The word "clever" is a no-no?

[bananaz]

This is harsh. I have read it, understand it and being from a science background know the value of good research. I still think this, and "research" like it is problematic for many reasons. Often the reporting of the research is what's flawed. And the fact that any piece that starts with "research shows" probably means that research doesn't show this at all.

But I'll give you a good example of how parenting research in particular is really worrisome. When Abby was about a year old there were two bits of "research" that people on here were convinced everyone should pay great attention to and not to do so was foolish. One was that crying babies are so stressed, they release more cortisol into their brain and can become brain damaged. This was widely thought by those who really have no idea to mean that having your baby cry for more than a few seconds would lead to brain damage. The other piece of research "showed" failing to do tummy time lots with your newborn meant they were far more likely to become dyspraxic or dyslexic.

My baby hated tummy time and screamed any time she was on the mat. So, do I risk brain damage or dyspraxia? Difficult for a new mum to decide wouldn't you say? I chose to ignore both studies and do what worked for us.

These studies can be a tool for background information but pulling out one part of parenting and saying "that's bad" is flawed science. There are a whole lot of ways to raise a child well, and to raise them badly. As has been said, as long as they are safe you deal with each issue as it comes.

Yes, it's up to the parent to choose how they use (or don't use) data from these types of studies. Obviously it's a good idea to fully explore all of the information available instead of making decisions based on a single isolated study. My point is that most of the people in this thread formed opinions based on the original post, which did not accurately capture the nature of the research at all. I'm not saying that everyone should take every study on parenting practices as gospel and follow those recommendations to the letter.

And if you have reason to believe this study wasn't sound then by all means please share, I'd be interested in hearing it.

 

[randomrach]

I must be pretty ignorant because I don't read many parenting studies heaven forbid I just do what comes naturally to me. So far I have a bright 14 month old girl who is right on track and I have absolutely no concerns. I am doing it all wrong though - no tummy time, I've let her cry it out a few times and I tell her she's beautiful and clever but she does things that surprises me all of the time: she knows how the hoover fits together, what buttons to press on the washing machine, how to unlock daddy's phone, how to set the alarm on the oven (all day long) and she's a pro at stacking rings she's can walk, enjoys a game of dizzy dinosaurs ( ) and understands most things I say to her. Last thing on the list is improving her vocabulary but we're always working on that. Not reading all of the studies doesn't mean you don't care, personally I'm just relaxed and confident enough in my parenting choices that I KNOW my little girl is doing just fine.

Not meant to offend anyone! I'm just ok with my parenting choices and lack of research.

 

[Reedy]

Bananaz- how do you know those getting mad didn't read it? I Read it and still stand by what I said, it's my opinion not gospel x

 

[kosh]

I find this thread really interesting.
I haven't read the articles in detail but yet, I fully agree. I do not tell my boy he is clever, and I do not like it when others do it. I started to pay attention to this at nursery - at first he would get very upset when i'd leave him but after a while he started to get used to it and would even throw his arms at his key worker. To this she'd say 'clever boy'. I just don't get it, whats 'clever' about that?. English is not my first language, so maybe something is lost in translation, but still I wouldnt say the equivalent in Spanish either. To me it just sounds like a thorw away comment. dont get me wrong, Im not against praising, quite the opposite, i praise him all the time, when he does something right, and also when he doesn't but has tried hard. I tell him, 'well done', 'thank you for doing x', 'I love your drawing', etc, I just do not tell him he is 'clever'

 

[sequeena]

Why don't you tell him he's clever? What about he does something for the first time, like completing a puzzle, is that not clever?

My son has recently started pointing to his belly whrn asked. To me that is clevrr. My child has learned something new x

 

[Tiff]

I suppose words have different meanings and values to individuals. I don't think it's wrong to NOT say that they're clever... so long as there is praise, if that makes sense?

But to think its a no-no baffles me to be honest. But we're all free to parent in our own ways.

 

[Tiff]

Actually, I told Claire she was clever this morning. She's got developmental delays along with her Autism so she really struggles with trying to hold a pen/pencil/marker.

I had her decorate a card for my mother's birthday tomorrow and she actually wrote her name! Granted, it was more scribbles and if she didn't tell me what it was I probably wouldn't have known.

But to me, that was incredibly clever!!! I was so proud of her! I just can't fathom why that would be considered negative in any way.

 

[sequeena]

Actually, I told Claire she was clever this morning. She's got developmental delays along with her Autism so she really struggles with trying to hold a pen/pencil/marker.

I had her decorate a card for my mother's birthday tomorrow and she actually wrote her name! Granted, it was more scribbles and if she didn't tell me what it was I probably wouldn't have known.

But to me, that was incredibly clever!!! I was so proud of her! I just can't fathom why that would be considered negative in any way.

Wow well done claire! As a fellow gdd mum I know how proud you must be. Clever girl!

 

[kosh]

Why don't you tell him he's clever? What about he does something for the first time, like completing a puzzle, is that not clever?

If he does a puzzle for the first time, I'd say: wow, did you do that puzzle? Well, done!! That's great/amazing/brilliant that you did the puzzle on you r own, etc etc, I prob clap too, so it's not that I dont praise him, I just dont think the word clever really describes what I think/feel about it.
Like when he took his first steps, of course I was over the moon jumping up and down but I didn't say 'clever boy!'. To me hat would somehow imply that those who do not walk (yet or ever) are not clever?

 

[sequeena]

I get what you mean but just because a child can't do something for whatever reason doesn't mean they're not clever. At a young age I doubt they even understand what you're saying they're just responding to the tone of your voice. Actually, kids Thomas' age may understand but he's delayed so I'm not sure what the norm is.

 

[bumpy_j]

I agree with kosh. The word 'clever' insinuates being more intelligent than the average demographic. The problem with the word is that its now being used as a blanket statement for every child, most notably in school reports. There's no real point over thinking it, but I do agree with the sentiment of the research. I personally will be wary of using words that may lead my LO to believe he is outperforming his peers. I don't think the casual, occasional use of 'clever' would really lead to this mindset, but I also don't think there is any harm in moderating how you approach praise. Some people are told they're clever all their life and absolutely burn themselves out to perform to those standards. Others become lazy and unmotivated in school due to the belief that they do not need to prove that they can comprehend the curriculum. These trends mostly are the result of more than a throwaway 'clever boy!' comment, but they are often associated with being told they are gifted and bright consistently throughout all their school life. Praising the process to achieve a result (good job! what a creative approach! I can see you focused on the detail in this piece of work etc.) highlights the child's strengths more acutely, allowing the child to build on these skills, explore new techniques and find their favoured vocations with confidence without the worry of competing with their classmates. 'Clever' (depending on the context) is complementing the child's predetermined intelligence and is less constructive IMO.

Its not worth losing sleep over or anything; I doubt we now have a generation of emotionally damaged, delusional toddlers who think they're in the running for the MacArthur grant for pooing in the potty

 

[bumpy_j]

Things that I would compliment as 'clever' though would be finding a quirky or simplified solution to a problem and quick-wittedness.

 

[Larkspur]

I agree with kosh. The word 'clever' insinuates being more intelligent than the average demographic. The problem with the word is that its now being used as a blanket statement for every child, most notably in school reports. There's no real point over thinking it, but I do agree with the sentiment of the research. I personally will be wary of using words that may lead my LO to believe he is outperforming his peers. I don't think the casual, occasional use of 'clever' would really lead to this mindset, but I also don't think there is any harm in moderating how you approach praise. Some people are told they're clever all their life and absolutely burn themselves out to perform to those standards. Others become lazy and unmotivated in school due to the belief that they do not need to prove that they can comprehend the curriculum. These trends mostly are the result of more than a throwaway 'clever boy!' comment, but they are often associated with being told they are gifted and bright consistently throughout all their school life. Praising the process to achieve a result (good job! what a creative approach! I can see you focused on the detail in this piece of work etc.) highlights the child's strengths more acutely, allowing the child to build on these skills, explore new techniques and find their favoured vocations with confidence without the worry of competing with their classmates. 'Clever' (depending on the context) is complementing the child's predetermined intelligence and is less constructive IMO.

Its not worth losing sleep over or anything; I doubt we now have a generation of emotionally damaged, delusional toddlers who think they're in the running for the MacArthur grant for pooing in the potty

This is exactly it.

The studies were mostly aimed at older children who were old enough to understand what being told, "You are very clever" (as a general assessment of ability) means, not so much toddlers.

The reason I tend to moderate the way I talk to my toddler at this stage ("Well done, you finished the jigsaw all by yourself!") etc is mainly for my own benefit in the sense that it's really easy to fall into patterns of doing things. I think that if I focus from a really early age on praising specifics of behaviour that might be described as clever or smart, so that the process is praised as well as the result, then it will be completely natural and believable for my child/ren at a later age.

 

[kosh]

I agree with kosh. The word 'clever' insinuates being more intelligent than the average demographic. The problem with the word is that its now being used as a blanket statement for every child, most notably in school reports. There's no real point over thinking it, but I do agree with the sentiment of the research. I personally will be wary of using words that may lead my LO to believe he is outperforming his peers. I don't think the casual, occasional use of 'clever' would really lead to this mindset, but I also don't think there is any harm in moderating how you approach praise. Some people are told they're clever all their life and absolutely burn themselves out to perform to those standards. Others become lazy and unmotivated in school due to the belief that they do not need to prove that they can comprehend the curriculum. These trends mostly are the result of more than a throwaway 'clever boy!' comment, but they are often associated with being told they are gifted and bright consistently throughout all their school life. Praising the process to achieve a result (good job! what a creative approach! I can see you focused on the detail in this piece of work etc.) highlights the child's strengths more acutely, allowing the child to build on these skills, explore new techniques and find their favoured vocations with confidence without the worry of competing with their classmates. 'Clever' (depending on the context) is complementing the child's predetermined intelligence and is less constructive IMO.

That's where my problem with the word clever started!
During school and then later during University years I was told many times that I was 'clever'. I don't really know if I am or not, but what I do know is that a) I had to work/study extremely hard to live up to the expectation (I was 'clever' so I had to perform well); b) I didn;t get much praise for my efforts (I performed well because I was clever)
I guess that's a perfect example of the mentioned research!

 

[Reedy]

But a child doesn't know that's what it insinuates?? I agree I wouldn't say 'clever boy/girl for not crying when left but for doing something for the first time or doung something you as a parent think is something beyond their capability then why not? I'm not sure how it can hurt? I don't use clever all the time I vary what I say, but it is entirely up to the parent whether they choose to say this or not and not just because an article or research tells you you should or shouldn't x as parents we need to do what we think is best for OUR children x I will admit I have chosen not to do certain things if I have read it poses a danger to their health or body but I take things like this with a pinch of salt x

 

[Tiff]

I think it depends on your child's personality as well. Whenever I got praise, it encouraged/inspired me to do even better but I never did it to the point of being burnt out, nor did I worry that I wouldn't be clever anymore. Children's personalities definitely play a part in what type of praise they respond to, IMO.

 

[Larkspur]

I think it depends on your child's personality as well. Whenever I got praise, it encouraged/inspired me to do even better but I never did it to the point of being burnt out, nor did I worry that I wouldn't be clever anymore. Children's personalities definitely play a part in what type of praise they respond to, IMO.

I'm sure it's possible for children to respond wonderfully to praise of the "Well done, you're so clever!" type. All the research is saying is that *overall* children tend to respond much better to praise of the "You got an A? Well done! You must have worked really hard!" type.

 

[Larkspur]

A little more grist for the discussion about how 'you're so clever' praise (vs 'you worked so hard!') can be particularly negative for girls....

https://blogs.kqed.org/mindshift/2013/04/giving-good-praise-to-girls-what-messages-stick/

 

[Tiff]

Its interesting for sure, but tbh I still don't see it. Maybe if being told they were clever as the only means of praise? I don't know, the articles just seem so doom and gloom to me.

Hand on heart, while reading that I literally thought "well, that escalated quickly! "

That being said, the part of failure in small doses I absolutely agree with. Its sad, but I've heard a few instances where parents put enormous pressure on their children to succeed and be the best. I might be more attune to that though because Claire struggles with lots of things that are innate/second nature for other kids her age. So we're constantly telling her that its okay, and she can try again and just keep practicing until she gets it.