Monogamy

[KittyVentura]

Good question. The way we live is nothing like any other animal on this planet. We are so so so different. Even down to the fact we dress, have jobs, use money etc. Really basic things. We do SO much that no other animals do, or even come close to doing. The is also a lot that we don't do, so I don't see it as a shock that monogamy is in there. It's just one of a vast number of things that makes us so much more advanced than other life forms, so I don't think we are comparable.

Ultimately, as humans Monogamy seems (to the majority) to feel right. So that is what we do.

Simple as that really.

 

[lindseymw]

Interesting topic.

See to me, in very basic terms we are animals, we have one main purpose in life which is to breed. The male is 'suppose' to try and make as many females as they can pregnant (looking at our closest relatives, the chimps) so when you look at it like that, we are not suppose to be married, we are not suppose to have one partner etc.

However, we have come along way from being animalistic. I do however, believe that monogamy is down to it being the 'norm' in most areas (at least around here it is) so society tends to follow what the norm is. Marriage to me, basically is a bit of paper showing that I stood up in front of a load of people saying "I love you" to my DH and vice versa. I don't think I could go for the polygamy relationship myself but then it could be because I was raised within a monogamy society.

 

[Ozzieshunni]

I wonder though if monogamy isn't the norm, as summer rain said. Seems to me that there are a lot more cultures around the world that do not having monogamous relationships.

 

[lindseymw]

I wonder though if monogamy isn't the norm, as summer rain said. Seems to me that there are a lot more cultures around the world that do not having monogamous relationships.

I know from where I am, monogamy is the norm. I don't know a single person(s) that follow a polygamy relationship. I believe it is the general norm in the UK (will have to do some research though as I could just be naive to that fact!). Worldwide, I do think that polygamy is more widely acceptable in more cultures/countries than what we think (again, will have to research this!).

 

[Sarahkka]

Sarah, I've had plenty of Women's Studies in university as well, and the bulk of it came from working 3 semesters at a graduate level under a Nigerian professor. I stand by my use of the word "evolved" in relation to the status of women in a society and the acceptance of polygamy. And I had a young Muslim woman in one of my classes explain that because of her hijab, she wouldn't have to "sleep with the boss", "be raped" or "forced into an abortion" like "all the other American women."

If I had been born in Pakistan or in a northern Nigerian village, then maybe I would have a completely different opinion of myself, my value as a person, and what I would expect from a relationship and out of life in general. But I wasn't. And that doesn't make an evil "imperialist." Think we don't all judge from a cultural perspective? How many American women get raped on the job as my fellow classmate thought?

I didn't use the word "evil" - be fair.
Of course we are all going to view the world through our particular lens, but western culture has imposed our way on many other cultures and has a pretty crummy history of assuming our way of doing things as the best way. Look at any culture that was colonized by Europeans and you'll find evidence of it.
No, Western cultures are not the only imperial force (I feel like I'm talking about storm troopers! ), but we are one of the most recent and we do have one of the worst track records. And I think we do have to be vigilant with ourselves that we don't fall into that ingrained pattern of cultural superiority.
I know that a lot of your examples (which were very valid!) have to do with the status of women when you were making your point about "evolved" societies, but we do have to allow the women within the societies to decide for themselves if their models are working, respectful constructs, don't we? summer rain and peanut76 have given several models/explanations of why polygamy is a successful family unit. To declare those family units as less evolved because they don't fit your definition is being superior, isn't it?
And while your Muslim student may exaggerate slightly, North American women do face a very high risk of sexual assault in their lifetime, let alone the sexual harassment, slut-shaming, and all the other sexual objectification-related delights that we have to warn our daughters about. She had a very valid point.
Does this mean that her culture is better? Nope. And heaven knows the east and west sure could use some time trying to understand each other better. But part of achieving that genuine respect and peace is NOT making sweeping judgements on each other, right?

Am really enjoying this discussion, everyone! Thanks for all the great posts!

 

[louandivy]

Surely there are spouses who are disrespectful/ unfaithful/ abusive one each side of this debate? I really doubt that one side are all good and the other are all bad. There have been a few stereotypes on both sides. In my experience, monogomy does not equate to a husband who cheats/ uses prostitutes/spends all day and night on an X-box. Perhaps if we are calling for respectful language to be used in relation to polygamy then it should be used on both sides?

For me, if you are not willing to commit to one person then I am not sure why you married? That is my experience and opinion but accept that is not the case for everyone.

I have brought up the issue of the use of emoticons on numerous times and have been told that they are just smilies and to get over it. Hmmm. Using and in a debate in relation to someone else and their opinion is just uncalled for. You may not agree but it changes a debate about a subject into something far more personal.

I agree with the emoticons. There are a couple (those named, in particular) that can quickly skew the meaning of a text towards disrespect.

Personally, monogamy and the nuclear family unit works for me, but I think assuming that "marriage" means monogamy for everyone is an example of the western perspective being imposed on the rest of the world as the right way to do things. I know that is not at all what you are saying, and you clarified that further in your paragraph, but isn't a big part of this debate also about those ingrained cultural perspectives? The loaded language has come almost exclusively from those vigorously defending monogamy, as if monogamy is the accepted norm and everything else is "other". Obviously, us westerners are going to have that perspective, but I think it's good for all of us to try to crack that open a bit and empathize with another viewpoint. Westerners generally regard breaking monogamy as the dissolution of the family unit and frequently, women who experience the breakdown of a monogamous relationship also experience some pretty disrespectful and emotional situations (cheating spouses, for example) - maybe even disproportionately so. So, I understand why we defend monogamy in terms that include "selfish" or "lack of self-control". These are emotional terms describing emotional situations that many of us have firsthand experience in.
However, it is a form of cultural imperialism to assume that polygamy is "less evolved" or that it is inferior and must be less respectful to women. We are viewing it only through our own lens, and that can mean that we miss or disregard some important things.
Can I offer an example from my early days in Women's Studies in university? Like many other western women, I regarded the hijab as a symbol of male domination - forcing women to cover up and reducing their freedom of choice. I was shocked to find many Muslim feminists were very supportive of the hijab, stating that the covering freed them from the sexual objectification that western women were prone to and allowing them to remove the obstacle of attractiveness and to instead have their ideas and voices be taken more seriously. That blew my 18-year old mind, and I have tried to pay attention to that lesson ever since.
For the record, I am not pro- or anti-polygamy. I think it is just another example of a family unit that works. I think it is fascinating that we outlaw it here and I question (along with Tasha) that those laws have any thing to do with morals. I think those laws merely support Western conventions. It will be interesting to see if those laws do become more inclusive. With gay marriage being recognized and legitimized, I think we are being forced to redefine what marriage is and that's a good thing, in my opinion.
That was rather lengthy, but I was trying to clarify my earlier post about loaded language!

This is the best bnb post ever!

 

[JASMAK]

Surely there are spouses who are disrespectful/ unfaithful/ abusive one each side of this debate? I really doubt that one side are all good and the other are all bad. There have been a few stereotypes on both sides. In my experience, monogomy does not equate to a husband who cheats/ uses prostitutes/spends all day and night on an X-box. Perhaps if we are calling for respectful language to be used in relation to polygamy then it should be used on both sides?

For me, if you are not willing to commit to one person then I am not sure why you married? That is my experience and opinion but accept that is not the case for everyone.

I have brought up the issue of the use of emoticons on numerous times and have been told that they are just smilies and to get over it. Hmmm. Using and in a debate in relation to someone else and their opinion is just uncalled for. You may not agree but it changes a debate about a subject into something far more personal.

I agree with the emoticons. There are a couple (those named, in particular) that can quickly skew the meaning of a text towards disrespect.

Personally, monogamy and the nuclear family unit works for me, but I think assuming that "marriage" means monogamy for everyone is an example of the western perspective being imposed on the rest of the world as the right way to do things. I know that is not at all what you are saying, and you clarified that further in your paragraph, but isn't a big part of this debate also about those ingrained cultural perspectives? The loaded language has come almost exclusively from those vigorously defending monogamy, as if monogamy is the accepted norm and everything else is "other". Obviously, us westerners are going to have that perspective, but I think it's good for all of us to try to crack that open a bit and empathize with another viewpoint. Westerners generally regard breaking monogamy as the dissolution of the family unit and frequently, women who experience the breakdown of a monogamous relationship also experience some pretty disrespectful and emotional situations (cheating spouses, for example) - maybe even disproportionately so. So, I understand why we defend monogamy in terms that include "selfish" or "lack of self-control". These are emotional terms describing emotional situations that many of us have firsthand experience in.
However, it is a form of cultural imperialism to assume that polygamy is "less evolved" or that it is inferior and must be less respectful to women. We are viewing it only through our own lens, and that can mean that we miss or disregard some important things.
Can I offer an example from my early days in Women's Studies in university? Like many other western women, I regarded the hijab as a symbol of male domination - forcing women to cover up and reducing their freedom of choice. I was shocked to find many Muslim feminists were very supportive of the hijab, stating that the covering freed them from the sexual objectification that western women were prone to and allowing them to remove the obstacle of attractiveness and to instead have their ideas and voices be taken more seriously. That blew my 18-year old mind, and I have tried to pay attention to that lesson ever since.
For the record, I am not pro- or anti-polygamy. I think it is just another example of a family unit that works. I think it is fascinating that we outlaw it here and I question (along with Tasha) that those laws have any thing to do with morals. I think those laws merely support Western conventions. It will be interesting to see if those laws do become more inclusive. With gay marriage being recognized and legitimized, I think we are being forced to redefine what marriage is and that's a good thing, in my opinion.
That was rather lengthy, but I was trying to clarify my earlier post about loaded language!

This is the best bnb post ever!

I agree! The only thing I wanted to say is that HERE, in my province, the prime example (and perhaps only example?) of polygamy is Bountiful with inbreed, child forced marriage, rape, and abuse!! In fact, that is the only vision I had of polygamy until this thread and posts by Summer espesially, so, even tho I have learned that there is other types of cultures who somehow make it work, I am still against it. Perhaps if I knew more, or saw it IR, I would be able to understand?

 

[Jaylynne]

I do think if I had been raised in a culture where polygamy was normal I would have a slightly different view. But I wasn't. So to me I've only seen bad examples and dysfunctional families with polygamy. I haven't seen a working polygamous family that upheld the wives. And tbh, tv doesn't help with Big Love and Sister Wives. I think Kody from Sister Wives is a jackass and non of the wives really look fulfilled. Maybe they would be unhappy too if they were all in monogamous marriages but the multiple wives seems to exacerbate the issues. But I've only watched a few episodes and lets face it- reality TV isn't reality.

I don't think humans only purpose for life is breeding new life. How awful would that be for someone who can't have children. They didn't fulfill their purpose? I think our purpose is to live, learn and leave the world and others better than when we came into it. Children are just a big part of our purpose but not the sole part.

I fully admit my experience with it is minimal at best. But it doesn't seem appealing as I like what I have anyway.

As long as everyone is happy and satisfied in their marriage plural or not, isn't that the main objective?

 

[vintage67]

Name a country where polygamy is the legal, accepted norm and a woman is allowed to do ALL of these things:

1. vote
2 Drive a car
3. Expose her hair, ankles or legs in public
4. obtain a divorce as easily as a man
5. choose her marriage partner
6. have a job outside the home.
7. attend college
8. buy an item in a store with a picture of a woman on it.

The last item is in direct relation to the following story about the new IKEA catalog.
https://kdvr.com/2012/10/02/images-of-women-airbrushed-out-of-ikeas-saudi-catalog/

Now, maybe a woman doesn't want to do any of those things because that is how she has been brought up/indoctrinated. But you can't expect people accustomed to a more free society to not have a visceral response to that kind of treatment of women.

 

[Sarahkka]

I agree! The only thing I wanted to say is that HERE, in my province, the prime example (and perhaps only example?) of polygamy is Bountiful with inbreed, child forced marriage, rape, and abuse!! In fact, that is the only vision I had of polygamy until this thread and posts by Summer espesially, so, even tho I have learned that there is other types of cultures who somehow make it work, I am still against it. Perhaps if I knew more, or saw it IR, I would be able to understand?

JASMAK - I definitely agree with you on that one! I grew up only a few hours from there and heard some pretty awful stories. Bountiful was one of the examples I was thinking of when I said that we have mostly negative examples of polygamy here.

 

[Jaylynne]

Name a country where polygamy is the legal, accepted norm and a woman is allowed to do ALL of these things:

1. vote
2 Drive a car
3. Expose her hair, ankles or legs in public
4. obtain a divorce as easily as a man
5. choose her marriage partner
6. have a job outside the home.
7. attend college
8. buy an item in a store with a picture of a woman on it.

The last item is in direct relation to the following story about the new IKEA catalog.
https://kdvr.com/2012/10/02/images-of-women-airbrushed-out-of-ikeas-saudi-catalog/

Now, maybe a woman doesn't want to do any of those things because that is how she has been brought up/indoctrinated. But you can't expect people accustomed to a more free society to not have a visceral response to that kind of treatment of women.

Interesting question. I'd love to see the answer. Maybe that will help make up my mind.

 

[Sarahkka]

I do think if I had been raised in a culture where polygamy was normal I would have a slightly different view. But I wasn't. So to me I've only seen bad examples and dysfunctional families with polygamy. I haven't seen a working polygamous family that upheld the wives. And tbh, tv doesn't help with Big Love and Sister Wives. I think Kody from Sister Wives is a jackass and non of the wives really look fulfilled. Maybe they would be unhappy too if they were all in monogamous marriages but the multiple wives seems to exacerbate the issues. But I've only watched a few episodes and lets face it- reality TV isn't reality.

I don't think humans only purpose for life is breeding new life. How awful would that be for someone who can't have children. They didn't fulfill their purpose? I think our purpose is to live, learn and leave the world and others better than when we came into it. Children are just a big part of our purpose but not the sole part.

I fully admit my experience with it is minimal at best. But it doesn't seem appealing as I like what I have anyway.

As long as everyone is happy and satisfied in their marriage plural or not, isn't that the main objective?

I think what was meant here was that the accepted driving force behind reproductive behaviour in all species is the urge to pass on your genes. Of course it is far more complicated than that for humans, but if we were strictly talking biology, then that is our "purpose".

And yes, I agree with your last statement - if the marriage works for all parties involved, then

 

[vintage67]

Women who were brought up in countries where monogamy is the norm and women are more equal in society will still sometimes choose these unions of course, but it is not that common.

Why they would choose this life may be difficult to comprehend but lots of people's choices are difficult to comprehend. It isn't that I'm intellectually incapable of understanding a woman not from that background actually choosing to live that way; it is a visceral response and an academic one based on the nature of societies that maintain a grossly inequal power structure and attempt to thrive on economies that hold back half of their intellectual talent (women) from the workforce.

In a western country where the practice would be "illegal" it would exist underground and very often these families are really soaking the social services system, such as the Fundamentalist Mormom sects in Utah and Texas in the United States.

 

[Sarahkka]

Name a country where polygamy is the legal, accepted norm and a woman is allowed to do ALL of these things:

1. vote
2 Drive a car
3. Expose her hair, ankles or legs in public
4. obtain a divorce as easily as a man
5. choose her marriage partner
6. have a job outside the home.
7. attend college
8. buy an item in a store with a picture of a woman on it.

The last item is in direct relation to the following story about the new IKEA catalog.
https://kdvr.com/2012/10/02/images-of-women-airbrushed-out-of-ikeas-saudi-catalog/

Now, maybe a woman doesn't want to do any of those things because that is how she has been brought up/indoctrinated. But you can't expect people accustomed to a more free society to not have a visceral response to that kind of treatment of women.

I can't name a country off the top of my head. And I do hear what you are saying. It's just that I don't think it is accurate to equate all polygamy with automatic suppression of women.
I would also respond that your list is only partially human rights-based. Many of those items are important to you because you are a westerner and were brought up to believe that they are of paramount importance to your happiness.
Choosing your marriage partner for example - many Asian cultures use matchmakers and neither the bride nor the groom chooses. That is the norm there. This is being challenged somewhat as western ideas infiltrate the culture, but many believe very strongly that arranged marriages work very well.
A visceral response is one thing - I am not sure we can help that.
But understanding and accepting that there are other ways to live and that they work, too - that requires us to step back, take a breath, and accept that the things we hold sacred may not mean all that much to someone else. When you are talking about voting, education choices, etc - I agree with you that women everywhere need our support on that, but polygamy does not equal suppression. For some women, it offers them more power and more choices.

 

[Peanut78]

Name a country where polygamy is the legal, accepted norm and a woman is allowed to do ALL of these things:

1. vote
2 Drive a car
3. Expose her hair, ankles or legs in public
4. obtain a divorce as easily as a man
5. choose her marriage partner
6. have a job outside the home.
7. attend college
8. buy an item in a store with a picture of a woman on it.

The last item is in direct relation to the following story about the new IKEA catalog.
https://kdvr.com/2012/10/02/images-of-women-airbrushed-out-of-ikeas-saudi-catalog/

Now, maybe a woman doesn't want to do any of those things because that is how she has been brought up/indoctrinated. But you can't expect people accustomed to a more free society to not have a visceral response to that kind of treatment of women.

I can't name a country off the top of my head. And I do hear what you are saying. It's just that I don't think it is accurate to equate all polygamy with automatic suppression of women.
I would also respond that your list is only partially human rights-based. Many of those items are important to you because you are a westerner and were brought up to believe that they are of paramount importance to your happiness.
Choosing your marriage partner for example - many Asian cultures use matchmakers and neither the bride nor the groom chooses. That is the norm there. This is being challenged somewhat as western ideas infiltrate the culture, but many believe very strongly that arranged marriages work very well.
A visceral response is one thing - I am not sure we can help that.
But understanding and accepting that there are other ways to live and that they work, too - that requires us to step back, take a breath, and accept that the things we hold sacred may not mean all that much to someone else. When you are talking about voting, education choices, etc - I agree with you that women everywhere need our support on that, but polygamy does not equal suppression. For some women, it offers them more power and more choices.

Off the top of my head Kenya, South Africa, South Sudan, I know there are more in West Africa as well.

When we talk about "choosing" a partner, I think we need to be clear that there is a difference between "arranged" marriage and "forced" marriage.

I am not sure I see the relevance of showing her hair, exposing ankles in public. I think there is often an assumption that women who cover don't also choose to do so, and are automatically oppressed. I have worked in Pakistan both urban and rural areas and can tell you that they would not describe it as such. To them this is their choice. Sorry, slightly off topic....

 

[vintage67]

Polygamy is not legal in Kenya or South Africa. There is a lot of outcry to ban it in South Sudan.

The issue of dress related to choice is relevant in that is the "dress code" enforced by legal means including punishments? That is why I included it. If you want to cover that's one thing but if you will be chased down the streets for not doing it, that's another.

And I'm aware that some cultures "arrange" marriages but the two parties still get a final say. This is certainly not the case in the arranged marriages that occur in some polygamous sects.

 

[vintage67]

https://untimes.org/details/392


https://www.gurtong.net/ECM/Editori...ther-South-Sudan-National-Social-Problem.aspx

South Sudan.

I'm sure there are "rosier scenarios" in polygamous societies to be found. But the criticisms of polygamy as being destructive to women are not all coming out of western (white) mouths. Just as my University's Women's Studies department had many women from all over the world and I do not recall any being pro-polygamy. They were able to cite childcare and house management advantages but that's where it ended. I did meet many students who were all for it, but then again I even met a student who fully supported the "honor death" of her "promiscuous" aunt. The world is full of ideas and neither I nor anyone else has to approve of them.

 

[Peanut78]

Polygamy is not legal in Kenya or South Africa. There is a lot of outcry to ban it in South Sudan.

The issue of dress related to choice is relevant in that is the "dress code" enforced by legal means including punishments? That is why I included it. If you want to cover that's one thing but if you will be chased down the streets for not doing it, that's another.

And I'm aware that some cultures "arrange" marriages but the two parties still get a final say. This is certainly not the case in the arranged marriages that occur in some polygamous sects.

Under customary law, which is how most people are married it is legal. Customary law is hugely important (if not more important than national law) if you are talking about African contexts - the two co-exist and are largely formally recognized, it is how most people and communities live by (and yes, there is often a direct contradiction between customary and national law). President Zuma of South Africa has more than one wife for example.

Yes, I am sure there are people who believe ploygamy should be banned in South Sudan. But having spent 3 years of my life living in South Sudan working with women and children in international child protection, I also know from first hand experience that many would also not agree with this (although like I say, I am sure some would). I wouldn't go as far as to say there is an "outcry" against polygamy in SS, although I would say there is an "outcry" to address underage and forced marriage... That is my opinion...

 

[Tasha]

Just wanted to say I am finding this so interesting.

 

[Ozzieshunni]

Peanut, your experiences are very interesting! I'd love to hear more!

Polygamy may not be legal in the US, but there are examples of families that do practice it that are not abusive or sexually abuse their children.