Sleep Training - Full Extinction Method

[Kage76]

I would up the solids to at least 2 -3 meals a day and offer as many bottles as you have been- as the solids go up he will drop bottles on his own. It may not help- in some babies it makes no difference- but for us- sophie only started to stretch out her sleep when she ate more food.

 

[BlueHadeda]

He doesn't have diagnosed reflux. Just to clarify. He's never gotten medicated for any health-issue and so far 4 separate drs have told me that he has no digestive issues. However we did switch him to soy formula at 6 months (against the drs advice) because he spit up SO much on dairy formula from 0-6months and I thought it was a combo issue of dairy and reflux.

The reason I don't think that he wakes up because of pain is because if he is being held he will sleep happily but even put down sitting or inclined in a stroller he will cry the same way that he did in his crib. (He's suuuuper needy during the day - so I wear him A LOT - even to go pee! - but I need a little space at night. He definitely wouldn't be held 1/4 as much if he went to a daycare but his insane clingy-ness is making me consider it more seriously.)

We give him water. And while he may be teething - he's never been an offical 'sttn'er (we never made it to 5 hours.) so at a certain point things need to change/be changed.

Just to reply to that part of your post. I have acid reflux (GERD) and to be honest, when I wake up at night with my throat on fire, I long for my mom. Yes, I'm almost 40, but when I'm in pain, I want my mommy. She's long gone dead, but that's beside the point. All my children though, when they're ill and feel like crap, they will stop crying when I hold them. Even if their head still feels like bursting, or their nose is still stuffy, or they're still coughing their lungs raw, they will stop crying when I hold and comfort them. Same with a reflux baby. They need their mom, because they feel like crap. Being held or sit upright might keep the milk/food down a bit more than when you lie down, but once the damage in the throat is done, it HURTS. Water/milk sooths that pain, so that's why reflux babies like to suck constantly or regularly. I can't go 2 hours without drinking something, because my throat would be aflamed and so painful. That's why it upsets me so much when people tell me that they stopped providing their baby with fluids in the night "because they don't need it". Well, I'm almost 40 and I still need fluids at night. Because of my silent reflux. How do we know what our babies go through and why they cry?

You need to do what you need to do, I just wanted to give my perspective from a person who daily/nightly goes through reflux and can voice what we experience.

 

[Lilmiss1]

I was under the impression that if there is little improvement after two weeks that the sleep training method is unsuitable for that child. I also think that your lo might be confused as he's napping in your arms and then in cot at bedtime. Does he nap in the car / buggy? Might help him with independent sleeping.
Also if you think your lo has silent reflux you could request medication like ranitidine from your dr to give it a try.
I hope things get better for you soon x

 

[Mummy Bean]

Sorry havent read all the replies. but i have an 8 month old that does not sleep through the night. since the 4 month regression we have be co sleeping but this had to stop as im returning to work in jan.

Firstly we started sleep training at 7 months as i felt he was ready but he has hit a massive sleep regression atm...and when i posted about it on here it seems there a few of us with 8ish month old which have turned real grumpy and anything i did ...did not help. fortunatly it seems we are leaving that phase and the only thing i have found to worknis sheer consistancy. that i ensure for every nap, bed time, night waking i do the exact same thing. where i put him in his cot shss him for 1 min then give him a kiss say sleepy time and leave for 10 min (for night wakings i leave him for 10min after the first wimper). and then go in and calm him for 1min before leaving. and repeating process ( basically the ferber method) but originally like you i only did it a night, but since i started doing it at all sleep times has it made a difference.

These past three nights ive noticed a massive difference. and he sleeping longer stretches. his naps are no where near as long as if i were cuddling him but they are improving slowly.

i read over my response and feel maybe im harsh on my son but in three weeks i simply wont be around most of the time so i need to ensure he can get to sleep with out me. we set rules that we never leave him intotal for more the hour (with checks of course) and we listen to his cries if it proper sad screaming then i always attend straight away as cc simply wont work that time.

Sorry rambling and prob not much help. but good luck i hope u find some thing that works x

 

[valleygrl]

I did extinction with my dd and it has worked really well. I did it for anytime that she goes to sleep. I'm wondering if there is some confusion because you treat naps differently by holding him. I know it may be a rough few days, but maybe try extinction for naps too. He may just be confused.

 

[special_kala]

What is full extinction method? Do you just ignore them completely ?

 

[missmayhem]

hiya, can i just check you son has no medical conditions??? or isn't unwell?

 

[mommy0629]

You said you tried 4 other sleep training methods that didn't work, Which ones?

By his age babies really need a strong schedual to their days in order to feel secure. If a baby or young child doesn't feel secure, there's no way they're going to sleep, play or do anything on their own. So, first off, if he's not on a schedual/routine get him on one. I also agree that 3 good solid meals a day is needed at this point and LOTS of stimulation and activity during the day. When babies have a routine and schedual they know what's coming next and the world is much less scary when it's predictable .

I'm not condeming you for letting him CIO, I FULLY understand your frustration, but I do have to tell you that if it's not working at all, it's not going to and not only that, I guarantee that if it hasn't helped and you keep doing it, it's just making it worse. He's going to associate his crib with fear and abandonment, not sleep.

I think you need to really spend some time working on his seperation anxiety too. There are things you can do and games you can play to help (think peek-a-boo). Also, spend some time during the day that's NOT nap time hanging out with him in his bedroom and let him sit in his crib with a toy or two while you're sitting right next to him encouraging him that's it's not a scary place.

Honestly hun, if you keep just letting him cry in his crib he's just going to hate it there more and more.

 

[Ozzieshunni]

Mine isn't on a fixed schedule or routine and I assure you, he is VERY secure. Please don't generalize.

 

[smileygurl85]

@lilmiss1 - He doesn't sleep in the car (lots of fun since we live at least 30 mins from 'civilization' and he screams from when he gets put into his car seat until we get where we're going or until he does fall asleep - usually 5mins before we arrive at our destination.) He will sleep for a maximum of 20 minutes in the stroller - but I need to walk him for at least 40 minutes to get him to sleep for that long - so it's just not worth it - because he won't sleep a 2nd cycle even if we're still moving.

@missmayhem - As I posted earlier - the baby does not have any diagnosed medical conditions (we have seen a number of pediatricians and asked at the baby-wellness-clinic and they all agree that he is 100% healthy.) He is also not sick - not even a runny nose or a cough.

@mommy0629 - I guess when I break it down we tried more than 4 things. But just to clarify - he goes to bed with little to no fuss at bedtime. Our problem is that he wakes up multiple times throughout the night and only wants to be picked up, cuddled and then to sleep on us for the remainder of the night. We started with what seemed like the 'most gentle' and have moved to what most would consider the 'most extreme'.
1. We started with the pick up/put down (after 2 weeks he STILL would scream when put down, and quiet immediately upon being picked up - again and again and again),
2. then for 2 weeks we tried the jiggling in the crib - while shushing for upwards of 30minutes (basically until our arms had gone numb) meanwhile he never actually stopped crying from when we came in until we'd give up and carry/rock him to sleep then let him sleep ON TOP of us for the night - (waking up to jiggle him back to sleep every 45 minutes through the entire night.),
3. We reverted at this point and for about 2.5 weeks we were walking him back to sleep (by walking I mean - laps in the apartment - 11 steps in each direction - for a grand total of at least 30 minutes until he'd fall asleep - this is literally how I lost all of the pregnancy weight. I walked him to sleep for a minimum of 2 hours every single day (with night-wakings and naps combined.)
4. We tried leaving him in his crib while I sat in the room on a chair and every night moved the chair a little further - except that he never stopped when the chair was in in the first position (it stayed right next to his crib for 2 weeks - while he screamed with me sitting right there.)
5. The we tried the whole 'intervals' crying it out for 1 week - but there was no improvement AT ALL during the week - we spent 8 nights going to him every 12 minutes and he would NOT calm down.
6. we eventually began full-elimination. when bedtime rolls around we did our bedtime routine - bottle, bath, pjs, book, g'nite to the rooms in the house, by then he'd go straight to sleep when put in his crib. Bedtime is between 6-7:30pm - but then he'd wake up multiple times starting from 10pm.

AGAIN as my original post explained - the issue is not bedtime - the issue is the multiple middle of the night wakings. He treats nighttime as daytime in a way - and will sleep for 1.5hour stretches at the longest before needing to be helped back to sleep. I can not continue to spend 6 of my 9 hours of nighttime walking the baby back to sleep.

Until now we've just been leaving him to cry when he wakes up in the middle of the night - but my question really was whether that is how the method is supposed to work. (ie: if bedtime is 7:30pm and wake-up-time is 5:00am - do you just pretend to not hear your baby between those hours? (The bedroom doors are open and our bedrooms are literally next door to each other with super-thin walls - obviously if he was crying in pain or fear I would go to him - but it is usually his just is whinywhiny 'pick me up I want to be held' cry which is why I have felt comfortable enough letting him cry himself back to sleep.)

 

[Noelle610]

I encourage you to rethink your approach to sleep training. I'm not against it (at all!), but if you've been trying total extinction for 4 weeks and it's not working.... it's not going to work for your baby. Weissbluth would agree. He says it should work in 3 days to a week or so, for most. It can take 2 weeks for more "spirited" kids. Anyway, to answer your original question, if you are using the total extinction method you would not go to your baby at all when they wake.

I think before using any sleep training, since you've tried multiple methods unsuccessfully, you may want to investigate why your LO is waking so frequently. How are his naps during the day? Could he be overtired? That's typically the culprit for multiple night wakings in a baby his age.

 

[missmayhem]

i really feel for you hun, i'm having similar issues due to reflux... well my daughter is.


we have found the putting damp cloths on her radiator have helped her sleep for longer, and controlled waking has also helped us.


untill a few days ago her reflux was so bad she would only sleep in her car sear upright.

 

[special_kala]

babies need a strong emotional base, they need complete trust in their care giver and they need security. They do not need a schedule to feel secure. What makes babies feel most secure is love and comfort.

Full extinction is CIO right? I dont think that promotes any of those things especially in a baby that has seperation anxiety.

 

[Ozzieshunni]

Four weeks? You need to rethink your approach I'm sorry to say.

 

[aliss]

If you are holding/rocking for naps and then bedtime is fine and then refusing to in (or going in & the leaving) at night wakeups then I'm sure the child is very confused which is why you're at week 4 now. You're saying, "I'll comfort you to sleep... sometimes..." and then the child is left crying during the night because he doesn't necessarily understand when?? If that makes sense.

I'm sorry you are so exhausted, but then I also don't think 3 wakeups at 8 months is unreasonable either. Exhausting yes, but not unreasonable. Is he going back to sleep after a feed or settle? Or does he just want to play??

 

[special_kala]

Willow was up every 2 hours at 8 months i swear. Would have killed for 3 times

 

[x Michelle x]

They do not need a schedule to feel secure.

I'm sorry but i disagree. My 'difficult' reflux son is 100% happier now we have a schedule of meals/milk/naps. Surely a happy, smiling, self settling, almost sttn through the night baby is secure.
I don't think is fair to generalize that all babies don't need a schedule to feel secure but it certainly helps with some of them.

 

[Celesse]

I think if a sleep training method has not worked after 4 weeks then it isn't working for that child. I've done CC with my daughter. It worked within 3 nights. I've also found night waking can go on after the child has learnt to self settle as sometimes they continue to need things during the night.

 

[hubblybubbly]

Willow was up every 2 hours at 8 months i swear. Would have killed for 3 times

Sorry to butt in....but....when did ywillow start sleeping through or waking less? And did you do anything to help her? And what did you do when she was waking that frequently?

My willow is waking up frequently, I'm ending up bed sharing, but with number two on the way I feel it's soon to be the end of this for us.

I say this on this thread as like the op we've been doing CIO the past 5 nights in desperation, as I had heard it could help night wakings as well as night sleep inducement.....it's not....

X

 

[Ozzieshunni]

If I could just add, Alex started self settling and sleeping longer around 11/12 months. No sleep training, nothing. We just put him down one night and he settled with me singing to him. Today, I came across him passed out in his travel cot when I put him in there with music to take a shower!