How dangerous is Swine Flu while pregnant?

[Bam]

We have the CDC website to look to. I'm not looking for information. Just weighing various doctor's opinions on who should have the vaccine. I haven't had a flu vaccine in something like 14 years with no issue and THAT'S what I'm going to discuss with my doctor... whether it's really necessary for me.

 

[FemmeEnceinte]

I think, if you're otherwise healthy... there's really no need at all. If you have health concerns, it's up to you to weigh up all the information and make the decision for yourself.

I just don't agree with "the government say we should, so we should...".

 

[Bam]

I just don't agree with "the government say we should, so we should...".

I kind of got that impression... >.>

Just a little bit.

 

[purpledahlia]

you shouldnt do it because the government says, its up to each individual and what their circumstances are,

 

[charlottesma]

My daughter came down with it this weekend, she was really poorly, her temprature went up to 39.6 and she was having trouble breathing for nearly 24hours.

As a brittle asthmatic it scared the heck out of me, My Consultant had already told me to contact him if I came into contact with it and he sought advice from the CDC and WHO, as a result I was advised to take relenza and see my respiratory consultant frequently over the next week for observation as a precaution.

while I am pretty sure that healthy individuals will be fine I know with what I have seen and my history of complications from respiratory illnesses the risks of me taking the antivirals outweight the risks of not taking it.

on the other hand my daughter came down with it on Sat, was at her worst from Sat until yesterday morning and by the time the drug collection point opened yesterday she was begining to improve, her temprature had dropped to 38.6 and her breathing was no longer as laboured, so again after seking medical advice we have decided not to treat her with antivirals and instead to keep her in bed with lots of calpol.

from my experiences and the medical proffesionals I have had contact with it really does seem that taking it on a case by case basis, considering all health factors is important.

 

[nov_mum]

There is no test as such. A viral culture is one thing, a rapid test quite another. Of course differing strains are identifiable, but we cannot stand around and wait for a petri dish to provide the results of everybody they suspect has H1N1 so they roll out the rapid test which is, at very best, hit and miss. With an accuracy rate of 50%, you may as well flip a coin. It is from this that I am able to make "unsubstantiated claims" about it's existence.

There is a reason why rapid tests are being done over the viral cultures. Viral cultures have a longer turn around and only prove the strain of flu. A rapid test proves the person has a flu. Since Swine Flu has become the dominant strain (proven by doing viral cultures), it is assumed that 90% of flu cases are Swine. The actual treatment of flu doesn't differ on the strain so it is clinically useless to determine the strain except for purposes such as coroners reports or monitoring the virus randomly for mutations. The big difference is that Tamiflu can be used to treat Swine Flu at the moment as it is a novel strain and susceptible to the anti-viral. Most other flu strains are not susceptible as they have been around for a while and have developed resistance which Swine Flu will eventually do as all strains do this. Most labs were inundated with samples and were unable to keep up so testing was prioritised to those with especially severe cases (to determine if mutation had occured) or to those working in large institutions such as hospitals, rest homes, day care centres (to ascertain the start point/origin of transmission and to confirm an outbreak).

There are most certainly 'otherwise healthy' individuals that have died due to the Swine Flu. A small number but nevertheless they have died. There were a number of 'otherwise healthy' individuals who ended up in ICU also but survived.

Some pregnant ladies who had flu and high temps have started early labour and needed interventions. As mentioned above, the risks to pregnant ladies is higher due to decreased immunity, reduced lung space (potential for secondary pnemonia) and initiating early labours etc secondary to high temps.

It is no more dangerous on an individual basis than seasonal flu and in fact is known to generally be less severe than seasonal varieties. However, it has made a large impact on a wider scale in that it is more contagious than seasonal flu, it is a new virus so there is less/no established immunity within the community (a certain percentage of the community have been infected with other strains and developed immunity so not all the community is at risk the following flu season). Therefore there are more people getting sick at one time than usual. If 10% of usual flu suffers have complications and need hospital treatment and now a larger percentage of people are sick then that 10% is larger also. This places a strain on health resources in that not everyone can be cared for. In our country elective heart and other operations got cancelled which is a huge issue if you need a surgery but there is no bed.

 

[FemmeEnceinte]

I think there a re a few key words to take away from what you said. "Assumed" being the biggest one. Rapid antigen tests aren't even being done here, it's straight up assuming based upon flu like symptoms. That's not good practice, that's a backlash reaction to something you, yourself have conceeded is less severe than seasonal flu.

Yes, perfectly healthy people die from seasonal influenza. Cytokine storm being the primary reason for this. It's rare and it's certainly not newsworthy., unless it's the infamous swine flu of course... Furthermore, It has yet to be proven by anyone other than a paper over here that anyone at all has died as a direct result of swine flu. Until I see it for myself, I'm more than a little bit sceptical.

I will agree however that the main problem with any pandemic is the strain on the global economy and resources, if there are a lot of people off sick and in a time of global economic crisis it does not bode well for the situation... this is actually, in my personal opinion, the only reason the government are rolling out this vaccine.

But you know, the proof will be in the pudding. When winter has come and gone and around 30% of the worlds population at most have been infected with this flu and a minute proportion have died, and when unnecessary complications have arisen in an unsubstantiated number of people who have taken the vaccine it will be yet another case of "I told you so".

I mean really, what's next? Avianswinesarsaids flu! With a 100% infection and mortality rate, move over ebola...! It's a joke.

 

[nov_mum]

Here in NZ we had a number of people with confirmed H1N1 die as a direct result of the fly. Some had underlying conditions such as obesity, pregnancy, asthma but there was a proportion who had no previous medical history that would indicate specific risk. Our winter has come and is going. The first wave has peaked and for some it was a huge problem. Businesses did close, people did miss out on surgeries that they needed for quality of life and getting back to work etc. The way NZ and Australia have handled the pandemic sets a precedent for how the northern hemisphere will handle it in your upcoming flu season and there are lessons to be learned from our experience.

No one said there would be a large mortality rate, at least once the initial reports from Mexico has settled down and been investigated that is. The health boards here knew it was always going to be about a resource issue and the economists knew it was going to hit small business operators hard. Schools closed and this impacted on parents being able to get to work.

In regards to assuming...the assumptions were not pulled out of thin air. They came from testing and expert advice from professors who have studied Influenza and pandemics for many years. What was proving that every single case was in fact H1N1 going to achieve apart from spending loads of unnecessary dollars on tests that would confirm what was already consistently being shown?

There is far too much paranoia about government conspiracies to offload drug companies wares, public intimidation etc. If you get sick and don't want to take the medications offered then don't. The government/WHO are only trying to protect the health/economies and futures of communities. There is no major conspiracy here, jsut governments doing their jobs.

 

[FemmeEnceinte]

Here in NZ we had a number of people with confirmed H1N1 die as a direct result of the fly. Some had underlying conditions such as obesity, pregnancy, asthma but there was a proportion who had no previous medical history that would indicate specific risk. Our winter has come and is going. The first wave has peaked and for some it was a huge problem. Businesses did close, people did miss out on surgeries that they needed for quality of life and getting back to work etc. The way NZ and Australia have handled the pandemic sets a precedent for how the northern hemisphere will handle it in your upcoming flu season and there are lessons to be learned from our experience.

No one said there would be a large mortality rate, at least once the initial reports from Mexico has settled down and been investigated that is. The health boards here knew it was always going to be about a resource issue and the economists knew it was going to hit small business operators hard. Schools closed and this impacted on parents being able to get to work.

In regards to assuming...the assumptions were not pulled out of thin air. They came from testing and expert advice from professors who have studied Influenza and pandemics for many years. What was proving that every single case was in fact H1N1 going to achieve apart from spending loads of unnecessary dollars on tests that would confirm what was already consistently being shown?

There is far too much paranoia about government conspiracies to offload drug companies wares, public intimidation etc. If you get sick and don't want to take the medications offered then don't. The government/WHO are only trying to protect the health/economies and futures of communities. There is no major conspiracy here, jsut governments doing their jobs.

It's like I said, yes it happens but it's rare and is primarily down to cytokine storm. Over here and in most people who don't actually really understand it, the worry is definitely regarding large scale mortality over economic instability. There has been no effort to educate the masses and people are, instead, at the mercy of media hysteria. The economy crumbling under the strain as a result doesn't make tabloid headlines, people dying does. It's been blown way out of proportion.

If it's different over there, and in America too then a lot of my irritation and is possibly misunderstood on your part. Assumption, over here at least, being the primary basis for diagnosis after a literal handful of actual tests/diagnoses is, to me, not good enough. Particularly when hysteria is rife and pregnant women are considering injecting themselves with a relatively experimental vaccine that has no known long term impact as a result. That's not good enough and the government is doing absolutely nothing to change things. The current government has nothing to gain by educating the masses and drug companies stand to gain an insane amount to the degree that doctors are on commission to push the drugs.

There has been a lot of encouraging ignorant people to do things they, in all honesty, know nothing at all about. Not only is it poor on a moral and ethical note, but it makes absolutely no sense if they are genuinely doing their job and have the interests of anyone but themselves in mind.

 

[nov_mum]

As far as I'm aware the Swine Flu Vax is still not available for use. There has been a huge debate in Australia over doctors prescribing the vax as their liability insurance does not cover them for prescribing and administering medications which are not fully certified. The vax won't be fully certified until thorough testing has been complete in accordance to all medication certification processes. The government are looking at providing a dispensation or agreeing to cover the doctors in order to get the vax out asap. At present, I would not take the vaccine as I am pregnant but if there was a second round of the flu which was more virulent, as in the spanish flu pandemic, I would most definitely risk my baby to save my life and hopefully my baby's. I would take tamiflu also if I had become ill. Luckily I have escaped the swine flu and I had the flu jab earlier in the year prior to becoming pregnant.

The doctors in Australia and NZ are not recommending that pregnant women take the Vax when it becomes available but they are encouraging women who are planning on conceiving to take the flu jab and the swine flu jab. Tamiflu is recommended by most doctors for pregnant women and public health advertisements encouraged women with symptoms to be seen asap for tamiflu. I think NZ has handled it pretty well so far and the rates of infection are low now. Providing another more virulent strain does not appear then we have gotten off rather lightly (apart from those who were killed and their families obviously). I agree that public education and good planning are the best tools to managing a pandemic. I'm happy to have chemical back up though.

Wash your hands, avoid sick people, stay at home if you are sick and stock up on a few extra tins of baked beans and packets of paracetamol in case you get ill over night and can't get out to the shops. The worst that can happen is that you will have clean hands and some extra groceries.

 

[FemmeEnceinte]

Tamiflu isn't recommended for pregnant women, it's Relenza as it doesn't cross the placenta. Also Tamiflu is ineffective after somebody has presented with symptoms for 2 days or more.

The possibility of a mutation to a more virulent strain is so minute it's not really worth worrying about. Influenzas mutate all the time, but the nature of H1N1 and the vast majority of seasonal influenzas aren't such that any combination (if they did somehow find the perfect host) could realistically mutate into something unprecedented or even particularly unmanageable. It will mutate, but only within the realms of that which seasonal influenzas do year upon year anyway.

It will all blow over and nothing major will really come of it. Mortality rates will remain lower than that of seasonal influenza and a lot of deaths will wrongly be attributed to H1N1 which will bump up the minute mortality rate to something marginally less minute.

I have no faith in the seasonal influenza vaccination as it is, but that's my own personal opinion based upon my own research and understanding. Everybody should educate themselves and make up their own minds because whatever you chose to believe, there is a risk either way and education is the only thing we can really rely on to help us.

 

[nov_mum]

In NZ Tamiflu is recommended and readily available. Relenza is not first line. Yes, after 48hrs of onset of symptoms it is useless as it won't be able to stop the virus shedding, therefore will have no benefit of reducing the severity and course of illness (which is it's function).

All influenza viruses mutate, it's part of their natural evolution. By this time next year it may be resistant to tamiflu as are most other strains. It is possible that it could become more virulent as influenza strains are completely unpredictable. It is possible that all strains could mutate but usually once the have been around for a while it becomes more known, more people have been exposed and developed an immunity or have received flu jabs to prevent them.

It's all about personal choice and choices you make while pregnant are choices you may not make when not pregnant or not a mother. For our family, taking the flu jab was the most sensible thing we could do to avoid the chance of getting sick, infecting our child and needing to take time off work. I had my son vaccinated also after a long discussion with my GP. NZ had a 20% increase in the uptake of the flu jab this year and it may have been our saving grace when the Swine Flu hit. Flu season is always busy and we open wards for the season which close once infection rates peak. Our city's ICU was full with mostly flu patients and it meant that if you had a heart attack or major trauma, you were likely to be managed in a unit that usually didn't cope with that level of care and had limited experience. I wouldn't have wanted to be one of those patients.

 

[FemmeEnceinte]

It's highly, highly unlikely to mutate as it completely dominates all other strains. Without delving more deeply into virology and confusing everyone, that makes mutation a virtual impossibility. I say virtual as nothing is certain, but I know where my money lies.

My problem with the seasonal vaccine is that there isn't a lot to show that it makes any difference at all. Namely, the vaccine has had absolutely no impact upon infection and mortality rates.

While I agree that one of the greatest health risks is posed to those who are usurped in favour of swine flu, I don't really think people are aware of the full extent of swine flu if it really is so far reaching as is being suggested. For every person who is poorly and wailing their way down to the chemist to pick up their dose of tamiflu, there will be at least one other person who stayed at home and thought nothing of their illness and didn't bother to report it at all. In fact, many experts saying that up to 1/3 of people with it will experience no more than a minor cold and another 1/3 will present with no symptoms at all.

While the strain of those falling seriously ill has, undoubtedly, had an impact to some degree it's not enough for me to consider it any more worth of vaccinating against than seasonal influenza. Something I, personally, do not believe I have ever had. Your decision was exactly that... yours to make and I will always respect people who make those decisions from an educated perspective because, of course, who is to say that I or the experts I trust in are right at all? But the number of people over here practically begging for the vaccine are doing it for all the wrong reasons and I believe that we will see a fair few fatalities/illnesses in people who chose to have the vaccine without knowing the full implications before they did it, which a concept I find particularly difficult to accept and one that I think lets our government down more than anything else it has failed to achieve.

 

[nov_mum]

I think those that are clambering over themselves to get the swine flu vaccine should start with getting the seasonal flu vaccine. People have mythical ideas about flu, colds and vaccines. It is still a widely held belief that you can get the flu from the jab. People refer to having the flu when in fact they had a cold for three days. People also state a valid reason for not vaccinating is because they have never gotten sick before. Well, no one had the plague before it hit either.

I completely agree that it is everyone's individual choice to make in regards to what vaccinations/medications they decide to take but unfortunately there are so many urban myths which circulate and so many people who fail to find out the truth about these matters that you will always have people who make decisions with half the info.

It's suprising how many people choose not to vaccinate their children against preventable diseases due to the fact they think aborted foetuses are the main ingredient. Or, that a child just needs organic veges to prevent meningitis.

 

[FemmeEnceinte]

I'm not opting out of being vaccinated because I've never had the flu. My immune system may be impressive but that's not really the issue... nor are old wives tales. I, personally, do not see the merit in an otherwise healthy young adult particularly in the face of irrefutable evidence stating that it has had no impact whatsoever. I don't consider believing aborted fetuses an ingredient to be coming from an educated viewpoint. I consider wide research of medical journals, facts, statistics and analysis of results and interpretations of experts to be about as educated as possible without carrying out studies on a personal basis.

I'm not sure if your specific points were directed at me, but they fit in with the points I made and certainly sound like it.

 

[purpledahlia]

I personally dont think that people over here (in the UK) are begging for the vaccine at all. And quite honestly dont like the idea of someone telling people in another country that people over here are uneducated, know nothing about it and are begging for the vaccine. Everyone i know or have spoken to about it is fully aware and educated on the fact that its not been tested properly or for long enough and everyone is extremely extremely wary about taking it or giving their kids it.

I think your makng the government and the people living here sound very stupid, uneducated and your not giving people the credit that they are thinking for themselves. Its not like that at all. Your Generalising the whole of the UK to someone across the pond, and in my opinion making the british sound foolish which i dont think is fair. Based on what? SOME people you may or may not know that have said they want the vaccine? Everyone here is doing just the same as you... reaserching themselves and deciding based on their own findings and information. People who are ill and taking tamiflu are just listening to their doctor and as you have made quite clear you dont trust the medical profession as they might not be right, maybe those poeple do. its nobody's place to judge their opinion.

Maybe think about re-wording a few things when it comes to generalising the UK in future as you may start to offend some people. There is no government conspiriacy.. they are only handling it as best they can. If you dont trust them or agree. fine. I strongly disagree that the british are begging for the vaccine tho, infact i dont know one person who actually wants it.

If people dont educate themselves on these things then thats their problem. but if they dont agree then they dont agree. No point trying to make them they can make their own mind up as adults.

 

[nov_mum]

No FemmeEnceinte, it wasn't directed at you. I was stating that some people make some decisions on these issues with false information. I don't think anyone is going mad with swine flu fever except a pile of anti-governmentalists who like to find a conspiracy in everything. Governments don't spend millions of dollars on these things for fun. They do it to protect people and save lives. I disagree that there is no statistical information to support vaccination against influenza. I have seen plenty in NZ. In regards to Swine Flu, I haven't seen any literature but that is mainly because there is very little as the vaccine is still being formulated and tested, albeit not in the usual manner that medicines are tested. I can not comment on other countries as I have no personal experience and am not involved in international health care. I do support a vaccinations personally and all of my training, education, experience and reasoning has helped me make the right decision for my family. I understand that there are people who hold differing views and that is their decision. I just think there are so many people out there saying "swine flu is a conspiracy and will never amount to anything" when it has already had a huge impact on our country and communities within. Maybe that is not the experience in your country and I hope it stays that way for you. Especially if you are in a country from the Northern Hemisphere as you are beginning to head into your flu season.

 

[FemmeEnceinte]

I personally dont think that people over here (in the UK) are begging for the vaccine at all. And quite honestly dont like the idea of someone telling people in another country that people over here are uneducated, know nothing about it and are begging for the vaccine. Everyone i know or have spoken to about it is fully aware and educated on the fact that its not been tested properly or for long enough and everyone is extremely extremely wary about taking it or giving their kids it.

I think your makng the government and the people living here sound very stupid, uneducated and your not giving people the credit that they are thinking for themselves. Its not like that at all. Your Generalising the whole of the UK to someone across the pond, and in my opinion making the british sound foolish which i dont think is fair. Based on what? SOME people you may or may not know that have said they want the vaccine? Everyone here is doing just the same as you... reaserching themselves and deciding based on their own findings and information. People who are ill and taking tamiflu are just listening to their doctor and as you have made quite clear you dont trust the medical profession as they might not be right, maybe those poeple do. its nobody's place to judge their opinion.

Maybe think about re-wording a few things when it comes to generalising the UK in future as you may start to offend some people. There is no government conspiracy.. they are only handling it as best they can. If you dont trust them or agree. fine. I strongly disagree that the british are begging for the vaccine tho, infact i dont know one person who actually wants it.

If people dont educate themselves on these things then thats their problem. but if they dont agree then they dont agree. No point trying to make them they can make their own mind up as adults.

Well, that's your opinion to have. As somebody who is surrounded by people who work in the medical profession, people who work in virology and people who work in the NHS and as a medical researcher myself I am well aware of the volume of people who are interested in the vaccine, the number of people who are clambering to get to it and of general public opinion on the matter. I don't talk to friends about it so I wouldn't know what they think, but on the whole I think education on the matter is severely lacking.

Not because some people aren't going out there and finding information for themselves, but because it isn't being given to them. Not everyone is as proactive as you, I or the people you know. I think you're handing out undue credit to ANY nation if you think that people are truly inclined to do something like that. With average levels of intelligence being relatively low in the UK and education not being what it used to be, taking an active role in educating oneself is something that not many are inclined or able to do. Furthermore, fully educating oneself would be to begin with medical journals, along with understanding key elements of immunobiology and virology itself... can you honestly say that this is you? This is something I've been involved in for a long time, so I know where to start. I don't believe that educating oneself really includes NHS websites and doctor's opinions (particularly as it varies wildly and some are inclined to be paid to administer this vaccine). On top of this, GPs are no virologists, they are not specialists.

The reason I am saying "over here" is because it was highlighted to me that things may be done differently over in the US. It has since emerged that, actually, it's not very different at all. The reason why it IS different for NZ is because they're coming to the end of their winter and have actually been through the second wave.

If you find what I have to say insulting, then that is your prerogative. If you are inclined to feel insulted on behalf of a certain proportion of a nation then, again, it's entirely your prerogative. But, that doesn't make what I'm saying any less correct. That people here don't really know what is going on. The Sun isn't making millions talking shit about swine flu for nothing, people aren't consistently asking when the vaccine will be ready for nothing and people aren't worried they're going to die for nothing. A better understanding would mean less fear, which is exactly the emotion upon which people are acting. So, they either have researched like you say everyone is doing and STILL misunderstand or they have not.

I wont think about rewording anything, because I am as entitled to say what I think as you do. I have plenty to back up what I say. If you feel insulted, that's up to you but it is neither my fault nor my problem. If people don't agree then you're right... I can't make them, but I can speculate on their reasons for not agreeing which are, on the whole, flawed.

 

[FemmeEnceinte]

No FemmeEnceinte, it wasn't directed at you. I was stating that some people make some decisions on these issues with false information. I don't think anyone is going mad with swine flu fever except a pile of anti-governmentalists who like to find a conspiracy in everything. Governments don't spend millions of dollars on these things for fun. They do it to protect people and save lives. I disagree that there is no statistical information to support vaccination against influenza. I have seen plenty in NZ. In regards to Swine Flu, I haven't seen any literature but that is mainly because there is very little as the vaccine is still being formulated and tested, albeit not in the usual manner that medicines are tested. I can not comment on other countries as I have no personal experience and am not involved in international health care. I do support a vaccinations personally and all of my training, education, experience and reasoning has helped me make the right decision for my family. I understand that there are people who hold differing views and that is their decision. I just think there are so many people out there saying "swine flu is a conspiracy and will never amount to anything" when it has already had a huge impact on our country and communities within. Maybe that is not the experience in your country and I hope it stays that way for you. Especially if you are in a country from the Northern Hemisphere as you are beginning to head into your flu season.

What exactly is "something" that it could be amounting to? If the entirety of this debate hasn't already proven... my point is not about the impact upon the economy and people who suffer as a result of H1N1 dominating NHS resources it is about "something" not being mass mortality. That is something which is still being pressed home by various sources. If the government looks like it's doing something, then hysteria isn't so far reaching. People feel safer with a vaccine as an option. That's the long and short of it for me.

I don't think it's a conspiracy, I think it's pure and simple poor judgement. I am entitled to disagree with government opinion considering I don't agree with the sources advising them... that doesn't make me a conspiracy theorist... that makes me strongly opinionated.

 

[Wobbles]

Locked until reviewed.