Sleep Training - Full Extinction Method

[Rhiannon]

what milk do you use hun? Enfamil AR is a godsend for relux as far as im concerned. but as other ladies have suggested try an extra solid meal a day. try and get a good nap routine going also to avoid LO getting overtired.

if your going to do CIO then youve got to stick to it solidly as otherwise its unfair to LO to change your mind xx

 

[_jellybean_]

We've been indulging him for naps during the day because otherwise he just won't take them. If he's held, walked, and shushed then sleeps ON us we can get him to take 90 minute naps, however if put down he'll wake up 20-45 mins later - even if we go in when he starts to stir and try to get him back down.

In the last month we try to make sure that he gets 3 naps a day - with 2 as a minimum. We try not to keep him up for more than 2.5 hours at a stretch - it usually takes about 15-20 minutes of walking to get him to sleep for a nap. (We're not bothering with sleep-training for the naps because I don't want to deal with a chronically overtired baby. We tried it a few times with the 'leave him in his crib for 1 hr and he'll realize that naptime is for sleeping' - but that failed miserably.)

He eats 5 bottles (180-210 ml each) - 6am, 9am, 12pm, 3pm, 6:30-7pm and he gets a 'solid' snack at 10-10:30ish and then a meal at 5pm (to help stretch to his last bottle) - he's not waking because he's hungry at night (because the few times we tried to offer him a bottle he actually refused it) he just wants to be cuddled and to sleep ON us. (It's not enough to let him sleep in our bed. He literally wants to be ON us - preferably walking.)

Hi hon. I didn't read any of the posts after this one, but maybe he's napping too much? My lo at eight months, iirc, only needed one nap a day, and usually only an hour or so.

 

[special_kala]

Willow was up every 2 hours at 8 months i swear. Would have killed for 3 times

Sorry to butt in....but....when did ywillow start sleeping through or waking less? And did you do anything to help her? And what did you do when she was waking that frequently?

My willow is waking up frequently, I'm ending up bed sharing, but with number two on the way I feel it's soon to be the end of this for us.

I say this on this thread as like the op we've been doing CIO the past 5 nights in desperation, as I had heard it could help night wakings as well as night sleep inducement.....it's not....

X

15 months, she self weaned and stopped being interested in co sleeping (she exclusively co slept). We put her in with her sister and she stopped waking up.

The last few days she's ended up in our bed at 2am but I'm sure it will pass soon enough.

I'm a firm believer that they will learn to sleep through when they are emotionally and physically ready.

 

[special_kala]

It's hard when they wake up a lot but I coped by just knowing it won't last forever

 

[polaris]

I really feel for you, it does sound like you have tried loads of things and nothing has really worked for you. I'm not against sleep training, including ones that involve crying, if the situation demands it. But I think if you are still in this situation four weeks on that it isn't working. If your gut feeling is telling you that you need to go to your baby in the night time, then I think you should follow that.

What does he do when he wakes up? I know you've said that it's not really a very distressed cry. I found with Thomas that there were some night wakings that I could ignore and that it was better not to go in to him as it only woke him up too much and he wouldn't go back to sleep. He would wake up and cry but it was a very specific cry that he did when transitioning between sleep cycles and also before naps. If I went in to him on these occasions he would generally have his eyes closed and I wouldn't be certain if he was awake or asleep. But other night wakings I couldn't ignore, the cry was different and I felt that he really needed/wanted me.

You know your baby best, if the night time crying feels tolerable to you as a mother, then it probably is OK. But it sounds like maybe your gut is telling you that it feels wrong and that you need to go to your baby. For me, ten to fifteen minutes of on-off trying-to-get-back-to-sleep crying is probably OK but crying for an hour definitely wouldn't feel OK to me. Also if the tone of the crying was different then I would go to him straight away, e.g. one time he got his arm caught in between the cot bars, totally different type of cry to his normal half-asleep crying.

I have to admit I would wonder about underlying reasons for the poor sleep. I know you've got him checked out medically already. I immediately wondered about allergies or other medical stuff, especially given that you have intolerances yourself. Also does he appear to suffer from separation anxiety during the day, this could be another factor? I think I would inclined to bite the bullet and try again to get him napping in the cot during the day. But I do understand your reasoning in trying to get him to nap whatever way works.

 

[amy19604]

Im not judging and not being horrible but i dont see the problem with him going to bed at 7-8, waking 3 times through the night then up at 5.30.
Honestly what do you expect?? That isnt bad at all !
Most babies dont sleep through the night.
my 8 month old goes to bed at 7, wakes several times a night including for 2 feeds and is up for the day at 5.30, and hardly naps during the day.
the best way to deal with it is to just accept it and ride it out. it will pass one day, but some children will always be terrible sleepers. my 2nd didnt sttn till she was 4 years old. but my first slept 8-8 at 2 months old. they are all different, there isnt a set age where they have to be sttn.
more solids might help.
also you say you still let him fall asleep on you during the day but that might be not helping as hes associating sleep with being on you but then at night you are saying he cant. have you tried rocking him in his buggy for day time naps?
i just think ignoring them until morning is cruel, what if theres really some thing wrong. theres gentler ways to get them sleeping alone.

 

[chell5544]

Im not judging and not being horrible but i dont see the problem with him going to bed at 7-8, waking 3 times through the night then up at 5.30.
Honestly what do you expect?? That isnt bad at all !
Most babies dont sleep through the night.
my 8 month old goes to bed at 7, wakes several times a night including for 2 feeds and is up for the day at 5.30, and hardly naps during the day.
the best way to deal with it is to just accept it and ride it out. it will pass one day, but some children will always be terrible sleepers. my 2nd didnt sttn till she was 4 years old. but my first slept 8-8 at 2 months old. they are all different, there isnt a set age where they have to be sttn.
more solids might help.
also you say you still let him fall asleep on you during the day but that might be not helping as hes associating sleep with being on you but then at night you are saying he cant. have you tried rocking him in his buggy for day time naps?
i just think ignoring them until morning is cruel, what if theres really some thing wrong. theres gentler ways to get them sleeping alone.

correct me if im wrong OP but its not so much the wakings its the getting him back to sleep without having to hold and walk him back to sleep for the rest of the night.

OP i would differently suggest trying to tackle the napping on you during the day and try and get him into the cot and then hopefully the night time will come easier

 

[polaris]

correct me if im wrong OP but its not so much the wakings its the getting him back to sleep without having to hold and walk him back to sleep for the rest of the night.

Agreed, there's a big difference between dealing with three (or so) night wakings if the baby easily goes back to sleep after a feed or a bit of soothing. It's different if they are awake for hours after each waking.

 

[pinklightbulb]

I have sleep trained both of mine before the recommended age of 6mo.

That said, mine weren't reflux and I'd had them fully evaluated by a paediatrician to rule out any physical problems that might have been causing the bad sleep, or that might make it unsafe to use CC, before I started.

At that age I would expect 2-3 wakeups at the most, during the night that is. Very frustrating when you want your sleep back as it seems everyone else's STTN by then (Eamon didn't so I understand how you feel!)

The key if you're going to use any one method is to stick to it. No coddling for naps and then trying to use CC/CIO at night. It will only confuse the crap out of him if he truly is used to you settling him in the day. He won't understand why you aren't doing it at night as well.

I will keep up with this thread to see how you get on babe

 

[smileygurl85]

@chel5544 & @polaris - exactly! The waking don't bother me per se' it's the fact that he doesn't go back to sleep until an hour before the next waking. If it was a matter of popping out of bed for 10 or even 15 minutes three times every night I'd do it happily and just grin&bear the extra time giving love to my baby and helping him feel safe and secure. The issue is that he wakes up three times a night and doesn't want to play, and doesn't want to eat he just wants to cry and go back to sleep - preferably ON us - while we're walking to-boot and it takes him over an hour to settle at each of these wakings and takes close to 2 hours to get hm back down into his crib. At which point I have time to crawl back into bed and just fall asleep before the next waking.


@_jellybean_ - re: napping 'too much' - he's a mess after 2.5 hrs (whines even if being held, rubs eyes, spacey stares...) and when he doesn't nap the nighttime is even worse.

And yes - he has serious separation issues. I do wear him a lot on account of the fact that after a few weeks of literally not showering or eating I realized that the only way to get things done was to wear him. (For all of those who think it's evil to leave a baby crying in their crib at nighttime when it's supposed to be sleeping-time - how do you ever manage to eat or shower? What do you do with your baby when they shriek even in the bouncy seat IN the bathroom with you? Seems waaay worse to me to make them cry their hearts out during the day when there's no reason to. And you can't say 'shower while they sleep' because the kid wouldn't sleep - ever!) and for the record my daily shower has become a 2x/week shower on account of everything which grosses me out but there is iterally just not enough time in the day. I do have people come to help which is how I get those 2 showers in - so that's also not helpful advice.


The good news is - we finally got 2 decent nights of sleep (though I'm not holding my breath because he was pretty much exhausted going into the weekend on account of a few really bad nights and refusing to nap no matter what.) Today he took 1 nap in his crib and it was for a whole hour - so I was pretty excited.

We're going to try working on naps because he doesn't seem interested in more solids during the day and cries for his bottle. :-/ It's so frustrating because he's loved food since 4 months when we started solids on our drs recommendation (thats how the dr. 'Treated' my reflux suspicions. 'Start solids, no need for meds, it's because he's a baby...' *sigh*)

 

[seaweed eater]

I have no experience or words of wisdom to share, just want to give you -- it sounds like you care a lot about your baby and clearly this has not been an easy road for you.

 

[Ozzieshunni]

If he has reflux, that could be the root of all his sleep issues. He wants to be upright because it relieves his pain. I would go back to the doctor and demand the doctor look at the symptoms. You have to be an advocate for your child.

Alex was fine in the bouncey chair in the bathroom while I showered. The sound of the water and my voice calmed him down.

 

[missmayhem]

glad things are getting better for you hun and i pray they continue to do so

 

[Lilmiss1]

What symptoms of silent reflux does your ds have?
My ds was always difficult to wind, threw up a bit, arched his back a lot, always wanted to be held upright, very stiff. We first took him to an osteopath and then started him on medication. If the solids haven't helped, I think meds are worth a shot.

What is your routine for the day? 2.5 hour awake time is average for an 8 month old that just has two naps.

Do you help your lo exercise much during the day?

Do you use blackout blinds, white noise, pre nap routine like a short story?

We transitioned ds to napping in the cot from holding him at about 9 months. I first got him used to sleeping on the bed next to me for a week. Then I started putting him in his cot and patting him the whole nap for a week, then I left my hand on his chest while napping for a week. Over this time I noticed that he woke up at 30 minute mark when his breathing became shallow so the following week I left the nursery but went in at 25 minutes to pat him through the transition. All this wasn't always successful every time and he still sometimes wakes after 30 minutes. I also did wake to sleep

Does your ds wake at a particular time every night? If so you could try wake to sleep.

Have you considered co sleeping?

I hope one of the points I've mentioned helps you.

All the best. Sleep deprivation is awful. X

 

[Natasha2605]

I won't really comment on the nature of 'full extinction' but tbh if it is not working after four weeks you really need to rethink your method. 4 weeks of upset that isn't helping during the night shows that it's not the right method for your LO. I know how it feels to be sleep deprived. I had a baby waking 12+ times a night and I'd be up in the morning for work. It's one of those things. For us, CC worked. Can your LO hold their own bottle? In the need when Maci wakes she feeds herself back to sleep and has done for a little while now. xx

 

[Eve]

********Know that the Weissbluth method for sleep training focuses on eliminating crying in different ways, depending on the how receptive the parents are in regards to allowing the child to cry it out. The most common Weissbluth method is the "extinction" method where a child is allowed to cry it out indefinitely at bedtime and for an hour at nap time. Follow the regular bedtime routine with your child and put him to bed. Leave the room and don't go back in. At nap time, allow for up to one hour of crying. If the child is still crying after the hour, soothe the child and try again at a later time.*********

Is this the method you are using? Doing so for 4 weeks without desired results?

 

[jd83]

If your doctor didn't actually test tor reflux, and just told you to "treat" it by giving solids, I'd be insisting on the tests or seeking a new doctor. If you are strongly suspecting your baby has it, treatment with meds could make a world of difference.

Also, if it hasn't worked in 4 weeks I would def modify what you are doing. I agree with pp that probably the best approach is to work on his daytimes naps. If he is getting to the point of showing tired cues, he is already overtired. Try to get him to nap before he starts to look tired, and his naps should improve. If my sons go down for a nap overtired, they don't sleep as well or as long.

 

[smileygurl85]

The good news is that we've now had 4 nights of good sleep in a row. The bad news is that baby and I both got sick. He's got a cold and I've got fever. He's like his daddy though and when sick just wants to sleep extra (when he's awake he's all smiley and zooming around chasing cheerios - he just has an annoying sounding cough.)

The reason that we stuck with the method for so long is because Buzz is an EXTREMELY stubborn baby. It's the reason he's formula fed (had his posterior tongue-tie snipped at 3 days the day my milk came in and gave me nasty double mastitis that turned my boobs to hot, red, bowling balls that he refused to latch on to anymore even with 7 lactation consultants help over 3 horrible weeks) and the reason that he's slept on his stomach since 14 wks, because otherwise he literally wouldn't close his eyes. In addition - the method was working after a week but we then encountered an extinction burst which lasted for about a week, followed by slight improvement then another extinction burst. (Two steps forward, one step back style.) Thankfully we seem to be in an 'improvement' swing right now - I'm hopeful that we won't experience another burst.

I guess I should never have mentioned the 'R' (reflux) word in an earlier post because that is all that everyone seems to focus on. And insinuating that I haven't advocated for the situation to improve seems pretty derogatory and mean when I've already explained that I have seen 6 pediatricians / in 3 different cities and they all said that it is not reflux. He gets very gassy (so we give him mylicon every night and sometimes during the day when warranted) and before switching from dairy to soy formula he used to spit-up A LOT - (if he had bottles every three hours then right before the 'next bottle' he'd still be spitting the previous ones) and have very wet repeating burps - but that has improved SIGNIFICANTLY since we started solids and switched to soy at 6 months.

 

[Lilmiss1]

Smileygurl, That's great news. Glad things are getting better for you all. Hope you both get well soon. And hope you are getting some 'me' time in!
Long may it continue!

 

[polaris]

That's brilliant news, really hope it keeps up for you. I guess people just try to respond to the information given and offer suggestions, but I hear what you are saying that it's not necessarily helpful when you've already investigated those avenues thoroughly. Hope you both get over your illness quickly.