ISIS and child beheadings?

[Bex84]

And I agree is many factors. Its scary that children are being shown to be indoctrinated into Isis and this limits the chance of there being any kind of resolution as the hates of the elders are passed on to youth

 

[emyandpotato]

I do think the West's culture is an abomination to many views and values held in the M.E and elsewhere --- the sheer amounts of focus on lust, physical beauty, idolatry, indulgence, convenience, wealth, power, etc (although these things are not at all unique to the West [and have been committed and sought through-out history globally]) --- and trying to enforce them upon a people against such would likely provoke them (even coming to view their own as traitors if they welcome such) ---

With that said, though,

Muhammad was not a stellar individual (he was a murderous thief and slave-trader AND he consummated marriage with a nine year old girl [Aisha]). It's my understanding that the Qur’an includes hateful, narcisstic "scriptures" --- and is founded from a twisted madman.

All things predating Nestle and U.S etc.

It would seem to me many modern proclaimed Muslims aren't even aware of much of the Qur’an --- and rather take on secular twists or have been influenced by other religions --- much like many Christians haven't read the Holy Bible and are unaware of many things within it (like God purportedly ordering genocides... including that of innocent infants and women [but even in the Old Testament, many times God didn't condone taking of corrupt spoils whereas Muhammad relished in them heh]).

I feel horrible for Yazidis who carry around far more ancient practices than Christianity and Islam and are being threatened for such (I don't know why else ISIS would attempt to exterminate them).

I wish I could see the truth through all the propaganda. What it's always really been about. I see fragile beings, maybe desperately trying to come to terms with mortality --- but maybe it's nothing of the sort.

How much is due to greed, selfishness, control, pleasure?

The only thing I'm actually certain about is that it is evil to assault/kill/hurt a child and there isn't any excuse nor reason good enough to.

Can't write a long reply as I have work in the morning but yeah muslims read the whole Quran, or at least the majority of literate Muslims do, in fact that is said to be one of the issues in the rise of Islamism- modernity is increasing literacy and because there is no central Islamic authority young Muslims are interpreting the Quran themselves, which is kind of like when a Christian reads one line on, say, homosexuality being an abomination, and yet doesn't understand the historical context etc. so it can become misconstrued. Does that make sense? At the same time, however, the rise of literacy is producing many liberal Muslims and activists in the ME.

Don't agree with you on Mohammed being completely bad, but that is a whole other debate! Certainly though things were very different back then.

It's all incredibly fucked up and complicated and scary.

 

[Andypanda6570]

Also had to add that I am not saying we are blameless, but that is another debate. But, I will definitely not take responsibility for these groups and what they do... They have no cause rhyme or reason, they are just thugs who kill in the name of their interpretation of islam

 

[Ramanie]

Hi Andypanda6570,

Thank you for the above. I just want to say that my youngest grand daughter's name is Ava too. Sorry to hear about your angel. She is with the Lord and you will meet her one day again.

 

[OnyxSnowfall]

I do think the West's culture is an abomination to many views and values held in the M.E and elsewhere --- the sheer amounts of focus on lust, physical beauty, idolatry, indulgence, convenience, wealth, power, etc (although these things are not at all unique to the West [and have been committed and sought through-out history globally]) --- and trying to enforce them upon a people against such would likely provoke them (even coming to view their own as traitors if they welcome such) ---

With that said, though,

Muhammad was not a stellar individual (he was a murderous thief and slave-trader AND he consummated marriage with a nine year old girl [Aisha]). It's my understanding that the Qur’an includes hateful, narcisstic "scriptures" --- and is founded from a twisted madman.

All things predating Nestle and U.S etc.

It would seem to me many modern proclaimed Muslims aren't even aware of much of the Qur’an --- and rather take on secular twists or have been influenced by other religions --- much like many Christians haven't read the Holy Bible and are unaware of many things within it (like God purportedly ordering genocides... including that of innocent infants and women [but even in the Old Testament, many times God didn't condone taking of corrupt spoils whereas Muhammad relished in them heh]).

I feel horrible for Yazidis who carry around far more ancient practices than Christianity and Islam and are being threatened for such (I don't know why else ISIS would attempt to exterminate them).

I wish I could see the truth through all the propaganda. What it's always really been about. I see fragile beings, maybe desperately trying to come to terms with mortality --- but maybe it's nothing of the sort.

How much is due to greed, selfishness, control, pleasure?

The only thing I'm actually certain about is that it is evil to assault/kill/hurt a child and there isn't any excuse nor reason good enough to.

Can't write a long reply as I have work in the morning but yeah muslims read the whole Quran, or at least the majority of literate Muslims do, in fact that is said to be one of the issues in the rise of Islamism- modernity is increasing literacy and because there is no central Islamic authority young Muslims are interpreting the Quran themselves, which is kind of like when a Christian reads one line on, say, homosexuality being an abomination, and yet doesn't understand the historical context etc. so it can become misconstrued. Does that make sense? At the same time, however, the rise of literacy is producing many liberal Muslims and activists in the ME.

Don't agree with you on Mohammed being completely bad, but that is a whole other debate! Certainly though things were very different back then.

It's all incredibly fucked up and complicated and scary.

Yes that makes sense, thank you.

I see what you're saying about things being different back then (I mean, he was born in 570? --- things like taking a wife at age 6 was apparently common/not considered pedophilia/wrong then).

I'd like to be able to read the original or at least native texts of the Torah, Qu'ran, Bible, etc --- I have a lot of learning to do before I'm capable of that! Then I'd need to be entrusted with such lol.

It just all breaks my heart

I got so sick looking at some of the pictures. I can't imagine being any of those people - I hurt so much for those who've had their children taken from them. The helplessness, the fear, oh God - and why...

It is probably so awfully complex and tragic. I wish I knew what to do, what could be done, what I should do, what's right. I do pray, but I feel like there needs to be some kind of action and I'm just shattered.

 

[Midnight_Fairy]

I believe its only a matter of time before stuff happens in the UK. ISIS are a whole different board game. Absolutely sick and I agree we should be involved.

 

[pinkpolkadot]

What these people are doing disgusts me.

However, in these situations it's really hard to separate the truth from the propoganda. Just as an example, one of those graphic pictures of a child supposedly beheaded by ISIS on the catholic site was circulated 2 years ago and attributed to Assad's regime. While I am certain there is some really horrible stuff going on I think it's really important to remember that propoganda will be thrown in the mix to gather support (true on both sides I am sure).

It's ironic that the same rebels that the west were supporting and arming in Syria what seems like a few months ago are the ones we are now gunning for. Seems we are only too happy to support them when it suits our agenda. For this reason IMO the west has blood on their hands with regards to the growth of ISIS and the current situation.

There seems to be a pattern of getting involved where we have a vested interest under the guise of 'saving people from evil', leaving behind our puppet west friendly governments, and a complete mess which breeds these extremist groups. There are plenty of atrocities that have conveniently been ignored by the west, perhaps as there is nothing for us to gain by 'helping'.

 

[emyandpotato]

What these people are doing disgusts me.

However, in these situations it's really hard to separate the truth from the propoganda. Just as an example, one of those graphic pictures of a child supposedly beheaded by ISIS on the catholic site was circulated 2 years ago and attributed to Assad's regime. While I am certain there is some really horrible stuff going on I think it's really important to remember that propoganda will be thrown in the mix to gather support (true on both sides I am sure).

It's ironic that the same rebels that the west were supporting and arming in Syria what seems like a few months ago are the ones we are now gunning for. Seems we are only too happy to support them when it suits our agenda. For this reason IMO the west has blood on their hands with regards to the growth of ISIS and the current situation.

There seems to be a pattern of getting involved where we have a vested interest under the guise of 'saving people from evil', leaving behind our puppet west friendly governments, and a complete mess which breeds these extremist groups. There are plenty of atrocities that have conveniently been ignored by the west, perhaps as there is nothing for us to gain by 'helping'.

Agree 100%.

 

[Tiff]

This isn't about big household brands though, not sure how this is relevant to extreme religious views? Which from my understanding was what this terrorist organisation was about?

It's in fact extremely relevant. There are so many things that have contributed to the rise of Islamism and many we are indeed blameless in, but in many we are not. Many, many large companies based in the West have caused suffering in Eastern countries. It happens continually, and so many of our large brand names are responsible. There have also been many campaigns to stop it but really no one cares. No one stops buying, no difference is made. One very recent example is the privatisation of large areas of water in Pakistan by Nestle in order to make mineral water to be sold in the West, forcing many out of their homes, and causing poverty, sickness and death. For many, the fact that we allow this, and support it with our trade, is basically an act of terrorism in itself. Like I said, this happens continually.

Then you have the fact that in countries where Islam is the main religion, the consumerist society, which is seen as very much 'Western' (and is to a large extent), is to a large extent completely at odds with Muslim values. Extensive consumerism, nudity presented in adverts, or immodest clothes and an obsession with beauty, idolisation of brands and lifestyles, all stand against Islamic values. And yet this consumer culture of the West is everywhere, directly contradicting the beliefs and lifestyles of many. Then there's the fact that there is often a very large rich-poor divide. If people living in extreme poverty are seeing the wealth of their country going seemingly directly on Western consumerist lifestyles, they are gong to rebel against the West, and for the most part this results in people attempting to return to 'true' Islamic values, and therefore acting more modestly, living more traditionally etc. For the vast majority this by no means results in terrorism, but for some, the combination of poverty, suffering, atrocities committed by Western companies, and a loss of their traditional values can lead to extremism in the form of terrorism.

We also mustn't forget that the West colonised many Muslim countries, forcing our values and laws on people, causing suffering and destroying traditions. Then we supported various corrupt leaders, including the Taliban. This not only fostered contempt of the West in Eastern countries, but to an extent it made the governments and religious institutions (Islam has no body of authority in the way that Catholics have the Pope, as it was destroyed) themselves unstable when they became independent, meaning that many Islamic countries have suffered poverty and unjust governments as an indirect consequence of Western greed and power.

Then there are the countless wars we have been involved in, rightly or wrongly, which, regardless of their intentions have caused the death and suffering of millions of innocent people. Many in the West are of the opinion that the Iraq war was largely about oil and so wealth and power in the West (again), so imagine your opinion of our ways if your home had been destroyed and members of your family killed for this reason. Then after we take action in countries, we often try to implement our ways of thinking. It isn't okay to do this any more than it is okay for others to insist that their way of thinking is correct and come to Britain and force change. I'm not talking major human rights issues either, because that is understandable. For example, after Saddam Hussein's death there was a whole thing about how the US didn't want to put a Muslim president in to power in Iraq... Like what the actual fuck?! It's a Muslim country and a Muslim president is as natural as a Christian or atheist leader would be in the West (and yes I would absolutely support a leader of any other religion in Britain/America but I am just drawing a comparison).

Then there are things like Gaza, which is directly supported by America's provision of military funding to Israel. Not to mention the fact that we, the West, took land from others and gave it to the Jewish people, which in turn has caused decades of death and suffering.

So no, we are not innocent. Totally to blame? Of course not. But I really think we need to try and understand their point of view because force alone will not stop the problem. It is like trying to solve a stomach ache with painkillers alone, and not addressing the food intolerance that is causing the problem in the first place.

Instead though, we are turning to hate and fear in equal measures. Religious intolerance in the West has dramatically increased. Racism has increased. And so the divide between the West and Islam, even in the West itself, is growing, and so will terrorism.

Our countries are not blameless?! Some of these fighters are from our countries! Countries that have provided them with a home, education, health care, religious freedom.

Providing health care etc. is a great thing but it doesn't make the country as a whole blameless, just like a find act of a criminal does not excuse a crime.

I think that statements like yours are what is wrong with the UK at the moment, everyone is so afraid of being labelled racist or ignorant that we're all frightened to speak out against these terrible acts.

No one is afraid of being labelled as racist, I don't think many people, myself included, would deny that these acts are horrendous, and I certainly wasn't labelling anyone as racist. Every politician in the country has condemned it. I really think that this 'afraid of speaking out' is nonsense, and far from what is wrong with our country.

You shouldn't throw those words around when what the pp said was accurate anyway. She wasn't being ignorant, it was a pretty accurate description of a terrorist surely?

1) If you believe in souls at all, who is anyone to decide absolutely who has one or not? It's ridiculous. And it's also silly to assume that evil and compassion are mutually exclusive. Everyone has the capacity to do evil, and to an extent everyone does. The vast majority of people have the capacity for compassion. And yes it is stupid to say someone has no compassion because they commit an evil act. Anyway, if these people were without souls, as they have been described, these acts would not take place. The problem is that while they are atrocious and disgusting acts, to see them as evil for the sake of evil is counterproductive, because it means we cannot effectively solve the problem because we are not understanding it or addressing the source. Fact is, awful as they are, they are not without purpose (and no, I do not agree with the purpose, but it cannot be denied that there is one). To these people the reason behind these acts is incredibly potent and something they feel is vitally important. Extreme acts, especially in large organised forms, rarely happen without an equally extreme reason.

If we are going to stop this then we need to take responsibility for our wrongs and try to right them. Stopping Western based companies from committing atrocities against people in Eastern countries is just one thing we could do.

I get what you are saying, but tbh it makes me cringe a bit.

The radical views from groups like ISIS go against what the Muslim faith believes. They may not like our ways, or how 'sexualized' our nations are but one of the firm beliefs of the Quaran is that you do not harm another individual.

There are so many of that faith, and I want to say like 98% of that faith are just as horrified with what is going on as we are. But to read it like that, it sounds like you're tarring the entire faith with the same brush.

It makes me uncomfortable to have an entire religion based on a small sect of wingnuts. My family is Baptist, and it'd be like comparing the entire Baptist faith to the Westboro Baptist Church - nothing could be further from that.

I am hoping when you say "Islam" and "Muslims" that you are talking about the radicals who are doing these horrid things and not of the faith in general.

 

[emyandpotato]

This isn't about big household brands though, not sure how this is relevant to extreme religious views? Which from my understanding was what this terrorist organisation was about?

It's in fact extremely relevant. There are so many things that have contributed to the rise of Islamism and many we are indeed blameless in, but in many we are not. Many, many large companies based in the West have caused suffering in Eastern countries. It happens continually, and so many of our large brand names are responsible. There have also been many campaigns to stop it but really no one cares. No one stops buying, no difference is made. One very recent example is the privatisation of large areas of water in Pakistan by Nestle in order to make mineral water to be sold in the West, forcing many out of their homes, and causing poverty, sickness and death. For many, the fact that we allow this, and support it with our trade, is basically an act of terrorism in itself. Like I said, this happens continually.

Then you have the fact that in countries where Islam is the main religion, the consumerist society, which is seen as very much 'Western' (and is to a large extent), is to a large extent completely at odds with Muslim values. Extensive consumerism, nudity presented in adverts, or immodest clothes and an obsession with beauty, idolisation of brands and lifestyles, all stand against Islamic values. And yet this consumer culture of the West is everywhere, directly contradicting the beliefs and lifestyles of many. Then there's the fact that there is often a very large rich-poor divide. If people living in extreme poverty are seeing the wealth of their country going seemingly directly on Western consumerist lifestyles, they are gong to rebel against the West, and for the most part this results in people attempting to return to 'true' Islamic values, and therefore acting more modestly, living more traditionally etc. For the vast majority this by no means results in terrorism, but for some, the combination of poverty, suffering, atrocities committed by Western companies, and a loss of their traditional values can lead to extremism in the form of terrorism.

We also mustn't forget that the West colonised many Muslim countries, forcing our values and laws on people, causing suffering and destroying traditions. Then we supported various corrupt leaders, including the Taliban. This not only fostered contempt of the West in Eastern countries, but to an extent it made the governments and religious institutions (Islam has no body of authority in the way that Catholics have the Pope, as it was destroyed) themselves unstable when they became independent, meaning that many Islamic countries have suffered poverty and unjust governments as an indirect consequence of Western greed and power.

Then there are the countless wars we have been involved in, rightly or wrongly, which, regardless of their intentions have caused the death and suffering of millions of innocent people. Many in the West are of the opinion that the Iraq war was largely about oil and so wealth and power in the West (again), so imagine your opinion of our ways if your home had been destroyed and members of your family killed for this reason. Then after we take action in countries, we often try to implement our ways of thinking. It isn't okay to do this any more than it is okay for others to insist that their way of thinking is correct and come to Britain and force change. I'm not talking major human rights issues either, because that is understandable. For example, after Saddam Hussein's death there was a whole thing about how the US didn't want to put a Muslim president in to power in Iraq... Like what the actual fuck?! It's a Muslim country and a Muslim president is as natural as a Christian or atheist leader would be in the West (and yes I would absolutely support a leader of any other religion in Britain/America but I am just drawing a comparison).

Then there are things like Gaza, which is directly supported by America's provision of military funding to Israel. Not to mention the fact that we, the West, took land from others and gave it to the Jewish people, which in turn has caused decades of death and suffering.

So no, we are not innocent. Totally to blame? Of course not. But I really think we need to try and understand their point of view because force alone will not stop the problem. It is like trying to solve a stomach ache with painkillers alone, and not addressing the food intolerance that is causing the problem in the first place.

Instead though, we are turning to hate and fear in equal measures. Religious intolerance in the West has dramatically increased. Racism has increased. And so the divide between the West and Islam, even in the West itself, is growing, and so will terrorism.

Our countries are not blameless?! Some of these fighters are from our countries! Countries that have provided them with a home, education, health care, religious freedom.

Providing health care etc. is a great thing but it doesn't make the country as a whole blameless, just like a find act of a criminal does not excuse a crime.

I think that statements like yours are what is wrong with the UK at the moment, everyone is so afraid of being labelled racist or ignorant that we're all frightened to speak out against these terrible acts.

No one is afraid of being labelled as racist, I don't think many people, myself included, would deny that these acts are horrendous, and I certainly wasn't labelling anyone as racist. Every politician in the country has condemned it. I really think that this 'afraid of speaking out' is nonsense, and far from what is wrong with our country.

You shouldn't throw those words around when what the pp said was accurate anyway. She wasn't being ignorant, it was a pretty accurate description of a terrorist surely?

1) If you believe in souls at all, who is anyone to decide absolutely who has one or not? It's ridiculous. And it's also silly to assume that evil and compassion are mutually exclusive. Everyone has the capacity to do evil, and to an extent everyone does. The vast majority of people have the capacity for compassion. And yes it is stupid to say someone has no compassion because they commit an evil act. Anyway, if these people were without souls, as they have been described, these acts would not take place. The problem is that while they are atrocious and disgusting acts, to see them as evil for the sake of evil is counterproductive, because it means we cannot effectively solve the problem because we are not understanding it or addressing the source. Fact is, awful as they are, they are not without purpose (and no, I do not agree with the purpose, but it cannot be denied that there is one). To these people the reason behind these acts is incredibly potent and something they feel is vitally important. Extreme acts, especially in large organised forms, rarely happen without an equally extreme reason.

If we are going to stop this then we need to take responsibility for our wrongs and try to right them. Stopping Western based companies from committing atrocities against people in Eastern countries is just one thing we could do.

I get what you are saying, but tbh it makes me cringe a bit.

The radical views from groups like ISIS go against what the Muslim faith believes. They may not like our ways, or how 'sexualized' our nations are but one of the firm beliefs of the Quaran is that you do not harm another individual.

There are so many of that faith, and I want to say like 98% of that faith are just as horrified with what is going on as we are. But to read it like that, it sounds like you're tarring the entire faith with the same brush.

It makes me uncomfortable to have an entire religion based on a small sect of wingnuts. My family is Baptist, and it'd be like comparing the entire Baptist faith to the Westboro Baptist Church - nothing could be further from that.

I am hoping when you say "Islam" and "Muslims" that you are talking about the radicals who are doing these horrid things and not of the faith in general.

I'm sorry hun but I just reread it and I really don't understand why it sounds like I'm trying to imply all Muslims are Islamists or members of ISIS? If you mean because I said the rise of Islamism, I can see what you mean, but Islamism is the term for Islam as a political ideology, realised in groups like ISIS, it isn't interchangeable with Islam. The other times I am talking about Islam and Muslims in general, unless I have said otherwise. Not at all because all Muslims are extremists- I have said it goes against what many Muslims would see as true Islam- but because this is an Islamic phenomenon that is happening in Muslim countries, and the members of ISIS identify as Muslims. Islamism is on the rise because of the factors that I mentioned, amongst many other things, and what I was trying to say is that people have become desperate and extremely unsatisfied with their country, their government, the world as it is, and so people are seeing Islamism as more and more appealing. Of course, not everyone by any means, but obviously it is happening, and certain things the West is doing/did contributed significantly. Again, I'm not saying we deserve it, or that it is justified, but it's a little like the Treaty of Versailles being a big factor in Hitler's rise to power. It doesn't excuse his actions, and it doesn't make the French and British responsible for the holocaust, but it's a big factor. The Treaty of Versailles couldn't be rectified by the time of the Second World War, but the difference here is that we can change things. Not to pacify ISIS, but perhaps to make the West seem less evil to young Muslims who are in danger of being brainwashed.

The last thing I was trying to suggest was that all Muslims were terrorists

 

[Button#]

I think it's very dangerous to see the perpetrators of these horrific acts as inhuman/ without souls/ monsters. In previous conflicts it has been friend against friend, neighbour against neighbour. These are human beings exactly the same as you or I. I highly doubt any of us or the people we know and love would do anything even remotely like this but I do think it's naive and dangerous to seperate ourselves so entirely from these people.

I think it is far too complicated to say them baddies, us goodies. I also think there will be serious political implications whether or not we get involved and it's very scary.

 

[Tiff]

I'm sorry hun but I just reread it and I really don't understand why it sounds like I'm trying to imply all Muslims are Islamists or members of ISIS? If you mean because I said the rise of Islamism, I can see what you mean, but Islamism is the term for Islam as a political ideology, realised in groups like ISIS, it isn't interchangeable with Islam. The other times I am talking about Islam and Muslims in general, unless I have said otherwise. Not at all because all Muslims are extremists- I have said it goes against what many Muslims would see as true Islam- but because this is an Islamic phenomenon that is happening in Muslim countries, and the members of ISIS identify as Muslims. Islamism is on the rise because of the factors that I mentioned, amongst many other things, and what I was trying to say is that people have become desperate and extremely unsatisfied with their country, their government, the world as it is, and so people are seeing Islamism as more and more appealing. Of course, not everyone by any means, but obviously it is happening, and certain things the West is doing/did contributed significantly. Again, I'm not saying we deserve it, or that it is justified, but it's a little like the Treaty of Versailles being a big factor in Hitler's rise to power. It doesn't excuse his actions, and it doesn't make the French and British responsible for the holocaust, but it's a big factor. The Treaty of Versailles couldn't be rectified by the time of the Second World War, but the difference here is that we can change things. Not to pacify ISIS, but perhaps to make the West seem less evil to young Muslims who are in danger of being brainwashed.

The last thing I was trying to suggest was that all Muslims were terrorists

Thank you for clarifying for me It was just the way it was worded that I was 'erm....' but those are my own personal feelings on it.

 

[emyandpotato]

I'm sorry hun but I just reread it and I really don't understand why it sounds like I'm trying to imply all Muslims are Islamists or members of ISIS? If you mean because I said the rise of Islamism, I can see what you mean, but Islamism is the term for Islam as a political ideology, realised in groups like ISIS, it isn't interchangeable with Islam. The other times I am talking about Islam and Muslims in general, unless I have said otherwise. Not at all because all Muslims are extremists- I have said it goes against what many Muslims would see as true Islam- but because this is an Islamic phenomenon that is happening in Muslim countries, and the members of ISIS identify as Muslims. Islamism is on the rise because of the factors that I mentioned, amongst many other things, and what I was trying to say is that people have become desperate and extremely unsatisfied with their country, their government, the world as it is, and so people are seeing Islamism as more and more appealing. Of course, not everyone by any means, but obviously it is happening, and certain things the West is doing/did contributed significantly. Again, I'm not saying we deserve it, or that it is justified, but it's a little like the Treaty of Versailles being a big factor in Hitler's rise to power. It doesn't excuse his actions, and it doesn't make the French and British responsible for the holocaust, but it's a big factor. The Treaty of Versailles couldn't be rectified by the time of the Second World War, but the difference here is that we can change things. Not to pacify ISIS, but perhaps to make the West seem less evil to young Muslims who are in danger of being brainwashed.

The last thing I was trying to suggest was that all Muslims were terrorists

Thank you for clarifying for me It was just the way it was worded that I was 'erm....' but those are my own personal feelings on it.

I'm sorry, I truly would never intend to imply that. I am absolutely mortified that it came off like that because it's the last thing I would want.

 

[Tiff]

Always the problem with reading text on a screen. I've done it too

 

[OmarsMum]

This isn't about big household brands though, not sure how this is relevant to extreme religious views? Which from my understanding was what this terrorist organisation was about?

It's in fact extremely relevant. There are so many things that have contributed to the rise of Islamism and many we are indeed blameless in, but in many we are not. Many, many large companies based in the West have caused suffering in Eastern countries. It happens continually, and so many of our large brand names are responsible. There have also been many campaigns to stop it but really no one cares. No one stops buying, no difference is made. One very recent example is the privatisation of large areas of water in Pakistan by Nestle in order to make mineral water to be sold in the West, forcing many out of their homes, and causing poverty, sickness and death. For many, the fact that we allow this, and support it with our trade, is basically an act of terrorism in itself. Like I said, this happens continually.

Then you have the fact that in countries where Islam is the main religion, the consumerist society, which is seen as very much 'Western' (and is to a large extent), is to a large extent completely at odds with Muslim values. Extensive consumerism, nudity presented in adverts, or immodest clothes and an obsession with beauty, idolisation of brands and lifestyles, all stand against Islamic values. And yet this consumer culture of the West is everywhere, directly contradicting the beliefs and lifestyles of many. Then there's the fact that there is often a very large rich-poor divide. If people living in extreme poverty are seeing the wealth of their country going seemingly directly on Western consumerist lifestyles, they are gong to rebel against the West, and for the most part this results in people attempting to return to 'true' Islamic values, and therefore acting more modestly, living more traditionally etc. For the vast majority this by no means results in terrorism, but for some, the combination of poverty, suffering, atrocities committed by Western companies, and a loss of their traditional values can lead to extremism in the form of terrorism.

We also mustn't forget that the West colonised many Muslim countries, forcing our values and laws on people, causing suffering and destroying traditions. Then we supported various corrupt leaders, including the Taliban. This not only fostered contempt of the West in Eastern countries, but to an extent it made the governments and religious institutions (Islam has no body of authority in the way that Catholics have the Pope, as it was destroyed) themselves unstable when they became independent, meaning that many Islamic countries have suffered poverty and unjust governments as an indirect consequence of Western greed and power.

Then there are the countless wars we have been involved in, rightly or wrongly, which, regardless of their intentions have caused the death and suffering of millions of innocent people. Many in the West are of the opinion that the Iraq war was largely about oil and so wealth and power in the West (again), so imagine your opinion of our ways if your home had been destroyed and members of your family killed for this reason. Then after we take action in countries, we often try to implement our ways of thinking. It isn't okay to do this any more than it is okay for others to insist that their way of thinking is correct and come to Britain and force change. I'm not talking major human rights issues either, because that is understandable. For example, after Saddam Hussein's death there was a whole thing about how the US didn't want to put a Muslim president in to power in Iraq... Like what the actual fuck?! It's a Muslim country and a Muslim president is as natural as a Christian or atheist leader would be in the West (and yes I would absolutely support a leader of any other religion in Britain/America but I am just drawing a comparison).

Then there are things like Gaza, which is directly supported by America's provision of military funding to Israel. Not to mention the fact that we, the West, took land from others and gave it to the Jewish people, which in turn has caused decades of death and suffering.

So no, we are not innocent. Totally to blame? Of course not. But I really think we need to try and understand their point of view because force alone will not stop the problem. It is like trying to solve a stomach ache with painkillers alone, and not addressing the food intolerance that is causing the problem in the first place.

Instead though, we are turning to hate and fear in equal measures. Religious intolerance in the West has dramatically increased. Racism has increased. And so the divide between the West and Islam, even in the West itself, is growing, and so will terrorism.

Our countries are not blameless?! Some of these fighters are from our countries! Countries that have provided them with a home, education, health care, religious freedom.

Providing health care etc. is a great thing but it doesn't make the country as a whole blameless, just like a find act of a criminal does not excuse a crime.

I think that statements like yours are what is wrong with the UK at the moment, everyone is so afraid of being labelled racist or ignorant that we're all frightened to speak out against these terrible acts.

No one is afraid of being labelled as racist, I don't think many people, myself included, would deny that these acts are horrendous, and I certainly wasn't labelling anyone as racist. Every politician in the country has condemned it. I really think that this 'afraid of speaking out' is nonsense, and far from what is wrong with our country.

You shouldn't throw those words around when what the pp said was accurate anyway. She wasn't being ignorant, it was a pretty accurate description of a terrorist surely?

1) If you believe in souls at all, who is anyone to decide absolutely who has one or not? It's ridiculous. And it's also silly to assume that evil and compassion are mutually exclusive. Everyone has the capacity to do evil, and to an extent everyone does. The vast majority of people have the capacity for compassion. And yes it is stupid to say someone has no compassion because they commit an evil act. Anyway, if these people were without souls, as they have been described, these acts would not take place. The problem is that while they are atrocious and disgusting acts, to see them as evil for the sake of evil is counterproductive, because it means we cannot effectively solve the problem because we are not understanding it or addressing the source. Fact is, awful as they are, they are not without purpose (and no, I do not agree with the purpose, but it cannot be denied that there is one). To these people the reason behind these acts is incredibly potent and something they feel is vitally important. Extreme acts, especially in large organised forms, rarely happen without an equally extreme reason.

If we are going to stop this then we need to take responsibility for our wrongs and try to right them. Stopping Western based companies from committing atrocities against people in Eastern countries is just one thing we could do.

I get what you are saying, but tbh it makes me cringe a bit.

The radical views from groups like ISIS go against what the Muslim faith believes. They may not like our ways, or how 'sexualized' our nations are but one of the firm beliefs of the Quaran is that you do not harm another individual.

There are so many of that faith, and I want to say like 98% of that faith are just as horrified with what is going on as we are. But to read it like that, it sounds like you're tarring the entire faith with the same brush.

It makes me uncomfortable to have an entire religion based on a small sect of wingnuts. My family is Baptist, and it'd be like comparing the entire Baptist faith to the Westboro Baptist Church - nothing could be further from that.

I am hoping when you say "Islam" and "Muslims" that you are talking about the radicals who are doing these horrid things and not of the faith in general.

This!

My friend's sister was killed by ISIS , a Muslim dentist who wears hijab & follows her religion, they killed her because she treats male patients

This is not Islam, we dont live in stone ages, we are educated, we respect other beliefs & religions,

Those said "Muslims" are KILLING muslims in Syria, those are extremist, I'm really shaken from the comments I read jn this thread

Have some respect & empathy, we as muslims are suffering big time from those extremists, the last thing we need to read those horrible comments about our religion, our religion promotes peace & equality in it's teachings. Quran does not encourage violence or killing, it is nowhere in the Quran.

& as for women's rights, please dont mix up cultural practices with Islam teachings, I have several degrees, I have feeedom, I have my own money which my husband have no right to touch, but I have the right to share his money, this is what our religion teaches, respect to women & their rights, I wear hijab because I want to, I wasnt forced, I chose to wear it.

All what you see in the news is pure politics, unless you are in our shoes please stop judging us

I lost many family members in this stupid war, do I blame Islam? Nope, islam didnt start it, btw our government in syria is not Islamic it is a communist government, it has always been against islam, the only way for this hatefull government to get some support on the war they started is to create a force working under the name of "Islam" to get some support from the Western society.

Now everyone forgot the war started by Al Asad & are focusing on the awful acts of ISIS that was created by Al Asad & his supporters.

We are sick from both parties, we want peace, we don't want more killing, I dont get enough sleep at night, if the phone rings my heart sinks, I always thing of the worst, I dont want to hear about more family members getting killed there. I dont even watch the news anymore, I cant see more blood, we are TIRED & DEAD from the inside, please please please stop considering us Muslims as terrorists, we are not, stop judging us!

 

[emyandpotato]

This isn't about big household brands though, not sure how this is relevant to extreme religious views? Which from my understanding was what this terrorist organisation was about?

It's in fact extremely relevant. There are so many things that have contributed to the rise of Islamism and many we are indeed blameless in, but in many we are not. Many, many large companies based in the West have caused suffering in Eastern countries. It happens continually, and so many of our large brand names are responsible. There have also been many campaigns to stop it but really no one cares. No one stops buying, no difference is made. One very recent example is the privatisation of large areas of water in Pakistan by Nestle in order to make mineral water to be sold in the West, forcing many out of their homes, and causing poverty, sickness and death. For many, the fact that we allow this, and support it with our trade, is basically an act of terrorism in itself. Like I said, this happens continually.

Then you have the fact that in countries where Islam is the main religion, the consumerist society, which is seen as very much 'Western' (and is to a large extent), is to a large extent completely at odds with Muslim values. Extensive consumerism, nudity presented in adverts, or immodest clothes and an obsession with beauty, idolisation of brands and lifestyles, all stand against Islamic values. And yet this consumer culture of the West is everywhere, directly contradicting the beliefs and lifestyles of many. Then there's the fact that there is often a very large rich-poor divide. If people living in extreme poverty are seeing the wealth of their country going seemingly directly on Western consumerist lifestyles, they are gong to rebel against the West, and for the most part this results in people attempting to return to 'true' Islamic values, and therefore acting more modestly, living more traditionally etc. For the vast majority this by no means results in terrorism, but for some, the combination of poverty, suffering, atrocities committed by Western companies, and a loss of their traditional values can lead to extremism in the form of terrorism.

We also mustn't forget that the West colonised many Muslim countries, forcing our values and laws on people, causing suffering and destroying traditions. Then we supported various corrupt leaders, including the Taliban. This not only fostered contempt of the West in Eastern countries, but to an extent it made the governments and religious institutions (Islam has no body of authority in the way that Catholics have the Pope, as it was destroyed) themselves unstable when they became independent, meaning that many Islamic countries have suffered poverty and unjust governments as an indirect consequence of Western greed and power.

Then there are the countless wars we have been involved in, rightly or wrongly, which, regardless of their intentions have caused the death and suffering of millions of innocent people. Many in the West are of the opinion that the Iraq war was largely about oil and so wealth and power in the West (again), so imagine your opinion of our ways if your home had been destroyed and members of your family killed for this reason. Then after we take action in countries, we often try to implement our ways of thinking. It isn't okay to do this any more than it is okay for others to insist that their way of thinking is correct and come to Britain and force change. I'm not talking major human rights issues either, because that is understandable. For example, after Saddam Hussein's death there was a whole thing about how the US didn't want to put a Muslim president in to power in Iraq... Like what the actual fuck?! It's a Muslim country and a Muslim president is as natural as a Christian or atheist leader would be in the West (and yes I would absolutely support a leader of any other religion in Britain/America but I am just drawing a comparison).

Then there are things like Gaza, which is directly supported by America's provision of military funding to Israel. Not to mention the fact that we, the West, took land from others and gave it to the Jewish people, which in turn has caused decades of death and suffering.

So no, we are not innocent. Totally to blame? Of course not. But I really think we need to try and understand their point of view because force alone will not stop the problem. It is like trying to solve a stomach ache with painkillers alone, and not addressing the food intolerance that is causing the problem in the first place.

Instead though, we are turning to hate and fear in equal measures. Religious intolerance in the West has dramatically increased. Racism has increased. And so the divide between the West and Islam, even in the West itself, is growing, and so will terrorism.

Our countries are not blameless?! Some of these fighters are from our countries! Countries that have provided them with a home, education, health care, religious freedom.

Providing health care etc. is a great thing but it doesn't make the country as a whole blameless, just like a find act of a criminal does not excuse a crime.

I think that statements like yours are what is wrong with the UK at the moment, everyone is so afraid of being labelled racist or ignorant that we're all frightened to speak out against these terrible acts.

No one is afraid of being labelled as racist, I don't think many people, myself included, would deny that these acts are horrendous, and I certainly wasn't labelling anyone as racist. Every politician in the country has condemned it. I really think that this 'afraid of speaking out' is nonsense, and far from what is wrong with our country.

You shouldn't throw those words around when what the pp said was accurate anyway. She wasn't being ignorant, it was a pretty accurate description of a terrorist surely?

1) If you believe in souls at all, who is anyone to decide absolutely who has one or not? It's ridiculous. And it's also silly to assume that evil and compassion are mutually exclusive. Everyone has the capacity to do evil, and to an extent everyone does. The vast majority of people have the capacity for compassion. And yes it is stupid to say someone has no compassion because they commit an evil act. Anyway, if these people were without souls, as they have been described, these acts would not take place. The problem is that while they are atrocious and disgusting acts, to see them as evil for the sake of evil is counterproductive, because it means we cannot effectively solve the problem because we are not understanding it or addressing the source. Fact is, awful as they are, they are not without purpose (and no, I do not agree with the purpose, but it cannot be denied that there is one). To these people the reason behind these acts is incredibly potent and something they feel is vitally important. Extreme acts, especially in large organised forms, rarely happen without an equally extreme reason.

If we are going to stop this then we need to take responsibility for our wrongs and try to right them. Stopping Western based companies from committing atrocities against people in Eastern countries is just one thing we could do.

I get what you are saying, but tbh it makes me cringe a bit.

The radical views from groups like ISIS go against what the Muslim faith believes. They may not like our ways, or how 'sexualized' our nations are but one of the firm beliefs of the Quaran is that you do not harm another individual.

There are so many of that faith, and I want to say like 98% of that faith are just as horrified with what is going on as we are. But to read it like that, it sounds like you're tarring the entire faith with the same brush.

It makes me uncomfortable to have an entire religion based on a small sect of wingnuts. My family is Baptist, and it'd be like comparing the entire Baptist faith to the Westboro Baptist Church - nothing could be further from that.

I am hoping when you say "Islam" and "Muslims" that you are talking about the radicals who are doing these horrid things and not of the faith in general.

This!

My friend's sister was killed by ISIS , a Muslim dentist who wears hijab & follows her religion, they killed her because she treats male patients

This is not Islam, we dont live in stone ages, we are educated, we respect other beliefs & religions,

Those said "Muslims" are KILLING muslims in Syria, those are extremist, I'm really shaken from the comments I read jn this thread

Have some respect & empathy, we as muslims are suffering big time from those extremists, the last thing we need to read those horrible comments about our religion, our religion promotes peace & equality in it's teachings. Quran does not encourage violence or killing, it is nowhere in the Quran.

& as for women's rights, please dont mix up cultural practices with Islam teachings, I have several degrees, I have feeedom, I have my own money which my husband have no right to touch, but I have the right to share his money, this is what our religion teaches, respect to women & their rights, I wear hijab because I want to, I wasnt forced, I chose to wear it.

All what you see in the news is pure politics, unless you are in our shoes please stop judging us

I lost many family members in this stupid war, do I blame Islam? Nope, islam didnt start it, btw our government in syria is not Islamic it is a communist government, it has always been against islam, the only way for this hatefull government to get some support on the war they started is to create a force working under the name of "Islam" to get some support from the Western society.

Now everyone forgot the war started by Al Asad & are focusing on the awful acts of ISIS that was created by Al Asad & his supporters.

We are sick from both parties, we want peace, we don't want more killing, I dont get enough sleep at night, if the phone rings my heart sinks, I always thing of the worst, I dont want to hear about more family members getting killed there. I dont even watch the news anymore, I cant see more blood, we are TIRED & DEAD from the inside, please please please stop considering us Muslims as terrorists, we are not, stop judging us!

Okay I am genuinely so gutted by these comments. I am so upset that I would have come across as anti Muslim in any way? I don't understand how it sounded anti Muslim at all? I talked about Muslims in Islamic countries because it is largely members of this (absolutely massive) group that join ISIS, and the factors that I mentioned affected this group and therefore a small number of extremists, from the huge number of Muslims, have formed groups such as ISIS. I'm very sorry if that in any way came across as all Muslims, but I really thought I had made it clear that I meant the tiny minority that is ISIS and similar groups. I never said anything hateful about Islam- in fact that I disagreed with someone's comments about Mohammed. I didn't mention women's rights. Seriously I'm so sorry to offend. I don't know what I've done to fuck up how I've written it this time, but I am so upset by this.

 

[emyandpotato]

Oh and if it's because I was saying that one contributing factor to the rise of Islamism is a rise in literacy... It was a quick reply, I was going to bed, but again I certainly did not mean that this affects all Muslims, only that is a factor that affects a very small minority that perhaps do have extremist views. I'm not just spouting crap to try to offend anyone, I have spent the past year studying this as part of my religious studies degree and it is considered to be a significant contributing factor to the rise of Islamism.

 

[Eleanor ace]

This isn't about big household brands though, not sure how this is relevant to extreme religious views? Which from my understanding was what this terrorist organisation was about?

It's in fact extremely relevant. There are so many things that have contributed to the rise of Islamism and many we are indeed blameless in, but in many we are not. Many, many large companies based in the West have caused suffering in Eastern countries. It happens continually, and so many of our large brand names are responsible. There have also been many campaigns to stop it but really no one cares. No one stops buying, no difference is made. One very recent example is the privatisation of large areas of water in Pakistan by Nestle in order to make mineral water to be sold in the West, forcing many out of their homes, and causing poverty, sickness and death. For many, the fact that we allow this, and support it with our trade, is basically an act of terrorism in itself. Like I said, this happens continually.

Then you have the fact that in countries where Islam is the main religion, the consumerist society, which is seen as very much 'Western' (and is to a large extent), is to a large extent completely at odds with Muslim values. Extensive consumerism, nudity presented in adverts, or immodest clothes and an obsession with beauty, idolisation of brands and lifestyles, all stand against Islamic values. And yet this consumer culture of the West is everywhere, directly contradicting the beliefs and lifestyles of many. Then there's the fact that there is often a very large rich-poor divide. If people living in extreme poverty are seeing the wealth of their country going seemingly directly on Western consumerist lifestyles, they are gong to rebel against the West, and for the most part this results in people attempting to return to 'true' Islamic values, and therefore acting more modestly, living more traditionally etc. For the vast majority this by no means results in terrorism, but for some, the combination of poverty, suffering, atrocities committed by Western companies, and a loss of their traditional values can lead to extremism in the form of terrorism.

We also mustn't forget that the West colonised many Muslim countries, forcing our values and laws on people, causing suffering and destroying traditions. Then we supported various corrupt leaders, including the Taliban. This not only fostered contempt of the West in Eastern countries, but to an extent it made the governments and religious institutions (Islam has no body of authority in the way that Catholics have the Pope, as it was destroyed) themselves unstable when they became independent, meaning that many Islamic countries have suffered poverty and unjust governments as an indirect consequence of Western greed and power.

Then there are the countless wars we have been involved in, rightly or wrongly, which, regardless of their intentions have caused the death and suffering of millions of innocent people. Many in the West are of the opinion that the Iraq war was largely about oil and so wealth and power in the West (again), so imagine your opinion of our ways if your home had been destroyed and members of your family killed for this reason. Then after we take action in countries, we often try to implement our ways of thinking. It isn't okay to do this any more than it is okay for others to insist that their way of thinking is correct and come to Britain and force change. I'm not talking major human rights issues either, because that is understandable. For example, after Saddam Hussein's death there was a whole thing about how the US didn't want to put a Muslim president in to power in Iraq... Like what the actual fuck?! It's a Muslim country and a Muslim president is as natural as a Christian or atheist leader would be in the West (and yes I would absolutely support a leader of any other religion in Britain/America but I am just drawing a comparison).

Then there are things like Gaza, which is directly supported by America's provision of military funding to Israel. Not to mention the fact that we, the West, took land from others and gave it to the Jewish people, which in turn has caused decades of death and suffering.

So no, we are not innocent. Totally to blame? Of course not. But I really think we need to try and understand their point of view because force alone will not stop the problem. It is like trying to solve a stomach ache with painkillers alone, and not addressing the food intolerance that is causing the problem in the first place.

Instead though, we are turning to hate and fear in equal measures. Religious intolerance in the West has dramatically increased. Racism has increased. And so the divide between the West and Islam, even in the West itself, is growing, and so will terrorism.

Our countries are not blameless?! Some of these fighters are from our countries! Countries that have provided them with a home, education, health care, religious freedom.

Providing health care etc. is a great thing but it doesn't make the country as a whole blameless, just like a find act of a criminal does not excuse a crime.

I think that statements like yours are what is wrong with the UK at the moment, everyone is so afraid of being labelled racist or ignorant that we're all frightened to speak out against these terrible acts.

No one is afraid of being labelled as racist, I don't think many people, myself included, would deny that these acts are horrendous, and I certainly wasn't labelling anyone as racist. Every politician in the country has condemned it. I really think that this 'afraid of speaking out' is nonsense, and far from what is wrong with our country.

You shouldn't throw those words around when what the pp said was accurate anyway. She wasn't being ignorant, it was a pretty accurate description of a terrorist surely?

1) If you believe in souls at all, who is anyone to decide absolutely who has one or not? It's ridiculous. And it's also silly to assume that evil and compassion are mutually exclusive. Everyone has the capacity to do evil, and to an extent everyone does. The vast majority of people have the capacity for compassion. And yes it is stupid to say someone has no compassion because they commit an evil act. Anyway, if these people were without souls, as they have been described, these acts would not take place. The problem is that while they are atrocious and disgusting acts, to see them as evil for the sake of evil is counterproductive, because it means we cannot effectively solve the problem because we are not understanding it or addressing the source. Fact is, awful as they are, they are not without purpose (and no, I do not agree with the purpose, but it cannot be denied that there is one). To these people the reason behind these acts is incredibly potent and something they feel is vitally important. Extreme acts, especially in large organised forms, rarely happen without an equally extreme reason.

If we are going to stop this then we need to take responsibility for our wrongs and try to right them. Stopping Western based companies from committing atrocities against people in Eastern countries is just one thing we could do.

I get what you are saying, but tbh it makes me cringe a bit.

The radical views from groups like ISIS go against what the Muslim faith believes. They may not like our ways, or how 'sexualized' our nations are but one of the firm beliefs of the Quaran is that you do not harm another individual.

There are so many of that faith, and I want to say like 98% of that faith are just as horrified with what is going on as we are. But to read it like that, it sounds like you're tarring the entire faith with the same brush.

It makes me uncomfortable to have an entire religion based on a small sect of wingnuts. My family is Baptist, and it'd be like comparing the entire Baptist faith to the Westboro Baptist Church - nothing could be further from that.

I am hoping when you say "Islam" and "Muslims" that you are talking about the radicals who are doing these horrid things and not of the faith in general.

This!

My friend's sister was killed by ISIS , a Muslim dentist who wears hijab & follows her religion, they killed her because she treats male patients

This is not Islam, we dont live in stone ages, we are educated, we respect other beliefs & religions,

Those said "Muslims" are KILLING muslims in Syria, those are extremist, I'm really shaken from the comments I read jn this thread

Have some respect & empathy, we as muslims are suffering big time from those extremists, the last thing we need to read those horrible comments about our religion, our religion promotes peace & equality in it's teachings. Quran does not encourage violence or killing, it is nowhere in the Quran.

& as for women's rights, please dont mix up cultural practices with Islam teachings, I have several degrees, I have feeedom, I have my own money which my husband have no right to touch, but I have the right to share his money, this is what our religion teaches, respect to women & their rights, I wear hijab because I want to, I wasnt forced, I chose to wear it.

All what you see in the news is pure politics, unless you are in our shoes please stop judging us

I lost many family members in this stupid war, do I blame Islam? Nope, islam didnt start it, btw our government in syria is not Islamic it is a communist government, it has always been against islam, the only way for this hatefull government to get some support on the war they started is to create a force working under the name of "Islam" to get some support from the Western society.

Now everyone forgot the war started by Al Asad & are focusing on the awful acts of ISIS that was created by Al Asad & his supporters.

We are sick from both parties, we want peace, we don't want more killing, I dont get enough sleep at night, if the phone rings my heart sinks, I always thing of the worst, I dont want to hear about more family members getting killed there. I dont even watch the news anymore, I cant see more blood, we are TIRED & DEAD from the inside, please please please stop considering us Muslims as terrorists, we are not, stop judging us!

I'm so sorry for what you and your family are going through . It is awful and heartbreaking to see how people are suffering, I can't imagine how horrific it is when your loved ones are at risk .

I'm not sure how Emy's post has been taken as disrespectful or as blaming Islam for the situation in Syria; rather she is trying to explain that while some media sources would have people believe that Islam=terrorism and therefore Islam is to blame for the conflict this just isn't the case. She has brought up several different factors which many people believe have contributed to the conflict (global politics, the istory of Western interference and the marginalising of religions including Islam in some Western countries), none of which blame Islam.
The use of the term Islamism I can see causing confussion. In RS study in the UK Islamism is the term used to describe militant Islam/movements who pass themself off as Muslim but in fact go against the teachings of the Quran.

 

[Tiff]

I think you nailed it, Eleanor!

Here, "Islamism" would mean the entire faith. Groups like ISIS (etc) would be called extremists. That would clear up the confusion on my part. Its tough when different cultures have different words/meanings about things.

Case in point: Here, the term "spazz" isn't seen as offensive. If you say you are a spazz or someone is being a spazz it means you're being silly, ditzy etc. But I've had a few strips torn off me from some ladies across the pond as it is a very derogatory word to some people. I was mortified.

Nora, it really is awful what is going on.

 

[OmarsMum]

I'm not referring to Emy's post ops sorry , I even thanked Emy for her post as I agreed with it, I quoted Tiff's post as I agreed with it without reading what she was quoting.

My comment was general, I wasn't referring a specific post xx

Sorry it was 1 am when I posted