The word "clever" is a no-no?

[Destiny08]

ok. after calming down a bit, i wanted to stop by before my account is deactivated to apologise for any offense i caused. i understand where all are coming from, i simply got defensive when so many attacked me and my skills as a parent.

that said, i do still believe the response is unwarranted. this is a forum for advice and support. so instead of judging me and attacking me, why not step forward and say 'i understand that may be how your family works but it may not be a great word to use around your child. if she were to repeat that it could cause issues. especially if it was to a special needs child' instead of immediately jumping to insult me.

thats it now once again I'm sorry for any offense I caused, it was unintended.

 

[SarahBear]

So the other day my DD was making some animal noise and I said something along the lines of "clever girl". I was then told about some online pyschology article they said for some reason or other you shouldn't tell children they're clever, bit that they "tried hard". My first reaction was that it was a load of nonsense, has anyone ever heard anything similar??

Yeah, here in the US, we don't really use the word "clever" as much as we use the word "smart," but as an educator I definitely buy into it. Kids who believe they achieve things because they're smart, think that when something gets too hard, they must not be able to do it because they're not smart enough and then they give up. Kids who believe they achieve things because they work hard, think that when something gets too hard, they can achieve it by working harder. They then do work harder and are more likely to achieve it. Then there's the idea that by telling a kid they're smart, emphasizes intelligence as the important characteristic rather than more important things such as whether or not you're a good person. I also wouldn't want to teach kids that people who are less smart are less valuable. When you value intelligence, you de-value people who are less intelligent. I want my daughter to know how to work hard and know that failure is a sign that she needs to persist, not a sign that she's a failure who can't achieve what she wants. I take this stuff seriously and also do not tell my students that they are smart.

Edit: I also want to add that I think it's more than the use of this word alone that causes these outcomes and this was in no way a judgement of your parenting. I think it's great that when this was drawn to your attention, you sought more information and opinions in order to deepen your understanding. It's not the specific practice of saying these words or not that makes a difference, it's your overall parenting and the values you teach that make the difference.

Edit: Also, I didn't read through the thread so I don't know what has or has not been discussed.

 

[minties]

This is very interesting. I have read the thread but not the article(s?) yet, I'm baking some scones. I'd like some praise for them so better keep an eye on the oven...lol.

I try not to gush over the kids and lavish them with 'clever' and 'so smart' etc. I associate 'clever' with 'crafty/devious' in my head for some reason anyway. I did tell Thomas he was clever when he figured out how to open the baby gate, get into the kitchen and find the cake in the cupboard. It wasn't really praise, just an admiration of his sneaky skills.

I admit I call Sophie beautiful a lot as though it were a praise, but so many people think she's plain or even ugly and it hurts me to think she'll be hurt by hearing it. So I do praise her looks.

 

[SarahBear]

I also think that "clever" is better than "smart," because it implies more creativity whereas "smart" implies more straight intelligence. In your example Minties, I can totally understand using the word "clever!"

 

[steph.]

I havent read the article either but as someone else previously said, I think nowadays we tend to over-analyse how we raise our children. I'll just say whatever comes naturally to me without over thinking it. I doubt any of our parents read what to say/what not to say articles when raising us, and most of us turned out ok.

 

[Larkspur]

I havent read the article either but as someone else previously said, I think nowadays we tend to over-analyse how we raise our children. I'll just say whatever comes naturally to me without over thinking it. I doubt any of our parents read what to say/what not to say articles when raising us, and most of us turned out ok.

Without wanting to be unduly argumentative, that's fine if you're just shooting for okay.

Some people, however, are interested in looking at ways we might do things better. I mean, the lightbulb would never have been invented if Edison had just gone... "Hey, we've got gaslights and candles, surely that's fine." In fact, most new thinking usually attracts a level of derision from people who wonder why you would bother to try something new when you already have something that works "just fine". A lot of people thought cars would never catch on. Or computers. Or planes.

Also, the "we all turned out okay" argument isn't much of an argument. Leaving aside that okay leaves a lot of room to do better, it's actually pretty hard to discern from the outside what's really okay (or, hell, sometimes even to discern from the inside).

I mean, I guess most people would look at me, see a pretty successful person and think, "Hey, she was praised for intelligence all through her childhood and she's okay [therefore that approach is fine]." My parents would definitely say that. But personally, I struggled with a lot of problems stemming from believing that success and intelligence were the main things my parents valued from me. I'm okay now, but I wasn't okay for some time.

 

[SarahBear]

I think in modern society, it's important to analyze how we parent children, particularly when it comes to the messages they are sent.

 

[steph.]

I havent read the article either but as someone else previously said, I think nowadays we tend to over-analyse how we raise our children. I'll just say whatever comes naturally to me without over thinking it. I doubt any of our parents read what to say/what not to say articles when raising us, and most of us turned out ok.

Without wanting to be unduly argumentative, that's fine if you're just shooting for okay.

Some people, however, are interested in looking at ways we might do things better. I mean, the lightbulb would never have been invented if Edison had just gone... "Hey, we've got gaslights and candles, surely that's fine." In fact, most new thinking usually attracts a level of derision from people who wonder why you would bother to try something new when you already have something that works "just fine". A lot of people thought cars would never catch on. Or computers. Or planes.

Also, the "we all turned out okay" argument isn't much of an argument. Leaving aside that okay leaves a lot of room to do better, it's actually pretty hard to discern from the outside what's really okay (or, hell, sometimes even to discern from the inside).

I mean, I guess most people would look at me, see a pretty successful person and think, "Hey, she was praised for intelligence all through her childhood and she's okay [therefore that approach is fine]." My parents would definitely say that. But personally, I struggled with a lot of problems stemming from believing that success and intelligence were the main things my parents valued from me. I'm okay now, but I wasn't okay for some time.

I'm not aiming to be an just an ok parent, I actually think I'm doing really well so far. I just dont think I need to read an article to tell me how to do it. I'd rather just be me, spontaneous than start thinking "oh no, i shouldnt say this because blah blah". I think the issues that people have, thinking that intelligence and success are the most important things will stem from more than just telling your kid they are clever.

As it turns out I speak to Sophia in portuguese so we dont use "clever" very much anyway, i usually use the equivalent of "well done" and give her a good old cheer if she's done something amazing (in my eyes)

 

[Larkspur]

I'm not aiming to be an just an ok parent, I actually think I'm doing really well so far. I just dont think I need to read an article to tell me how to do it. I'd rather just be me, spontaneous than start thinking "oh no, i shouldnt say this because blah blah". I think the issues that people have, thinking that intelligence and success are the most important things will stem from more than just telling your kid they are clever.

Well, obviously it's more than just one particular phrase, it's part of a general approach, but actually a focus on the importance of cleverness/achievement rather than the value of effort/failure being a part of the process was pretty much the centre of my problems.

 

[lovelylaura]

I'm a bit wary of posting as i've got a feeling it may get bit picked at but hey ho!

I do use the word 'clever' but only when she doe's do something clever (why wouldn't i?) if i went through life without someone telling me i was clever for something that did actually deem it then i would be a little resentful. But i do agree it shouldn't be over used. I have two very different children (at the moment) Poppy is very clever for her age and i do praise her for it. Freya just isn't naturally clever and doesn't pick things up quickly so therefore i don't use clever as much.

However my husband was very clever as a child just like poppy and picked things up without much problem and was hardly ever told he was 'clever' he did averagly throughout school ect. His sister struggled and so when she finally picked up something she was praised on how clever she was even though it was probably something my husband did without much thought. She has now finished at a great uni and has got herself a brilliant job.

Sometimes you need to be told your clever or did well to keep up your motivation.

And to the PP who was talking about shooting for 'okay' just because some of us don't feel the need to research our parenting is so rude maybe we just rely on our life experiences and the personality's of our children to know what works for them. I don't need to read conflicting articles all the time as lets be fair you tend to believe what you think works anyway.

 

[superfrizbee]

Well this has really taken off! After making the original post I've read your replies with much interest. Where I'm at at the moment is some kind of half way house. The articles certainly put some context into what at first seemed a ridiculous comment and I can definitely understand the benefits of praising effort and specifics instead of using a general term of "clever", but I wouldn't ever really say "good try" as I agree with PP that it sounds a bit negative. I wouldn't stop using the word clever, but I would make a conscious effort to not overuse it. I also think the article is looking more specifically into older children in education and the same rules don't necessarily apply to babies and toddlers, who need encouragement and praise in simpler terms that they can understand. In this case I think they would associate the word clever with general good feeling and praise as oppsed to "mum just gave me an A*!". I also don't think people who don't agree with the article or parts of it are going to do any "damage" to their kids - the important thing I think is healthy praise which isn't inflated an over used, with some emphasis on working hard. I also find it interesting to read artciles like this on parenting and where I can agree with the findings I will utilise them to try and be a better parent, but likewise I will always use my mummy instincts because they naturally kick in and I think do so for a reason.

 

[Larkspur]

And to the PP who was talking about shooting for 'okay' just because some of us don't feel the need to research our parenting is so rude maybe we just rely on our life experiences and the personality's of our children to know what works for them. I don't need to read conflicting articles all the time as lets be fair you tend to believe what you think works anyway.

I was responding to the previous poster saying that bothering to read studies was basically pointless over-analysis and that just doing whatever you feel is best is fine because most people so far seem okay. So I guess it's okay to insult those who do see value in child development research, huh?

 

[Katiekola]

Thanks everyone, this thread has certainly given me some food for thought I was repetedly told throughout my school years that I 'coasted' and although I met grades I never really excelled at any one thing and nobody mentioned me being particularly 'clever' or intelligent.

I will recall one thing that happened to give some context to what I am about to say... I auditioned for the school choir aged about 8. I was told I was not good enough and rejected while every other child got through ti the choir. To say I was devestated is an understatement! Aged 8, even if I had sounded like a dying cat I should have been allowed to join. In my opinion. It affected my sence of self worth a lot, as silly as it may now seem.

Soooo to move on, I will probably do this with my son. While he is still very young he can clever, brilliant, amazing etc etc, as he gets older I hope to encourage him to do his very best but to let him know that even if he is not good at some things its not a bad thing. I guess 'trying hard' should be given as much kudos as being clever, if not more. But then i guess any little thing my baby does I will be thrilled about so he will probably just let his Mothers effusive gushing pride roll off his shoulders!

 

[steph.]

And to the PP who was talking about shooting for 'okay' just because some of us don't feel the need to research our parenting is so rude maybe we just rely on our life experiences and the personality's of our children to know what works for them. I don't need to read conflicting articles all the time as lets be fair you tend to believe what you think works anyway.

I was responding to the previous poster saying that bothering to read studies was basically pointless over-analysis and that just doing whatever you feel is best is fine because most people so far seem okay. So I guess it's okay to insult those who do see value in child development research, huh?

Ok, now you are putting words in my mouth. I never said I dont see value in child development research and dont think I insulted anyone. Personally I will do what I think is best, why wouldnt I? I will praise her when i think she should be praised, regardless of whether that is for accomplishment or effort. I will read the article when i have more time, it will probably be an interesting read, but I doubt it will change the way I interact with my daughter, I just do what comes naturally.

 

[Saphira]

Wouldn't the effects of parents telling their child they're smart or 'great job' be different than that from researchers or teachers in a school setting?

And, how could the effects of "overly praising" by parents be observed in each individual family to determine it's actually better for the child to hold back on it?

 

[bumpy_j]

I think the point of the article is probably not focused on the very casual use of 'clever girl!' when something is achieved, but complete overuse and therefore ingraining the message that they may be intellectually superior to their peers.

Because the general consensus is that (in very basic terms) there is a spectrum of intelligence, with 'clever' being a basic term to define above average performance, and it can be in the child's best interests to only use the word when they are advanced in certain subjects, rather than perhaps create the illusion that they are surpassing their classmates in everything. Consistently overusing the word can lead to also using the dreaded: "But why didn't you do well in this? You're clever!" which is pretty crushing for a child to hear, and can possibly hinder their confidence to ask for help in the future.

 

[sequeena]

Interesting, I've never really thought about it!

I say well done a lot, or awesome. I also say 'you're such a clever boy'. My son is special needs... so not sure how this would all relate to him (as he is not the 'norm'). We are in the stage of praising absolutely everything including him being able to point at a train in a book because it's taken so long to happen.

 

[Natsku]

I say things like "clever girl" to Maria all the time but I also make a big deal of praising the effort she puts into things, especially with things that she usually doesn't put the effort into and gives up on easily. I've noticed since I started pointing out how hard she tries at eating her breakfast by herself (something that is an issue with her at the moment as she keeps wanting to be spoonfed) that she has started trying even harder so its making a difference as opposed to when I used to just say "well done" or "clever girl" when she occasionally managed it by herself.

 

[pinkpolkadot]

I see what the article is saying and it does make sense. I do think though it depends on how you interperet the word 'clever'. For example I say 'clever girl' when I see DD has worked or put effort into something to achieve it so it doesn't always have to imply natural intelligence.

I am the kind of person who thrives on praise and was told I was clever often by my parents. I never saw this as meaning I hadn't put the effort in, until one day my dad actually said to me that he thought a friend of mine had had to work really hard to achieve her high grades unlike me! I must admit I was a little put put by that but fortunately it didn't effect my effort or grades!

 

[Midnight_Fairy]

Interesting, I've never really thought about it!

I say well done a lot, or awesome. I also say 'you're such a clever boy'. My son is special needs... so not sure how this would all relate to him (as he is not the 'norm'). We are in the stage of praising absolutely everything including him being able to point at a train in a book because it's taken so long to happen.

Same as.