Monogamy

[chellebelle8]

IMO there's a definite correlation between countries that don't see women as equals and polygamy being common practice....there is no getting away from it. If my fiance told me he wanted to take another wife along with me I would personally feel undervalued and inadequate but if you are raised in a culture or country where multiple wives etc is normal you will perhaps not know any different and therefore accept it ..but polygamy is definitely not for me...I can not get my head around sharing my partner ...he's my world...along with my children of course.

 

[Ozzieshunni]

Interesting. In a lot of African cultures, women are seen as the leaders of tribes.

 

[BintUmmi]

Name a country where polygamy is the legal, accepted norm and a woman is allowed to do ALL of these things:

1. vote
2 Drive a car
3. Expose her hair, ankles or legs in public
4. obtain a divorce as easily as a man
5. choose her marriage partner
6. have a job outside the home.
7. attend college
8. buy an item in a store with a picture of a woman on it.

The last item is in direct relation to the following story about the new IKEA catalog.
https://kdvr.com/2012/10/02/images-of-women-airbrushed-out-of-ikeas-saudi-catalog/

Now, maybe a woman doesn't want to do any of those things because that is how she has been brought up/indoctrinated. But you can't expect people accustomed to a more free society to not have a visceral response to that kind of treatment of women.

These are your values on what you see as rights for women or your concept of equality. Not everyone sees it in the same way and that's fine. Of course if you've been raised in a culture with different morals/standards other cultures are most likely not going to 'live up to them' that doesn't make them inferior on the issue of women in society or any other issue. With all due respect the West or western liberal ideas are not the yard stick for measuring the 'progression' of other societies.

 

[Tiff]

I'm still confused by the whole polygamy thing. If no one is being forced to do something they don't want to do, there's no rape or abuse I personally don't find its my buisness to say what they are doing is wrong.

But still, I really don't understand the want/desire to HAVE a polygamous relationship. I guess I can kinda get it from a male standpoint, but I don't know any guy around here who'd want to have more than one wife. One is enough I guess.

Does anybody know the benefits of having one? More kids is one, I think I read that earlier. But what else? More sense of community? Larger family bonds?

 

[summer rain]

Name a country where polygamy is the legal, accepted norm and a woman is allowed to do ALL of these things:

1. vote
2 Drive a car
3. Expose her hair, ankles or legs in public
4. obtain a divorce as easily as a man
5. choose her marriage partner
6. have a job outside the home.
7. attend college
8. buy an item in a store with a picture of a woman on it.

The last item is in direct relation to the following story about the new IKEA catalog.
https://kdvr.com/2012/10/02/images-of-women-airbrushed-out-of-ikeas-saudi-catalog/

Now, maybe a woman doesn't want to do any of those things because that is how she has been brought up/indoctrinated. But you can't expect people accustomed to a more free society to not have a visceral response to that kind of treatment of women.

I can think of several off the top of my head, Iran (the laws on hijab there do exist but are not upheld and its acceptable to wear capris a t-shirt and a bandana type scarf for example), the UAE, Malaysia, Indonesia, Brunei, Pakistan (although this varies regionally), Northern Sudan (though the only way it diesnt tick your boxes is its not a full democracy when there are votes women can take part), Sri Lanka, India (both countries polygamy is legal for Muslims), various West African countries and there are probably many others.

In Saudi they don't like to portray human beings full stop though yes in stores there you can buy foreign imported goods with pictures of women on I only went there in the Spring and the shops were full of hair and beauty products, foodstuffs etc and no pictures were blacked out. The only time in Saudi I've seen blacked out pictures is on paddling pools imported from the UK that were being sold in toys r us, the same toys r us were selling a lot of products with pictures of women and girls on so I can only assume it was the UK company who got busy with the pen believing they needed to be over zealous in doing so. I'm sure the ikea catalogue is a similar case in point. You can certainly buy quite risqué fashion and society magazines in Saudi as well that are not censored. As for women driving in Saudi the roads and drivers in Saudi are some of the most dangerous in the world and I'm not sure that I'd want to drive in those conditions. There is a decent taxi service operating in most cities though and it's very stringently controlled so its very safe and fares cost only a couple of quid.

But to judge whether a society that allows polygamy is oppressive on whether they black out pictures is ludicrous, Israel, polygamy isn't allows yet in many orthodox areas even cartoon pictures of little girls are obliterated from packaging, women's pictures are not in any newspaper, products in the supermarket are regularly censored by pen and by stickers. To a far greater extent than Saudi Arabia. Israel have their own strictly enforced dress codes in many areas as well and if they are not stuck to, modesty squads will be after you. Xx

 

[summer rain]

IMO there's a definite correlation between countries that don't see women as equals and polygamy being common practice....there is no getting away from it. If my fiance told me he wanted to take another wife along with me I would personally feel undervalued and inadequate but if you are raised in a culture or country where multiple wives etc is normal you will perhaps not know any different and therefore accept it ..but polygamy is definitely not for me...I can not get my head around sharing my partner ...he's my world...along with my children of course.

Most people I know living in polygamy are not from a culture where it is the norm so no it isn't that they just 'accepted it because they didn't know any different' xx

 

[Ozzieshunni]

What about a woman having many husbands? I don't think polygamy has to mean there is one man with many wives.

 

[summer rain]

I do think if I had been raised in a culture where polygamy was normal I would have a slightly different view. But I wasn't. So to me I've only seen bad examples and dysfunctional families with polygamy. I haven't seen a working polygamous family that upheld the wives. And tbh, tv doesn't help with Big Love and Sister Wives. I think Kody from Sister Wives is a jackass and non of the wives really look fulfilled. Maybe they would be unhappy too if they were all in monogamous marriages but the multiple wives seems to exacerbate the issues. But I've only watched a few episodes and lets face it- reality TV isn't reality.

I don't think humans only purpose for life is breeding new life. How awful would that be for someone who can't have children. They didn't fulfill their purpose? I think our purpose is to live, learn and leave the world and others better than when we came into it. Children are just a big part of our purpose but not the sole part.

I fully admit my experience with it is minimal at best. But it doesn't seem appealing as I like what I have anyway.

As long as everyone is happy and satisfied in their marriage plural or not, isn't that the main objective?

Who said polygamists only marry more than one wife for more children? This isn't the case except perhaps for some fundamentalist mormon sects. I know a lot of women who either cannot have children, cannot have more children and are divorced from the father of their children, or who don't want children and this is precisely why they chose polygamy because they can feel happy that the husband can have any children or more children with another wife, although on the whole I have noticed that the polygamous families I know tend to have fewer children than is average for their community. Most poly families that are not fundamentalist mormon don't have 16 children. Some even have none xx

 

[Ozzieshunni]

I do think if I had been raised in a culture where polygamy was normal I would have a slightly different view. But I wasn't. So to me I've only seen bad examples and dysfunctional families with polygamy. I haven't seen a working polygamous family that upheld the wives. And tbh, tv doesn't help with Big Love and Sister Wives. I think Kody from Sister Wives is a jackass and non of the wives really look fulfilled. Maybe they would be unhappy too if they were all in monogamous marriages but the multiple wives seems to exacerbate the issues. But I've only watched a few episodes and lets face it- reality TV isn't reality.

I don't think humans only purpose for life is breeding new life. How awful would that be for someone who can't have children. They didn't fulfill their purpose? I think our purpose is to live, learn and leave the world and others better than when we came into it. Children are just a big part of our purpose but not the sole part.

I fully admit my experience with it is minimal at best. But it doesn't seem appealing as I like what I have anyway.

As long as everyone is happy and satisfied in their marriage plural or not, isn't that the main objective?

Who said polygamists only marry more than one wife for more children? This isn't the case except perhaps for some fundamentalist mormon sects. I know a lot of women who either cannot have children, cannot have more children and are divorced from the father of their children, or who don't want children and this is precisely why they chose polygamy because they can feel happy that the husband can have any children or more children with another wife, although on the whole I have noticed that the polygamous families I know tend to have fewer children than is average for their community. Most poly families that are not fundamentalist mormon don't have 16 children. Some even have none xx

I think this is very true. We only hear about polygamy in the worst sense and that is what has developed our views of it.

 

[summer rain]

I'm still confused by the whole polygamy thing. If no one is being forced to do something they don't want to do, there's no rape or abuse I personally don't find its my buisness to say what they are doing is wrong.

But still, I really don't understand the want/desire to HAVE a polygamous relationship. I guess I can kinda get it from a male standpoint, but I don't know any guy around here who'd want to have more than one wife. One is enough I guess.

Does anybody know the benefits of having one? More kids is one, I think I read that earlier. But what else? More sense of community? Larger family bonds?

Yes more sense of community, as well as helping and supporting women who need a supporter and provider but for whatever reason don't feel like a monogamous marriage is for them. I knew an older Dutch revert to Islam living in the UK who had been on her own for years and had her own business and didn't want to feel in any way tied down so she married as a second wife and it suited her down to the ground. As I've mentioned before ladies who are done having kids or don't want kids often find polygamy suits them, Muslim cultures tend to be very child oriented and most Muslim men do want children. For various reasons adoption as it works in the west isnt allowed in Islam either, not that adopting is a feasible option for most couples anyway due to all the red tape. I've also heard of Muslim men who cannot have children marrying more than one wife who do have children from before he can treat as his own and it suits all parties xx

 

[Tiff]

Ahh excellent! Thank you so much for the input, its greatly appreciated. Does make sense from that angle/point of view.

 

[Kess]

The male is 'suppose' to try and make as many females as they can pregnant (looking at our closest relatives, the chimps) so when you look at it like that, we are not suppose to be married, we are not suppose to have one partner etc.

I would sort of disagree with that. I think people are supposed to have as many decendents as possible, which isn't quite the same as males impregnating as many females as possible - you have to do what you can to get those offspring to adulthood so they can breed, or the impregnating is pointless. There's a concept I read about called the monogamy threshold (or polygamy threshold if the species is moving the other way), at which is is worth it for an individual to break with the norm. E.g. imagine a polygynous species - in any polygynous species many males end up unmated as equal(ish) numbers of males and females are born but are not "shared equally" so to speak. In certain circumstances (related to availability/control of resources etc) it might be worthwhile for a female to mate monogamously with a left-over male and get his help with raising the offspring - the survival advantage to her offspring of having his undivided help and resources might outweigh the disadvantage of mating a "lesser" male IYSWIM? That's how species turn one way or the other, and why there's such a variety amongst, for example, the apes, from strictly monogamous gibbons through harem polygyny in gorillas to random anything-goes in bonobos. But it can also work on a societal or individual level in humans.

I wonder though if monogamy isn't the norm, as summer rain said. Seems to me that there are a lot more cultures around the world that do not having monogamous relationships.

Actually most relationships in the world are monogamous, but most cultures accept polygamy - in those cultures only 5-10% of the men have more than one wife if I remember the figures. My hunch is that our primary mating strategy as a species is flexibility. Probably primarily monogamy but with the option of polygyny, polyandry, or other possibilities dependent on local circumstances.

<snip>As I've mentioned before ladies who are done having kids or don't want kids often find polygamy suits them, Muslim cultures tend to be very child oriented and most Muslim men do want children. For various reasons adoption as it works in the west isnt allowed in Islam either, not that adopting is a feasible option for most couples anyway due to all the red tape. I've also heard of Muslim men who cannot have children marrying more than one wife who do have children from before he can treat as his own and it suits all parties xx

Could you elaborate a bit on why, SummerRain? I find learning about other cultures and religions fascinating, and whoever said upthread that we learn so much about Islam from you was spot on!

 

[Sarahkka]

actually most relationships in the world are monogamous, but most cultures accept polygamy - in those cultures only 5-10% of the men have more than one wife if i remember the figures. my hunch is that our primary mating strategy as a species is flexibility. probably primarily monogamy but with the option of polygyny, polyandry, or other possibilities dependent on local circumstances.

LOVE this!

 

[summer rain]

Adoption as it is in the west isn't allowed in Islam primarily for the reason that in most western countries when you adopt you then become the legal parent of that child, so on paper they will be recorded as being your child and your child only. Also in most cases the child's surname is changed to that of the adoptive parent and sometimes the forename as well. This is very problematic in Islam because you aren't allowed to claim, or assign to another person a lineage which does not belong to that person, also it's seen as taking away some basic rights of the birth parents regardless of how terrible they may be. Even if the birth parents are dead or unknown their rights are still sacrosanct. From the other side it isnt allowed for adopted children to inherit from their adoptive parents. Another issue is that Muslim women and men have to observe hijab and certain etiquettes around those who aren't their spouse or within a very limited set of blood relations and an adopted sibling or child would not count as one of these blood relations, so on a practical level for practicing Muslims this is quite a big problem. Islam does allow fostering and there is also a system of fostering via breastfeeding in Islam. It's just the type of adoption we have in the west isn't allowed. Xx