Weapons. Yes or No? Why?

[Sarahkka]

Interesting statistics in this wikipedia article. This quote jumped out at me:

Gun-related death rates in the United States are eight times higher than they are in countries that are economically and politically similar to it; however, most countries similar to the United States have a more secure social network. Higher gun-related death rates can be found in developing countries and countries with political instability.[29][33][34] However, developed countries with strict gun laws have essentially eliminated gun violence.[35][36][37][38]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States

 

[Elephant5740]

Interesting statistics in this wikipedia article. This quote jumped out at me:

Gun-related death rates in the United States are eight times higher than they are in countries that are economically and politically similar to it; however, most countries similar to the United States have a more secure social network. Higher gun-related death rates can be found in developing countries and countries with political instability.[29][33][34] However, developed countries with strict gun laws have essentially eliminated gun violence.[35][36][37][38]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States

We already HAVE gun laws in the states! Criminals do not follow these rules!

 

[Noelle610]

A lot of American gun culture is just that - cultural. Since we were colonized in our history and fought for independence, there's an underlying fear in many citizens that the government will "turn on them" and they need to be armed to protect their freedom.

The right to bear arms is protected in our constitution. There is a huge portion of our population that believes the constitution shouldn't be altered or ammended (although of course it has been) even though it was written in the 1700s. That's a different argument all together, but it's a touchy subjet here.

I do think these viewpoints are slightly paranoid and likely outdated, but they run very, very deep in our country. I think it's difficult to understand if you have grown up in a culture that simply doesn't do guns.

I completely understand what you’re saying, I totally get that is what a lot of Americans believe, but the country tends to be so self-obsessed and insular, like it is the only country to have a violent past? Ok so the US had to knock down a corrupt government...but so did France....and Germany (they had to deal with genocide for Christ’s sake!)...look at the World Wars that were predominantly fought in our back gardens only 70 years ago, but you don’t see us being riddled in gun crime and using that as an excuse for our behaviour, not that I am saying you are at all PP because I know you are only eloquently explaining this particular aspect of the argument not stating whether you agree with it or not, but for me it is the weakest argument and yet many Americans think it’s their strongest, and I blame them for not looking beyond the length of their own nose. (I don’t mean to be all like raaa America, I love the US, I’ve lived their briefly, I’m not intending to generalise as I know not everyone thinks the same, I’m talking about one group).

What is the difference between the US and countries like France and Germany for example, is it their violent histories? No it is not, both have fought many wars, have had civils wars, had to protect themselves on home turf, corrupt governments, the difference I believe as to why America has such a massive amount of gun crime compared to the rest of the Western world is their gun legislation- or lack of. It’s as simple as that for me, however, with the amount of guns in circulation now it is too late I feel for America to ever get in line with the rest of us, but too many don’t even seem to want to anyway. And yes, I find that bizarre, I want my child to grow up in country where the flipping teacher isn’t carrying a gun and no I don’t understand why others don’t.

I think too many people in America like to say “you don’t know what it is like here, it’s in our culture etc” but I don’t think they give others enough credit, speaking for myself and a lot of people I know on here and in RL we’re a lot more observant and interested in other people’s cultures, I might not relate but I have a good understanding of other European countries, the States etc, I’m not saying I am an expert but I think people in the US perhaps don’t give other counties enough credit for our empathies just because as a whole their country is a lot more insular. For example someone once asked why British people cared so much about Obama (in an inflammatory way like it wasn’t our business) and that kind of summed it up for me really.

Hey, I totally agree with most of your argument. I was just trying to highlight the cultural landscape of the US for those that may not be familiar with it.

I do, however, think our cultural is a bit misunderstood by the rest of the world. Our country is just huge and has so many sub-cultures within it that it is unique in that way.

(I'm not saying that you don't understand and emphathize with our culture, but I just think it can be a hard one to wrap one's head around).

I've lived in Mississippi, I have Mississippisn friends, I do get the culture, I don't relate to it but I know where it has done from, just because it is all they've known doesn't make it right. It wasn't that long ago we were saying racial segregation was 'cultural'.

Very good point. I do hate it when people use culture as an excuse for poor behavior.

 

[Pearls18]

Interesting statistics in this wikipedia article. This quote jumped out at me:

Gun-related death rates in the United States are eight times higher than they are in countries that are economically and politically similar to it; however, most countries similar to the United States have a more secure social network. Higher gun-related death rates can be found in developing countries and countries with political instability.[29][33][34] However, developed countries with strict gun laws have essentially eliminated gun violence.[35][36][37][38]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States

We already HAVE gun laws in the states! Criminals do not follow these rules!

Someone with a mental illness can walk into a Texas gun fair and walk out with a gun showing one piece of ID, these are not gun laws. In the UK you can't own a gun for self protection, or because you just want one, you have to put forward your case, be mentally sound, pay for a licence, have a police officer come to your house to check it is in a bolted gun cabinet, then it is checked regularly and even then you can't have certain types of guns unless it is deemed appropriate (farmers etc) hand guns are illegal. These are gun laws, and for this reason gun crime is incredibly low in the UK, we have very few in circulation, they are too hard and expensive to get hold of by most criminals and aren't that desperately sought after because our police are not routinely armed and few people have them to need to defend themselves. You simply can not argue any of your US states are like this, and this is why your country is in such a mess with gun crime. You are denying the statistics and for that reason your argument could never sit with me, fine tell me you want a gun to protect yourself, I get that, probably wouldn't feel safe in your house either, but don't tell me gun crime isn't higher in the US because of the number of guns because it is a baseless argument.

 

[Noelle610]

Interesting statistics in this wikipedia article. This quote jumped out at me:

Gun-related death rates in the United States are eight times higher than they are in countries that are economically and politically similar to it; however, most countries similar to the United States have a more secure social network. Higher gun-related death rates can be found in developing countries and countries with political instability.[29][33][34] However, developed countries with strict gun laws have essentially eliminated gun violence.[35][36][37][38]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States

This information is correct, but unfortunately not very helpful for our dilema. The guns are here. That's not going to change. Even if we were to adopt the laws of other countries that were economically and politically similar to us, we would not be able to eliminate the firearms in this country.

I have yet to see an argument that poses a good solution to this problem. Perhaps it doesn't exist. But I must admit to disliking a debate for a debate's sake when there is no real solution offered.

 

[Elephant5740]

https://theacru.org/acru/harvard_study_gun_control_is_counterproductive/

Above is a study by harvard on gun control.

Just a few points below from the study.....

The findings of two criminologists - Prof. Don Kates and Prof. Gary Mauser - in their exhaustive study of American and European gun laws and violence rates, are telling:

Nations with stringent anti-gun laws generally have substantially higher murder rates than those that do not. The study found that the nine European nations with the lowest rates of gun ownership (5,000 or fewer guns per 100,000 population) have a combined murder rate three times higher than that of the nine nations with the highest rates of gun ownership (at least 15,000 guns per 100,000 population).
-Norway has the highest rate of gun ownership in Western Europe, yet possesses the lowest murder rate
-Sweden and Denmark are two more examples of nations with high murder rates but few guns.

 

[Lina]

A recent study looked at all US states and how they compared in number of gun fatalities and found that the states with the highest number of gun laws had the lowest gun deaths. https://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1661390

Another sad statistic is the number of gun deaths since Sandy Hook (which was only 3 month ago) which now stands at 2635, of which over 45 are children! https://www.slate.com/articles/news..._death_since_newtown_sandy_hook_shooting.html

I just can't comprehend how anyone can support the ownership much less the assertion that more guns are needed to protect lives, when they are clearly taking lives.

 

[Pearls18]

Interesting statistics in this wikipedia article. This quote jumped out at me:

Gun-related death rates in the United States are eight times higher than they are in countries that are economically and politically similar to it; however, most countries similar to the United States have a more secure social network. Higher gun-related death rates can be found in developing countries and countries with political instability.[29][33][34] However, developed countries with strict gun laws have essentially eliminated gun violence.[35][36][37][38]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States

This information is correct, but unfortunately not very helpful for our dilema. The guns are here. That's not going to change. Even if we were to adopt the laws of other countries that were economically and politically similar to us, we would not be able to eliminate the firearms in this country.

I have yet to see an argument that poses a good solution to this problem. Perhaps it doesn't exist. But I must admit to disliking a debate for a debate's sake when there is no real solution offered.

I agree but until a large enough amount of people acknowledge what you have nothing will be done, so it's git to be argued, there's still too much pig headed stubbornness on the matter, if even 26 children dying can't make people realise I don't know what will.

 

[Pearls18]

https://theacru.org/acru/harvard_study_gun_control_is_counterproductive/

Above is a study by harvard on gun control.

Just a few points below from the study.....

The findings of two criminologists - Prof. Don Kates and Prof. Gary Mauser - in their exhaustive study of American and European gun laws and violence rates, are telling:

Nations with stringent anti-gun laws generally have substantially higher murder rates than those that do not. The study found that the nine European nations with the lowest rates of gun ownership (5,000 or fewer guns per 100,000 population) have a combined murder rate three times higher than that of the nine nations with the highest rates of gun ownership (at least 15,000 guns per 100,000 population).
-Norway has the highest rate of gun ownership in Western Europe, yet possesses the lowest murder rate
-Sweden and Denmark are two more examples of nations with high murder rates but few guns.

Funnily enough I wouldn't take that paper as my primary source of stats and research, I would choose to start somewhere a little less biased....that is not a peer reviewed study.

 

[Natsku]

https://theacru.org/acru/harvard_study_gun_control_is_counterproductive/

Above is a study by harvard on gun control.

Just a few points below from the study.....

The findings of two criminologists - Prof. Don Kates and Prof. Gary Mauser - in their exhaustive study of American and European gun laws and violence rates, are telling:

Nations with stringent anti-gun laws generally have substantially higher murder rates than those that do not. The study found that the nine European nations with the lowest rates of gun ownership (5,000 or fewer guns per 100,000 population) have a combined murder rate three times higher than that of the nine nations with the highest rates of gun ownership (at least 15,000 guns per 100,000 population).
-Norway has the highest rate of gun ownership in Western Europe, yet possesses the lowest murder rate
-Sweden and Denmark are two more examples of nations with high murder rates but few guns.

I'm inclined to have issues with that study considering it has at least one major fact wrong - Norway does not have the highest rate of gun ownership in Western Europe. If they got that wrong then what else did they get wrong?

 

[Natsku]

Interesting statistics in this wikipedia article. This quote jumped out at me:

Gun-related death rates in the United States are eight times higher than they are in countries that are economically and politically similar to it; however, most countries similar to the United States have a more secure social network. Higher gun-related death rates can be found in developing countries and countries with political instability.[29][33][34] However, developed countries with strict gun laws have essentially eliminated gun violence.[35][36][37][38]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States

This information is correct, but unfortunately not very helpful for our dilema. The guns are here. That's not going to change. Even if we were to adopt the laws of other countries that were economically and politically similar to us, we would not be able to eliminate the firearms in this country.

I have yet to see an argument that poses a good solution to this problem. Perhaps it doesn't exist. But I must admit to disliking a debate for a debate's sake when there is no real solution offered.

That is the problem. There really isn't a workable solution, Pandora's box of guns has been opened in the US and those guns aren't going to go back in it

 

[Sarahkka]

Change is always possible.
A few generations ago, gay marriage would have been thought impossible. Look where we are today.
It can happen. And it starts with these conversations, I think.

 

[Natsku]

Its going to need to start with a mass removal of guns from American society but how will that be done?

 

[Sarahkka]

Start with good public discussion. As respectful as possible.
Get testimony from other similar cultures (Canada and the UK are good candidates here) on how gun control (like socialized health care) does not have to rock your universe off kilter and destroy your way of life.
Ask for a lot of public feedback so that citizens feel listened to. Ask for solutions to the perceived threats from the public. If people feel that they need to own a gun to defend their homes, that needs to be respectfully explored and better understood. It's an emotional, reactionary issue, so lots of mediation needs to be involved.
Who knows what kinds of solutions might come out of that?

But that is where I would start. That and banning zombie movies...

 

[Natsku]

Yeah the zombie movies certainly don't help...

 

[vaniilla]

Its going to need to start with a mass removal of guns from American society but how will that be done?

I'm joining this debate late

usually efforts to remove weapons are started with mass campaigns of awareness and then having a several year amnesty for people to transition and willingly hand over guns and go from there. With something so entrenched in their society it will take a lot of time but you have to start somewhere right

Forgot to add - head members from gun associations/companies should not be allowed to sit in the senate or influence government! I think it's madness.

 

[Natsku]

Its going to need to start with a mass removal of guns from American society but how will that be done?

I'm joining this debate late

usually efforts to remove weapons are started with mass campaigns of awareness and then having a several year amnesty for people to transition and willingly hand over guns and go from there. With something so entrenched in their society it will take a lot of time but you have to start somewhere right

Forgot to add - head members from gun associations/companies should not be allowed to sit in the senate or influence government! I think it's madness.

Definitely agree with the bolded!

I don't think an amnesty would work in the US. But maybe with awareness campaigns, stricter and stricter gun laws over time, in a few generations maybe the problem could be lessened but I don't think anything could be done any quicker as so many Americans seem to think that America is special and people must have guns there. They ought to change the Constitution - the world has changed so much since it was written.

 

[Noelle610]

All lovely ideas, but it's just not going to happen in the US. Call me cynical, but gun culture is ingrained in the very fiber of this nation. At least in my parent's generation. I hope things will change with our children, but it would take a radical shift in thinking. This is a good article about the culture, if you're interested:

https://https://articles.washingtonpost.com/2012-12-25/opinions/36016171_1_gun-culture-gun-killings-thompson-submachine-guns

Changing a culture is a lot harder than changing the law. But look at our cultural shifts on race and gender, on drunk driving and the cooling of the American love affair with the automobile. It takes a long time, and there are no guarantees, yet we might actually find the solution we’ve been looking for in all the wrong places.

 

[Elephant5740]

Holly - I hope you take advice from those of us in that live in the same country as you. Having a gun in USA is much different that any other country. I would hope you value the opinons from our friends that live in Finland, UK, Canada, etc. but please consider the fact that they do not understand the american culture! Please think about this when deciding if you should keep a gun in the house : It's better to have a gun and never use it, than need to use it and not have.

I appreciate having this debate but it's almost useless to have with people who do not live here.

 

[Pearls18]

Holly - I hope you take advice from those of us in that live in the same country as you. Having a gun in USA is much different that any other country. I would hope you value the opinons from our friends that live in Finland, UK, Canada, etc. but please consider the fact that they do not understand the american culture! Please think about this when deciding if you should keep a gun in the house : It's better to have a gun and never use it, than need to use it and not have.

I appreciate having this debate but it's almost useless to have with people who do not live here.

I have lived there...Mississippi which is pretty pro-gun I'm sure you're aware. I suppose you couldn't possibly comment on genocide in Rwanda because you don't live there? It's useless talking to people who are too stubborn to look beyond the length of their own nose.