what's all this about Tories taking away maternity support???

[EstelSeren]

I've studied politics for several years at university and woould firstly like to point out one thing: there is no true left/right wing divide in modern British politics. All of the major parties are centrist- the Conservatives are centre-right, Labour is ambiguous and, as far as I can tell, seem to lean further right than the Conservatives on some issues whilst being more to the left on other things and the Lib Dems are centre-left.

From which paper did you get this information? As I'm sure you're aware, the newspapers in the UK all have political allegiances of their own. Most obviously, The Telegraph is Conservative and the Guardian supports Labour. When it comes to the tabloids, The Sun has recently switched back to supporting the Conservatives after being Labour since 1997, and The Mirror is staunchly Labour. Therefore, if you found this information in the Mirror or the Guardian then take it with a rather huge pinch of salt, even if it were in The Sun I'd be wary as the switch has been very recent. I say this because the papers that support Labour will be very much exaggerating the situation as this is what the media does.

I don't claim to in any way support the Conservatives, although I am in favour of their proposals to recognise and support marriage in the benefits system and to take measures to stop the couples penalty in the benefits system simply because I feel that my partner and I have been are are being let down by the benefits system over the last 18 months. I personally support Plaid Cymru as I live in Wales and feel that they represent Welsh issues better than the national parties.

I've not actually listened to David Cameron's conference speech, which, from what I can gather on the BBC website, is where this information was originally found. However, from the BBC report online (as far as I'm concerned, the BBC is about as neutral as you can get as they aren't allowed to have a political bias), I get the feeling that it's the middle classes that (yet again!) would get hit, not the true poor and not the rich. It is unfortunate that they talk of getting rid of the child trust funds though. This is the article I read, the only one I could find with a mention of the theme of this thread! : https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8294011.stm

Sorry it's so long and that I rambled a bit!!

Beca :wave:

 

[lozzy21]

Money worries can put a huge strain on relationships – so we will end the couple penalty in the benefits system and recognise marriage in the tax and benefits system

That is the bit i dont like, Im being penalised for not being married? Unless the tories are going to give me a few grand to get married im being penalised?

 

[PeanutBean]

I've studied politics for several years at university and woould firstly like to point out one thing: there is no true left/right wing divide in modern British politics. All of the major parties are centrist- the Conservatives are centre-right, Labour is ambiguous and, as far as I can tell, seem to lean further right than the Conservatives on some issues whilst being more to the left on other things and the Lib Dems are centre-left.

From which paper did you get this information? As I'm sure you're aware, the newspapers in the UK all have political allegiances of their own. Most obviously, The Telegraph is Conservative and the Guardian supports Labour. When it comes to the tabloids, The Sun has recently switched back to supporting the Conservatives after being Labour since 1997, and The Mirror is staunchly Labour. Therefore, if you found this information in the Mirror or the Guardian then take it with a rather huge pinch of salt, even if it were in The Sun I'd be wary as the switch has been very recent. I say this because the papers that support Labour will be very much exaggerating the situation as this is what the media does.

I don't claim to in any way support the Conservatives, although I am in favour of their proposals to recognise and support marriage in the benefits system and to take measures to stop the couples penalty in the benefits system simply because I feel that my partner and I have been are are being let down by the benefits system over the last 18 months. I personally support Plaid Cymru as I live in Wales and feel that they represent Welsh issues better than the national parties.

I've not actually listened to David Cameron's conference speech, which, from what I can gather on the BBC website, is where this information was originally found. However, from the BBC report online (as far as I'm concerned, the BBC is about as neutral as you can get as they aren't allowed to have a political bias), I get the feeling that it's the middle classes that (yet again!) would get hit, not the true poor and not the rich. It is unfortunate that they talk of getting rid of the child trust funds though. This is the article I read, the only one I could find with a mention of the theme of this thread! : https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8294011.stm

Sorry it's so long and that I rambled a bit!!

Beca :wave:

It's fair to say there's not much left in British politics anymore but Labour are at least more so than most. The Tories however are well and truly on the right.

I'm somewhat surprised that some of you keep asking for links to papers. What on earth has the press got to do with it? This isn't some outspoken policy of theirs. One doesn't need to read biased commentary or fictional policies to understand that historically the Tories made a complete bloody mess of everything and that the past Labour reign has seen economic boom like has not been seen before. When the international recession started (a consequence of historical right wing capitalist financial lunacy) Gordon Brown has been a leader of the world, praised for his strategies and copied around the world bringing us safely to the other side and having a firm and sensible strategy to bring us back into the black again. Unlike the Tories who are making up the sums.

I find it interesting that any news from the Guardian or Mirror is to be taken with a pinch of salt. Presumably the Times and the Mail are entirely unbiased and accurate are they?

Yes it's true that the middle classes will be the worst hit (that includes me), based on the policies that have been laid out, but the point is that Tory politics destroys economies and in the end the poor get poorer and the rich get richer. There are a number of unions already preparing for strikes if the Tories get in and implement the policies stated at their conference. Welcome back to the 1980s!

 

[EstelSeren]

PeanutBean- I was just using examples of papers. All the media has some bias. I probably just put it wrong, I have a tendancy to do this sometimes! As I said, I personally use the BBC as it has to put forward 100% fact and varied opinion peices therefore you get a balance. When it comes to newspapers, you will need to read, for example, The Telegraph, The Guardian and, probably, something like The Independent (it does have less bias than most but is usually seen to be Lib Dem leaning) in order to get a balance from newspapers. The problem with the media in general is that it thrives on sensationalism, which works to dilute the facts. The lack of balanced reporting in newspapers is why I haven't read a national paper in about 4 years. I also don't trust Channel 5 news as it just seems to report the same stuff as were the headlines in the Sun the previous day!! The Daily Mail is about as bad a paper as you can get. I don't need to justify this any further as I also quite openly stated that I am a supporter of Plaid Cymru (a rather left wing party as well as being nationalist!) and my personal beliefs run towards the Welsh nationalist (although I am nowhere near as extreme as some) rather than a national British party.

I asked for links to papers as I assumed the information must have come from somewhere and, knowing that the Conservative party conference had happened last week, knew that there would be a lot of information in various papers recently. I probably should have asked for more general sources of information. However, asking for sources to back up claims that have been made if you as an individual do not know all of the facts is entirely justified and I don't want to be made sound ignorant and stupid because I didn't want to take the word of some person on the internet where all I know about them is what they have said, although you can glean their political leanings, instead of being as informed as possible when you make a conclusion on anything!! Besides, having sources is something that you learn very quickly is incredibly important in order to pass your 1st year, at least that's how it is at Aberystwyth in the International Politics Department, although I must say that it would surprise me if other unis do it massively differently, and indeed in other areas where a judgement needs to be made, but as I don't know I won't judge!

I don't know an awful lot about economics, but, from what I can gather, it's in the nature of a free market to fluctuate. Major fluctuations have happened in 5-10 year intervals in recent history. Labour was lucky to have been elected on the back of a surge in the market. Now we're in a fall. It's like everything in life: what goes up must come down. A period of economic growth cannot be sustained indefinitely. Labour supporters seem to conveniently forget that the main reason Margaret Thatcher came to power in 1979 was as a result of the utter economic and social failure of the preceding Labour governments, which led to events such as the Winter of Discontent that was utterly devastating to the UK economy. Margaret Thatcher then remained in power, in part, due to the utter disarray of the Labour party at that time. Much as Tony Blair remained in power, in part, due to a Conservative party in disarray. The early to mid 1990s also get overlooked- John Major kept things ticking over without doing anything particularly good or bad. Granted, I did not live through the 1980s and so have no firsthand experience of what the 1980s were like. However, academically, I disagree with some things Thatcher did and disagree with the way she enforced other things but, although it's of little comfort to those who suffered due to her policies, I do believe that she did what she thought was best, regardless of how it turned out. I think my point here is that the Conservatives are not wholly bad or good, and neither are Labour. All elected officials can do is their best and sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't but sometimes it's important to try out new ideas. Unfortunately, or fortunately depeding on your point of view, after 12 years of Labour government, many people are going to vote for something different, it's the way of things. I do think it's interesting though, and something of a social commentary on Britain, that, in order to gain power, Labour had to rebrand and become considerably more conservative. But that's another issue.

With regards to the Conservative party being right wing, (I do have a reference in my uni notes from last year but I also have no time to look through everything to find it) there are many political commentators and academics that do argue that the Conservative party are on the centre-right and I am inclined to agree with them.

I would say that, overall, we may have to agree to disagree on political issues but I hope you appreciate that I needed to present my views.

Many apologies to the OP for over running her thread with arguments on political ideology. I hope we can stay more on topic now on.

Beca :wave:

 

[Lou]

PeanutBean- I was just using examples of papers. All the media has some bias. I probably just put it wrong, I have a tendancy to do this sometimes! As I said, I personally use the BBC as it has to put forward 100% fact and varied opinion peices therefore you get a balance. When it comes to newspapers, you will need to read, for example, The Telegraph, The Guardian and, probably, something like The Independent (it does have less bias than most but is usually seen to be Lib Dem leaning) in order to get a balance from newspapers. The problem with the media in general is that it thrives on sensationalism, which works to dilute the facts. The lack of balanced reporting in newspapers is why I haven't read a national paper in about 4 years. I also don't trust Channel 5 news as it just seems to report the same stuff as were the headlines in the Sun the previous day!! The Daily Mail is about as bad a paper as you can get. I don't need to justify this any further as I also quite openly stated that I am a supporter of Plaid Cymru (a rather left wing party as well as being nationalist!) and my personal beliefs run towards the Welsh nationalist (although I am nowhere near as extreme as some) rather than a national British party.

I asked for links to papers as I assumed the information must have come from somewhere and, knowing that the Conservative party conference had happened last week, knew that there would be a lot of information in various papers recently. I probably should have asked for more general sources of information. However, asking for sources to back up claims that have been made if you as an individual do not know all of the facts is entirely justified and I don't want to be made sound ignorant and stupid because I didn't want to take the word of some person on the internet where all I know about them is what they have said, although you can glean their political leanings, instead of being as informed as possible when you make a conclusion on anything!! Besides, having sources is something that you learn very quickly is incredibly important in order to pass your 1st year, at least that's how it is at Aberystwyth in the International Politics Department, although I must say that it would surprise me if other unis do it massively differently, and indeed in other areas where a judgement needs to be made, but as I don't know I won't judge!

I don't know an awful lot about economics, but, from what I can gather, it's in the nature of a free market to fluctuate. Major fluctuations have happened in 5-10 year intervals in recent history. Labour was lucky to have been elected on the back of a surge in the market. Now we're in a fall. It's like everything in life: what goes up must come down. A period of economic growth cannot be sustained indefinitely. Labour supporters seem to conveniently forget that the main reason Margaret Thatcher came to power in 1979 was as a result of the utter economic and social failure of the preceding Labour governments, which led to events such as the Winter of Discontent that was utterly devastating to the UK economy. Margaret Thatcher then remained in power, in part, due to the utter disarray of the Labour party at that time. Much as Tony Blair remained in power, in part, due to a Conservative party in disarray. The early to mid 1990s also get overlooked- John Major kept things ticking over without doing anything particularly good or bad. Granted, I did not live through the 1980s and so have no firsthand experience of what the 1980s were like. However, academically, I disagree with some things Thatcher did and disagree with the way she enforced other things but, although it's of little comfort to those who suffered due to her policies, I do believe that she did what she thought was best, regardless of how it turned out. I think my point here is that the Conservatives are not wholly bad or good, and neither are Labour. All elected officials can do is their best and sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't but sometimes it's important to try out new ideas. Unfortunately, or fortunately depeding on your point of view, after 12 years of Labour government, many people are going to vote for something different, it's the way of things. I do think it's interesting though, and something of a social commentary on Britain, that, in order to gain power, Labour had to rebrand and become considerably more conservative. But that's another issue.

With regards to the Conservative party being right wing, (I do have a reference in my uni notes from last year but I also have no time to look through everything to find it) there are many political commentators and academics that do argue that the Conservative party are on the centre-right and I am inclined to agree with them.

I would say that, overall, we may have to agree to disagree on political issues but I hope you appreciate that I needed to present my views.

Many apologies to the OP for over running her thread with arguments on political ideology. I hope we can stay more on topic now on.

Beca :wave:

I could never dream of writing something as complex as that, but that was a bloody good answer!

xxx

 

[plutosblue]

Ok... after trying to read and make sense of that, my brain hurts!

 

[bunnyg82]

arrggghh I find it all so confusing!! I just don't know what to do for the best! I can't stand Gordon Brown, but I don't know that the tories will be any better. I know people are saying about remembering what the tories did and all that, but I wasn't old enough to know or care at the time they were in to be honest and so I don't remember. Surely they won't automatically do what they did before!? I think for me, I am going to need to do a lot more research into the matter to make my mind before I vote this time!

 

[charliebear]

arrggghh I find it all so confusing!! I just don't know what to do for the best! I can't stand Gordon Brown, but I don't know that the tories will be any better. I know people are saying about remembering what the tories did and all that, but I wasn't old enough to know or care at the time they were in to be honest and so I don't remember. Surely they won't automatically do what they did before!? I think for me, I am going to need to do a lot more research into the matter to make my mind before I vote this time!

See I compleatly agree with this. I havent a clue where to start
That advert that came out 'i dont do politics'...that was me I'm not old enough to remember and now I 'need' to know

 

[EstelSeren]

arrggghh I find it all so confusing!! I just don't know what to do for the best! I can't stand Gordon Brown, but I don't know that the tories will be any better. I know people are saying about remembering what the tories did and all that, but I wasn't old enough to know or care at the time they were in to be honest and so I don't remember. Surely they won't automatically do what they did before!? I think for me, I am going to need to do a lot more research into the matter to make my mind before I vote this time!

That's a very good attitude to have! I only know what the Conservatives did last time because I've studied politics since I was 16 and you get told all that stuff! It's harder now too because there is a distinct lack of ideology in British politics- it's not clear cut anymore!

Lou and Plutosblue: I'm just impressed that people took the time to read all of my last post!! Thanks!!

Beca :wave:

 

[kirstylm]

Gosh - look what I have started!!! Sorry girls.

Well, im still not much clearer but think I will stick with Labour as they lean more towards my person feelings and beliefs on the whole! There is a good website on Channel 4.co.uk if you search political policies or labour vs conservative and go to channel 4 website its a really clear way of understanding their beliefs on environment, schooling etc!

I would like to vote Lib Dem if im honest but lets be real, its between Labour and Conservative really isn't it!

I just hope whover gets in does not take away maternity pay as if that happens, im pretty much screwed!

 

[plutosblue]

Lib dem can never figure out whether they are coming or going lol

 

[PeanutBean]

Gosh - look what I have started!!! Sorry girls.

Well, im still not much clearer but think I will stick with Labour as they lean more towards my person feelings and beliefs on the whole! There is a good website on Channel 4.co.uk if you search political policies or labour vs conservative and go to channel 4 website its a really clear way of understanding their beliefs on environment, schooling etc!

I would like to vote Lib Dem if im honest but lets be real, its between Labour and Conservative really isn't it!

I just hope whover gets in does not take away maternity pay as if that happens, im pretty much screwed!

lol Kirstylm, I bet we are confusing you!

I know it's all my fault for my post about waiting but for me I base my opinion on experience with the parties not on their policies in particular because I know that policies change depending on what the party really wants and also what the economic/social climate at the time of being power is like.

Estel - the source of my comment in my previous post was my own opinion, as I have said, based on my own experiences and not from the media. I appreciate the time you've taken to make that post, I know as a science communicator how much effort sometimes goes into posts on topics we are trained in however I am familiar with much of what you have said particularly with regard to the media. Believe me science is twisted in the media even more than politics and there is no one source that gets it right because they are on the same side.

I did live through the 80s and we were in real poverty. My Dad then got made redundant during the recession in the early 90s and was never employed again. I went on marches year after year against what the Tories were trying to do. Many sectors were striking left right and centre during this time with fatal effects on some sectors. I've been on one march during Labour's rule which was over the Iraq war. There have been one or two others but there has been nothing like the civil upheaval under Labour's rule.

It's true to a certain extent that new governments cannot undo everything that was done before, good or bad, but they can make a whole lot of new mistakes with disastrous consequences. The tories still want the rich to be richer which can only happen at the expense of the poorer. This is evident in it's most basic form by the proposed cuts to child trust funds and child tax credits and the proposed reduction in inheritance tax which only serves to allow the greatest wealth to be shared amongst the smallest number of people. This is what the party stands for. Cameron and his fellow cronies are a lovely gang of Eton kids who have never lived in the real world. I wouldn't trust their judgement as far as I could throw them.

I do not believe that the economic success of this government has been right place right time. I say again Gordon Brown has led the world with his strategies for dealing with this recession. He has been prized by Nobel Prize winners in economics. We may not be experts but they are!

With the greatest respect Estel, and I mean that as I am a scientist who knows the value of peer-reviewed studies, to require specific sources of information on politics is like getting them for history. It is not fact like an empirical study, it's opinion. Even with hindsight people can argue about the impacts of political policy and whether they are good or bad. This is social studies and open to interpretation before, during and after the fact. This is why my opinions are not based on what can be read in the paper or seen on the TV.

Sorry about another massive post!

 

[Summerbee]

In my opinion - short and sweet.

Gordons an idiot. Cameron is worse. BNP are going to be in power at this rate. And the pay freeze? RIDICULOUS. Conseratives 1year maternity leave, isn't being thought through here - after thats over girls, it will be back to work, or no benefits support watsoever.

I am firmly Lib Dem. Standing are as such CON 43%, LAB 29%, LDEM 16%.

Lib Dem will never get in, if people carry on thinking it's "wasted votes". Your making it a wasted vote for all those voting for those parties they TRULY believe in, if your just going to 'bet on the winner' so to speak. Your making the party you believe in, weaker. Vote for who YOU would like to see in power. Even if it is monster mad raving looney party.

 

[faille]

Ouch this thread hurt my head

I'm one of these people who stay away from politics because I don't believe a word any one of them says and I don't care to read in between the lines.

I'm too young to remember tories being in last time and throughout my teens I just didn't give a crap basically.

But recent years have left a bitter taste in my mouth regarding labour and I was swaying towards Cameron. However, after reading this thread, I really don't know what to think. I'm being unfair by jugding labour on their mistakes in recent years and tories on their 'solutions'. I'm not looking at the bad things the tories have done and I'm forgetting the good labour has done.

As for the other parties running, I haven't got a clue what their policies are.

I really don't know who to vote for

 

[PeanutBean]

Oh Faille, it's not easy is it?

I was talking about this thread and another in chat with my parents over lunch today. My Dad told me that his Dad told him that he had voted for all the main parties at one time or another throughout the 20th century since the first world war and that one thing he was sure of from his experience is that if the Conservatives were in power unemployment was always up. If one thinks of the knock-on effects of high unemployment then to me that is a no-brainer.

The lib dem thing is an issue. I was swayed a little after the Iraq war until Tony stepped down. I totally see where people are coming from though with the disillusionment with Labour and the fear of the Tories getting back in. If it's any consolation I am in a very strong Lib Dem area (previously Tory) so my Labour vote will count for absolutely nothing!

 

[morri]

What about the Liberals I have only recently read that there is tow liberal parties : the liberals and the libdems.

 

[PeanutBean]

OK now you confuse me! When we say Liberals we usually mean the Lib Dems (Liberal Democrats). Unless there is a new party I'm not aware of!

Kind of related but kind of unrelated. Like I said before I was chatting with my parents about all this today and my Mum said that the Conservatives have got into bed James Murdock (Rubert Murdock's son) and this is why the Sun has switched allegiance and also means a big deal with Sky. For this reason the Tories have turned against the BBC with policies of big cuts and curbing their internet exposure and various other negative things and for this reason the BBC have now switched allegiance too. It's funny because a couple of days ago I was listening to Radio 4 and it seemed like something positive for Labour. This surprised me as there has been nothing positive the whole of my mat leave and I assumed I'd missed something as I listen in fits and starts at Byron's meal times. Now I know what was happening! My Mum said watching Jeremy Paxman was hilarious with his total U-turn. I might have to tune in to the next Question Time.

Perhaps the BBC being sneakily pro-Labour now will even up the media odds a bit as most of the press is Conservative.

 

[morri]

Yeah there is ^^ . Both party stem from the original liberal party. but i 1988 the liberal party split into those who were for a joining with the socialdemocratics and those who were against it . the one for joining became the libdems , and the other remain the liberals

https://www.liberal.org.uk/

https://www.libdems.org.uk/

 

[PeanutBean]

I remember the SDP before the lib dems. I've never even heard of the liberal party so I don't think can have much standing nationally.

 

[morri]

Yea, and obviously its not as colourful in britian as it is in Germany atm . lol and the big parties have been losing support massively in recent years.