Prisoners and children... What do you think?

[SnuggleMum]

When people come out after long stretches, it cant be easy for them to integrate if they havent been learning skills (for those that need to) and keeping their minds active.

I worked in a clothes shop once and at 9am when we opened, a man came in (in december) dressed in jeans and a t-shirt in the freezing cold with a carrier bag containing release papers (which he lost twice in the shop! Since he was used to having no responsibility for things) and £45 i think it was. He came to buy a jacket and jeans. But he had no idea what size trousers he wore! He said it was 10 years since he went in and life just isnt the same. He was the most pleasant customer id had in a long time but it was so clear he was completely lost and i really hope he didnt go back to prison but it was clear from talking to him that prison had become his life. It was a shame really.

What a sad story, and not a surprise that he had no idea what size trousers he wore. A relative of mine spent a year inside, and in that time lost 6 stone (he wasn't that enormous) because the food was so awful and all he could to stop going mad was to do push-ups. Reminds me of a sad giraffe I saw at the zoo once that just walked round and round and round (it wasn't allowed outside for some reason I forget).

 

[SnuggleMum]

Why does a prisoner doing life deserve any human rights? He violated and probably destroyed someone elses rights as it is.

I'm completely against it.

Because someone doesn't stop being human just because they do something dreadful. If you say only some humans can have human rights, it destroys the whole idea of them. No-one should be able to judge that someone is not worthy of human rights.

There are millions of complex things that contribute to who a person is. People aren't raised in happy, healthy homes, treated reasonably and then wake up one day and decide to be evil - a lifetime of things (and genetics) shape them into who they are. Yes, the rights of the law-abiding society, and the protection of people should come first, but why treat people inhumanely when it doesn't actually have any benefit to anyone but a few people who like vengeance?

 

[honeybee2]

Why does a prisoner doing life deserve any human rights? He violated and probably destroyed someone elses rights as it is.

I'm completely against it.

Because someone doesn't stop being human just because they do something dreadful. If you say only some humans can have human rights, it destroys the whole idea of them. No-one should be able to judge that someone is not worthy of human rights.

There are millions of complex things that contribute to who a person is. People aren't raised in happy, healthy homes, treated reasonably and then wake up one day and decide to be evil - a lifetime of things (and genetics) shape them into who they are. Yes, the rights of the law-abiding society, and the protection of people should come first, but why treat people inhumanely when it doesn't actually have any benefit to anyone but a few people who like vengeance?

You have a point. BUT IVF treatment is a privilege and should be treated as such. Why should he be allowed that privilege?

 

[honeybee2]

And whilst I agree two wrongs don't make a right- is there any sense in giving this man this privilege when so many other deserving people can't have it? I know its a good thing to demonstrate human rights but surely this is also suggesting a lot of negative aspects? If the government are giving out expensive NHS funded IVF (among other 'human rights') then where is the lesson learnt from this for other people who are considering breaking the law?

Also, I've been on the IVF NHS list. We didn't need it thankfully. BUT, interestingly, you get questioned on your mental wellbeing etc. I personally know a couple who were refused IVF because of the amount of depression drugs she had been prescribed.

How is that fair? She can't have a child because she gets depressed and yet a life timer gets granted IFV treatment?

Please dont think I'm tryong to offend anyone. I can't imagine what partners have to go through when someone gets put in prison, but it just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[smelly07]

I want to comment but i cant get my thoughts into words.....i'm trying .....so i hope this makes sense.

Its easy to judge others, but until you walk in their shoes you dont know how you would feel or react ... if your dad, brother, uncle, cousin, husband or SON was in that situation.
SOME people do make horrid mistakes, things may happen that werent intended, LIFER yes means something awful happened, but doesnt always mean that the person is an awful person iykwim it doesnt mean that they are considered 'HIGH RISK' it doesnt mean they will do the same crime again when out of prison......

serial killers, serial rapists, peodaphiles etc....cat A prsioners....high risk prisoners...........Humans..... where there is obviously something not wired correctly i assume would never be granted this right regardless............. i am sure that this certain prisoners situtation has been given a great deal of thought and consideration before granting him and his wife the opportunity to have children.

 

[honeybee2]

I want to comment but i cant get my thoughts into words.....i'm trying .....so i hope this makes sense.

Its easy to judge others, but until you walk in their shoes you dont know how you would feel or react ... if your dad, brother, uncle, cousin, husband or SON was in that situation.
SOME people do make horrid mistakes, things may happen that werent intended, LIFER yes means something awful happened, but doesnt always mean that the person is an awful person iykwim it doesnt mean that they are considered 'HIGH RISK' it doesnt mean they will do the same crime again when out of prison......

serial killers, serial rapists, peodaphiles etc....cat A prsioners....high risk prisoners...........Humans..... where there is obviously something not wired correctly i assume would never be granted this right regardless............. i am sure that this certain prisoners situtation has been given a great deal of thought and consideration before granting him and his wife the opportunity to have children.

I hope you're right. what was the crime- does anyone know?

 

[honeybee2]

his crime is unknown.

But surely, you don't just get life for anything?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uk...-granted-right-to-father-child-from-jail.html

Also, this statement is exactly what I was trying to say.

'Ministers argued that missing the chance to have children was a consequence of being in prison and that granting inmates the right to do so would hit the public's faith in the justice system....Blair Gibbs, head of crime and justice at the Policy Exchange think tank, said: "Prison is our society's most serious punishment and it needs to be protected from the human rights industry that seems to want to turn it into a minor inconvenience." '

And 20k of tax payers money?

Rediculous!


....it goes on....

'Mr Davies, MP for Shipley, accused Mr Clarke of helping the European Court of Human Rights extend too many rights to prisoners, adding: "The whole point of being in prison is that your liberties are taken away from you?

"The public are sick to the back teeth of the human rights of criminals being put before the rights of decent law-abiding people, victims and taxpayers."

Human rights laws have already been used by foreign prisoners to win the right to remain in Britain, and to force the government to hand prisoners the right to vote. '

This is exactly how I feel about the situation. The fact is- no one is saying he can't have children, but why should tax payers fund something so precious to someone who has abused the law?

 

[smelly07]

I understand honeybee..... its tough i see both sides....I dont think the majority of 'lifers' would even consider bringing a baby into the world, knowing they wont be there for the birth, to kiss them good night or the first day of school and how tough it would be for them as well as their child etc etc

not all prisoners have the right to vote, only prisoners who have been sentenced to a year or less are able to vote though.

 

[holly2234]

I dont think its fair to say that one person "deserves" a child more than another person. He obviously did something wrong, thats something we all agree on! But his wife? Why should she not have children because of what he did? And she may not want a sperm donor. If she is entitled to IVF free in her area, why cant she? We need to remember there are two people in this story. One broke the law, one didnt and she merely wants a child with her husband.

To say who is more deserving is like saying a 15 year old with no income or partner or house doesnt deserve her baby because of the situation but a 30 something couple who have been trying for years deserve it more. No person deserves to be denied children no matter how ideal the situation. And lets face it, people pay taxes anyway, id rather that woman get her baby than the prime minister getting a better christmas party!

 

[lhancock90]

Whilst in prison, things change, you shouldn't be handed IVF on the NHS. The fact is that many many people deserving of IVF won't get it, but because this man is a prisoner who splashed himself across the papers he will get it, its wrong. What about the human rights of those who were affected by his crime? Which on a life sentence, must've been awful.

 

[SnuggleMum]

Whilst in prison, things change, you shouldn't be handed IVF on the NHS. The fact is that many many people deserving of IVF won't get it, but because this man is a prisoner who splashed himself across the papers he will get it, its wrong. What about the human rights of those who were affected by his crime? Which on a life sentence, must've been awful.

There have been two successful applications since 2007, with 16 applications rejected. From what the article says, they can apply for the right to use artifical insemination (with a cost up to £2,000). I think the IVF bill per year is about £400 million a year. So about £4,000 out of maybe £2 Billion. (I don't know if costs have gone up in recent years?)

I can't imagine the criteria for IVF would be easier for those in prison (2 out of 16 applications being accepted) - I wonder what acceptance rates are in general population? In my area in 2009, 425/465 applications were successful. 12.5% compared to over 92%.

I think either IVF is a medical issue, in which case whatever someone has done, they should be entitled if they are medically entitled, or it should be an ethical thing, in which case all people should be judged before being decided entitled.

 

[honeybee2]

Whilst in prison, things change, you shouldn't be handed IVF on the NHS. The fact is that many many people deserving of IVF won't get it, but because this man is a prisoner who splashed himself across the papers he will get it, its wrong. What about the human rights of those who were affected by his crime? Which on a life sentence, must've been awful.

There have been two successful applications since 2007, with 16 applications rejected. From what the article says, they can apply for the right to use artifical insemination (with a cost up to £2,000). I think the IVF bill per year is about £400 million a year. So about £4,000 out of maybe £2 Billion. (I don't know if costs have gone up in recent years?)

I can't imagine the criteria for IVF would be easier for those in prison (2 out of 16 applications being accepted) - I wonder what acceptance rates are in general population? In my area in 2009, 425/465 applications were successful. 12.5% compared to over 92%.

I think either IVF is a medical issue, in which case whatever someone has done, they should be entitled if they are medically entitled, or it should be an ethical thing, in which case all people should be judged before being decided entitled.

I think it is treated as a medical issue- but you still need to meet the criteria in order to be granted it. Like I said before, a couple were denied because the lady had been prescribed anti depressants and they concluded she was in no fit state to be granted the IVF. So how is his fit state better than hers? He must have had a moment of complete 'madness' to be able to commit a crime which sees you in prison for a life sentance?

 

[smelly07]

Like i said before we dont know what happened, doesnt mean this person is 'mad' just because they got a life sentence.... it could of been a fight gone very wrong, it could of been a driver who killed someone by careless driving...... People just read the words 'LIFER' 'IVF' 'NHS' 'HUMAN RIGHTS' and judge on the basis of what they read in the media, like snugglemum said not all Prisoners have been granted this right, so everyone is being assessed accordingly on their situation just like anyone else would here on the outside.

plus the justice system is completley screwed, i have no faith in it... some guilty get let free, some innocents locked up, lower sentences for some higher for others even if its a worser crime!!! its all bollocks really.

 

[Redhead84]

Like i said before we dont know what happened, doesnt mean this person is 'mad' just because they got a life sentence.... it could of been a fight gone very wrong, it could of been a driver who killed someone by careless driving...... People just read the words 'LIFER' 'IVF' 'NHS' 'HUMAN RIGHTS' and judge on the basis of what they read in the media, like snugglemum said not all Prisoners have been granted this right, so everyone is being assessed accordingly on their situation just like anyone else would here on the outside.

plus the justice system is completley screwed, i have no faith in it... some guilty get let free, some innocents locked up, lower sentences for some higher for others even if its a worser crime!!! its all bollocks really.

This would not attract life - my OH went to prison for dangerous driving where the injured party was a hairs breadth and one wrong decision away from dying - he got 12 months..he was also banned from driving for 3 years.. he'd have probably got 4 had he died, thankfully for all concerned he didn't.

Interestingly, you mention differing sentences. Not long after my OH's case, a civilian member of the Police in Cumbria was driving along the A66, on a clear stretch of road where visibility was over a mile - he crashed at speed into the back of a horse drawn carriage going towards the Appleby Fair and killed the occupants... He got, from memory, a 12 month sentence and a 2 year ban (or something close to that)... less than my OH who killed nobody.

There are no winners from prison- none at all. Everyone, from victim, their family and friends... to the perp and their family and friends, loses. All are changed in one way or another by the experience.

Yes, it is about punishment - however, how many need be punished, and for how long?

 

[smelly07]

Someone in my town did get a life sentence for killing someone through drink driving however the difference was he only had to serve a short amount of that time compared to someone who unintentionally kills someone by other means..... he was speeding, went through red lights and was way over the limit and killed someone HOWEVER my uncle was killed by a lady applying lipstick whilst driving ...she went up on the kerb and knocked my uncle over.... he was walking home from work and he died instantly, she had her license taking away and that was it.

TBH i think just because something happens in a car people shouldnt get lighter sentences, its actually disgusting, how are these people any less responsible than anyone else iykwim..........



anyway sorry OP going off topic!!! ha ha