges at any hospital I'm admitted to. These are a few of the over 1100 legal benefits of marriage in the USA. Civil unions, however, do not receive federal benefits such as FMLA, joint taxes, survivor benefits etc because of the defense of marriage act. What I'm saying is that you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you really wanted to keep marriage pure you'd lobby for the government to take out all legal incentives to be married, because so long as it is legally beneficial to a couple to be married continuing to oppose gay marriage is a violation of civil rights because you're denying rights to them that other couples who would otherwise not be married such as Atheists and infertile couples have on no other basis other than being heterosexual rather than the pureness of their religious convictions. Every argument against gay marriage is the same argument that was used against inter racial marriage. Thankfully we no longer teach our children that Native Americans are the descendants of Cain and that there is a separate heaven for non whites so maybe we can one day move past this idea too.

 

[princess_bump]

For me, when two people love each, then that's that really. there should be no question as to weather they should be 'allowed' to get married, when me and my husband got married last year it wasn't questioned if it could be allowed, so why would if have been if i was marrying another woman?? i find it so very sad that religion takes this view point really, especially after listening to Lea with regards to her own religious beliefs.

i would describe myself as atheist, of course i respect other's religious beliefs and it's something i've studied in some depth, but for me, i would say i'm quite anti-religion and in some way's take a marxist view of it.

for me, love can't be defined, it's how you feel, and i struggle to comprehend really why anyone would see two people in love of the same sex, as wrong.

 

[Wantingbbbump]

You would have a point if and only if there was nothing more to marriage than a relationship with God. As an Atheist I don't want to get married to strengthen my relationship with God. I want to get married so I can use the family medical leave act to take care of OH if he's ill, so we can file our taxes together, so that if I die before him he'll receive my social security benefits and there will be no contestment by anyone that he receive my assets. I want him to have power of attorney that can't be contested by my family and spousal visiting privileges at any hospital I'm admitted to. These are a few of the over 1100 legal benefits of marriage in the USA. Civil unions, however, do not receive federal benefits such as FMLA, joint taxes, survivor benefits etc because of the defense of marriage act. What I'm saying is that you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you really wanted to keep marriage pure you'd lobby for the government to take out all legal incentives to be married, because so long as it is legally beneficial to a couple to be married continuing to oppose gay marriage is a violation of civil rights because you're denying rights to them that other couples who would otherwise not be married such as Atheists and infertile couples have on no other basis other than being heterosexual rather than the pureness of their religious convictions. Every argument against gay marriage is the same argument that was used against inter racial marriage. Thankfully we no longer teach our children that Native Americans are the descendants of Cain and that there is a separate heaven for non whites so maybe we can one day move past this idea too.

The law getting involved into marriage is what has messed up the meaning of marriage. Back in biblical days they didn't turn any paperwork in to be counted as "married". I have debated this fact for years now. I really think that they should bring common law marriage back and give the same rights to everyone that has been together for a certain amount of time. Even if gays are allowed to have a union that doesn't mean that everyone will have the same rights as married couples do. I don't ever want to see marriage defiled under it's meaning. 1 man 1 woman and a promise made with god. But like I have said many times before everyone should have the same rights no matter who they are or who they love. Infertile couples have nothing to do with marriage and as someone that has battled with it I am offended that you would even bring that up. It's not one in the same. I know I will be judged by how I got pregnant and who the father is but I also know that it has nothing to do with marriage, being gay or not or if you believe in god.

 

[Nibblenic]

It also kind of annoys me that because I share my life with a woman, I'm put into the same category as a thief or an adulterer.

Hey I am an adulterer! What ya getting at!

Moving on!

Sorry I don't know if 'strain' was the right word but what I mean was obviously Christian is broken down into different parts such are Christian/Catholic/Methodist/Born again....etc Some are more 'In your face' than others.

So do you think if a individual who is homosexual marries and lives with the opposite sex thats good? Or is that lieing and being false?
Would God be happier with someone living a unhappy life which was infact a lie, going against who they are (I like appleblossom and many others think your gender preference is not a choice)

I also dont think you can pick and choose the bits of religion you like. Would you support a change in the Bible that removed homosexuality being a sin? As obviously there are many 'versions' of the Bible and Christianity. Should we be looking into moving religion more with the times for the good of society as it stands?

I was just using the sins someone quoted as an example

But I would also like to know the answers to your questions. As I mentioned before, I'd love to embrace my religion and live a Kosher life, but until my religion embraces my sexuality, and that of many other gay Jews around the world, I feel like I can't. I feel like it's sort of all or nothing, and I kind of suspect some Christians feel similarly, and would be outraged if homosexuality was no longer a sin.

See I think there have been massive turns in Christianity such as woman Vicars. The endorsement of contraception. Marriage of people who have been divorced in churches. Maybe it just needs more time........ Lets face it Homosexuals have only had equal rights for a nanosecond compared to things like rights for women. Even then its only certain strains of the Christian faiths which have done the above

 

[Ramen]

The law getting involved into marriage is what has messed up the meaning of marriage. Back in biblical days they didn't turn any paperwork in to be counted as "married". I have debated this fact for years now. I really think that they should bring common law marriage back and give the same rights to everyone that has been together for a certain amount of time. Even if gays are allowed to have a union that doesn't mean that everyone will have the same rights as married couples do. I don't ever want to see marriage defiled under it's meaning. 1 man 1 woman and a promise made with god. But like I have said many times before everyone should have the same rights no matter who they are or who they love. Infertile couples have nothing to do with marriage and as someone that has battled with it I am offended that you would even bring that up. It's not one in the same. I know I will be judged by how I got pregnant and who the father is but I also know that it has nothing to do with marriage, being gay or not or if you believe in god.

So really we're just debating semantics. I would have no problem with civil unions if they were equal to a marriage license. They are not currently. I don't think anyone cares what it's called so long as it's equal.

I bring infertility up because it's relevant to this debate and don't see why you're offended to be honest. Impotence is grounds for annulment in the Catholic church, and infertility is grounds for annulment as well provided you can prove your spouse had knowledge of their infertility prior marriage. Supporters of prop 8 and similar legislation say gay unions should not have the same rights as other legally joined couples because they cannot produce children. I repeat you cannot have your cake and eat it too. If you want to argue that marriage is a relationship with god remove all legal incentives and strip me of my ability to marry. If you want to argue that gay unions are invalid because they cannot produce children then unfortunately that will affect those who are infertile or marrying later in life past menopause.

 

[Lightworker]

I understand that people see being gay as a sin, but I still find it quite offensive to see it written out, however well it's written.

TO those of you who say you see homosexuality as a sin but you still "love all people", how can that be possible? I don't understand how you could disagree so strongly with the foundation of a persons life but still have respect for them.

It also kind of annoys me that because I share my life with a woman, I'm put into the same category as a thief or an adulterer.

I don't view homosexuality as a sin as such, but Christians are taught that we have to love people unconditionally, and that we are all sinners, we all do things that are not ideal. Its like your child, if they do something "negative", you'll view the behaviour as negative, but it will not diminish your love for them.

 

[AppleBlossom]

Whatever happened to "love thy neighbour"

Why do people have to be put into "categories" as to whether or not they'll be accepted by society?

 

[Lightworker]

It also kind of annoys me that because I share my life with a woman, I'm put into the same category as a thief or an adulterer.

Hey I am an adulterer! What ya getting at!

Moving on!

Sorry I don't know if 'strain' was the right word but what I mean was obviously Christian is broken down into different parts such are Christian/Catholic/Methodist/Born again....etc Some are more 'In your face' than others.

So do you think if a individual who is homosexual marries and lives with the opposite sex thats good? Or is that lieing and being false?
Would God be happier with someone living a unhappy life which was infact a lie, going against who they are (I like appleblossom and many others think your gender preference is not a choice)

I also dont think you can pick and choose the bits of religion you like. Would you support a change in the Bible that removed homosexuality being a sin? As obviously there are many 'versions' of the Bible and Christianity. Should we be looking into moving religion more with the times for the good of society as it stands?

How do you go about "removing" something from being a sin? I know loads of stuff in the Bible leave the scope for interpretation wide open, but with homosexuality I always thought it was quite clear what the view point was.

I hope no one taks this the wrong way, but in my head I imagined someone having a discussion with God, petitioning him (as you would your own government to reconsider the "sinful" nature of homosexuality, and had a bit of a chuckle.

Seriously though, I don't think people should pick and choose what they believe in, but from my limited knowledge of the Bible, all the bits in it were collated by human beings, and this mean that the way things are worded could mean a variety of things, moreso that it has been so long since the Bible was written, and also, if we are to believe some theories, that there's many bits of it missing.

I think though that religion is moving with the times, perhaps at a very slow rate, as someone pointed out, they will now marry divorcees, depending on the parish and so forth. That is a sign of evolution, and I think I have read of some gay clergymen.

 

[vaniilla]

I don't understand why it hasn't always been the case, there have always been gay people just like there's always been straight people, its sad that some have rights when others don't a relationship is a relationship and love is love, they're universal, you can't define them by orientation so its only fair that they can get married too, I think straight people should be able to have a civil partnership as some prefer the idea of that to marriage.

 

[Sarahkka]

Sarahkka: There are a few issues in your argument. First, replacing "gay", "lesbian", and "homosexual" with "black", "hispanic", or "native" is not logical. When I say that homosexuality is a sin, I'm referring to specific acts that are a result of giving into temptation. Race is something that you are born with, and have no control over. It is not an action, thought, or desire. Scripture indicates that, in regards to race or social status, God views all people as the same. I would refer you to Acts 17:26 and Job 31:13-15. These are just a two examples, but I believe it is evident throughout Scripture.

Secondly, God's Word does not condone slavery, at least not in the modern sense of the word. When most people today think of slavery (including myself), we think of slavery in the modern sense of the word. We think of New-World/Western slavery, and Biblical slavery was nothing of the sort. In the Old Testament, slavery was primarily something that a person entered into voluntarily, but there were many laws regarding treatment of slaves to protect them. Even non-Jewish cultures had a different definition of slavery than what you'll find today. In the New Testament, slavery among Christians looked more like the Roman model of slavery, and Paul not only encouraged a respectful slave/master relationship, but also encouraged voluntary manumission of slaves.

The argument is very logical in that, just like racism, homophobia denies a group of people the same rights and freedoms as the rest of society based on their sexual preference. And I do argue with you that homosexuality is a choice or an action. I think sexual preference is part of the essence of a person's nature. To suggest that someone should repress such an important part of themselves and "choose" not to be gay is abhorrent.
Because what I think you are suggesting is that living that kind of lie is acceptable to your god, but open acknowledgement of love between two consenting adults is not? I have trouble reconciling that with the Christian message of tolerance and acceptance.
The next part of your argument is trickier for me, as I am not a Christian and have nowhere near the knowledge of your version of the bible that you do, but I think this boils down to interpretation.
The following is meant to be a bit of humour, but does have a point - the bible tells us to do a whole lot of things that were probably pretty important 2000+ years ago, but are of questionable relevance today. Perhaps declaring an entire group of people as sinners and miscreants based on their sexual preference should be dropped the same way that "only wearing one fibre at a time" or "not planting two different crops in the same field" kind of biblical instruction has.
https://allthingsqueer.co.za/archives/religion/60.html

 

[Nibblenic]

Are animals capable of Sin? What about the homosexual animals?
Surely they cannot be being lead by sin? Just nature. If God created the animals surely they would all be straight as thats what God/nature intended?

 

[Natsku]

Homosexuality is something you're born as (as I'm sure we all know) and is perfectly natural (as nature shows us) so a God that would make some gay and then tell them that they will burn in hell because of what he made them - thats not a God that is worthy of worship in my opinion.
The Church's treatment of gays is one of the reasons I stopped going to Church when I was a teenager. One of my friends who was also a believer, came out and then was shunned by quite a few of the people in the Church (not all of them, there were many wonderful people there but it was clear that even they weren't comfortable with her anymore even if they tried not to show it)

 

[DanielleM]

I believe everybody has the choice to decide their own life and should not be dictated to by a book!!!

I am Catholic, went to a Catholic school, my son goes to a Catholic school.

I was still in the Catholic school in 6th form when I became pregnant with Evan, the school were absolutley amazing, sent me a big bouquet of flowers and really helped me in finishing my A-levels. As this was a Catholic school they knew I was unmarried so therefore had sinned, what if they turned their back on me and threw me out of school, I would of had no A-levels and wouldn't of gone to Uni and gotten a degree. Thank god the school had moved with the times and were not dictated to by a book.

I am 100% in agreement with same sex marriages. Why the hell not? Because of a book?

 

[Lightworker]

I believe everybody has the choice to decide their own life and should not be dictated to by a book!!!

I am Catholic, went to a Catholic school, my son goes to a Catholic school.

I was still in the Catholic school in 6th form when I became pregnant with Evan, the school were absolutley amazing, sent me a big bouquet of flowers and really helped me in finishing my A-levels. As this was a Catholic school they knew I was unmarried so therefore had sinned, what if they turned their back on me and threw me out of school, I would of had no A-levels and wouldn't of gone to Uni and gotten a degree. Thank god the school had moved with the times and were not dictated to by a book.

I am 100% in agreement with same sex marriages. Why the hell not? Because of a book?

I loved reading your post mainly because the Catholic church in my view has been potrayed (wrongly or rightly) in a negative light as far as unwed mothers are concerned.

Saying that, I don't think the beliefs held are based just on a "book"..the book in question is symbolic of the beliefs which are held, and run deeper than just being merely a book..iykwim x

 

[Jess137]

I have no problem with gay marriage whatsoever. My little brother and one of my aunts are gay. I think my upbringing was a little unusual compared to most others (as far as I can tell). I was always taught that there was nothing wrong with being gay. My family is not religious. I grew up around my aunt and her partner. I even stood up with her at their civil union. We always joked that my brother was going to be gay (even at age 2). Not in a mean way, I think we just always knew that's who he was. He came out when he was 18, and neither myself nor my parents had any issues with it. He is the same person he's always been.

The point of that story is that I believe that you are born with a certain sexual preference. I do not believe that it is your upbringing - there would be a lot less gay people if that were the case! Plus, I would be gay too, if that theory were correct.

At my wedding, my aunt (she's an ordained minister) performed the ceremony, and my brother was my "man of honor" - I didn't have any bridesmaids. It kills me to think that he is not legally allowed to have the same rights that my husband and I have.

My husband comes from a very religious Southern Baptist family, and some of his family members refused to come to our wedding.

I'm sorry for all the non related rambling, this is all related to my views on gay marriage. I do not agree with the argument that gay marriage threatens traditional marriage. I don't feel that gay people getting married has anything to do with MY marriage. If you don't like gay marriage, don't get one!

 

[DanielleM]

I believe everybody has the choice to decide their own life and should not be dictated to by a book!!!

I am Catholic, went to a Catholic school, my son goes to a Catholic school.

I was still in the Catholic school in 6th form when I became pregnant with Evan, the school were absolutley amazing, sent me a big bouquet of flowers and really helped me in finishing my A-levels. As this was a Catholic school they knew I was unmarried so therefore had sinned, what if they turned their back on me and threw me out of school, I would of had no A-levels and wouldn't of gone to Uni and gotten a degree. Thank god the school had moved with the times and were not dictated to by a book.

I am 100% in agreement with same sex marriages. Why the hell not? Because of a book?

I loved reading your post mainly because the Catholic church in my view has been potrayed (wrongly or rightly) in a negative light as far as unwed mothers are concerned.

Saying that, I don't think the beliefs held are based just on a "book"..the book in question is symbolic of the beliefs which are held, and run deeper than just being merely a book..iykwim x

I know it is more than a book, I used the term to highlight that to other people the Bible is just a book, as the Bible has no meaning to them as they either are Atheists or have another religion. The same way the Koran (sp?) has absolutley no meaning to me but means everything to people who are from that religion. I don't know the Bible was written such a long time ago I think people and religion needs to move with the times and many relgions have, such as my local parish priest had no problems christening Evan or Jacob and I was an unwed mum. Years ago this would not of happened as I would of sinned, so I believe in the future the Catholic church will accept gay relationships. If they can choose to dictate what is right and wrong in the bible that makes them hypocrites. If the church can accept an unwed mother (a sin in the bible), then why won't they accept a people in same sex relationships (also a sin in the bible)?