Would you trust the h1n1 shot after this...

[blutea]

it decreases the risk for children in general, but does not decrease the risk for each individual child. This is why those recommendations remain theories. A scientist cannot take 10 children and say "These children out of these 100 are at an increased risk for SIDS, so do this and eliminate that and you will decrease the risk, or your child will not be affected by SIDS".

Until they can prove what the cause is and prove whether SIDS is cessation of the beating heart or cessation of lung function, they cannot make true recommendations based on scientific fact, only on scientific theory.

Its is very very difficult to prove anything for 'fact' in science. there are some variables that it is impossible to control, even under the strictest of conditions. This is why most recommendation, when it comes to medicine and health in general, are largely based on scientific theory.

This is why these experiments are conducted on large scales and repeated to reduce the error but unfortunately it will be hard to eliminate them completely.

Most things these days that we take as 'fact' are indeed only scientific theory. there is always the possibility that x, y or z contributed to the result as well.

And there it is...you explained it exactly how I understand it...vaccines are only scientific theory. I realize you are refering to SIDS but it is also relevant to vaccines.

 

[blutea]

I could say that vampires cause SIDS and until you prove to me otherwise, i'm going to hang garlic around all the windows in my nursery to keep them out. And you know? that would be my choice. Fearing something does not make it, in reality, a real concern.
I'm not trying to make light of vaccine fears, just that the logic applied is so faulty at times it drives me crazy.

Yes, if vampires were visiting our children at 2 months and 4 months of age and tens of thousands of children were dying immediately after their visit, I WOULD suspect the vampires had something to do with the deaths. Your analogy is extremely unfitting. I am not just suggesting some completely random cause.

Lisa, you keep repeating the same fear that misinformation will lead a mother to not vaccinate. I think you should understand that most people who dont vaccinate do so after extensive thought and research. This is because not vaccinating is not any easy choice whatsoever. Here in the US your doctor can and will refuse to treat non-vaccinated children, many of us have to search for and find pediatricians who will treat our non-vaxed children, and often travel much farther to see hem. Also we have to sign waivers and obtain religious or philosophical exemptions to get them into daycare and school. Not to mention having to deal with the negativity from friends, family, and doctors about our decision not to vaccinate. All of these things make it extremely unlikely for someone to not vaccinate based on a few misinfo articles.

The agencies who produce and distribute and develop vaccines are VERY conscious of the consequences of a dangerous product and have passed countless safety protocols to even make it on the market. You put lotion on your skin that has passed far fewer protocols and may have unknown effects. You put sunblock on your child that has chemicals in it that are known to be dangerous on some level.
There is always going to be SOME danger. That does not mean you avoid everything in life.

If a lotion or sunblock came out with an extensive warning label of adverse reactions that include paralysis and death (Have you seen the adverse reactions listed on vaccines?) you can bet your ass I would not be using it.

I do agree wtih this. Lisa, I think it's important to realize that you may be projecting your fear of disease on others.

 

[lisaf]

I do agree wtih this. Lisa, I think it's important to realize that you may be projecting your fear of disease on others.

Well, we know for a fact people die from disease. Any link between death and vaccines cannot be proven and is only a theory.
I always put my faith in facts over theory.

I understand when you've had a reaction to a vaccine, you don't trust them, and you probably shouldn't since you are sensitive.
But your reaction does not guarantee that baby x or y down the street will have any reaction at all.

Sunblocks are full of chemicals which the EWG has concerns about. In particular, my favorite neutrogena sunblock had a bad rating from the EWG because of a chemical in it that is known to cause hormonal, development and reproductive issues. I also had the same chemical in my face wash and lotion and got rid of those. I was having issues getting pregnant, so I was worried about that kind of thing. I wouldn't have even bothered learning about it if I hadn't been having issues. When there are signs of a reaction, then it makes sense to change your behavior.

I do have to argue with the claim that all antivaccinators are well educated on it. I know of 1 woman who didn't want to vaccinate because she'd read some scary stuff online and didn't bother to look further or read into the risks of the diseases. I know another woman who refused to vaccinate based on a rumor that was since disproven. Thats still their choice, but they were just reacting to the scare tactics that some anti-vaccination groups employ.

 

[blutea]

I do agree wtih this. Lisa, I think it's important to realize that you may be projecting your fear of disease on others.

Well, we know for a fact people die from disease. Any link between death and vaccines cannot be proven and is only a theory.
I always put my faith in facts over theory.

I understand when you've had a reaction to a vaccine, you don't trust them, and you probably shouldn't since you are sensitive.
But your reaction does not guarantee that baby x or y down the street will have any reaction at all.

Sunblocks are full of chemicals which the EWG has concerns about. In particular, my favorite neutrogena sunblock had a bad rating from the EWG because of a chemical in it that is known to cause hormonal, development and reproductive issues. I also had the same chemical in my face wash and lotion and got rid of those. I was having issues getting pregnant, so I was worried about that kind of thing. I wouldn't have even bothered learning about it if I hadn't been having issues. When there are signs of a reaction, then it makes sense to change your behavior.

I do have to argue with the claim that all antivaccinators are well educated on it. I know of 1 woman who didn't want to vaccinate because she'd read some scary stuff online and didn't bother to look further or read into the risks of the diseases. I know another woman who refused to vaccinate based on a rumor that was since disproven. Thats still their choice, but they were just reacting to the scare tactics that some anti-vaccination groups employ.

But do you also understand that many more individuals are bullied, intimidated or scared into getting vaccinated when they really don't want to. This happens more often than you would think. It happened to me.

Vaccines are voluntary and no one should be bullied into getting them until they have made an informed choice. Individuals who vaccinate rarely educate themselves on the risks of vaccines and the risks of disease. They are just scared. I have noticed several here who do know the risks but the majority of individuals do not. Like with any medical procedure, vaccines should be an educated decision. But, if your friends choose to not vaccinate based on misinformation or because they are scared that is their choice. Just like it is another persons choice to vaccinate based on a belief of a scare tactic or disinformation.

Several vaccine reactions have been proven...mine was. Several cases have been reviewed that cannot rule out that vaccines did not cause death and I'm sure there are more to come.

 

[lisaf]

This is because not vaccinating is not any easy choice whatsoever. Here in the US your doctor can and will refuse to treat non-vaccinated children, many of us have to search for and find pediatricians who will treat our non-vaxed children, and often travel much farther to see hem. Also we have to sign waivers and obtain religious or philosophical exemptions to get them into daycare and school. Not to mention having to deal with the negativity from friends, family, and doctors about our decision not to vaccinate. All of these things make it extremely unlikely for someone to not vaccinate based on a few misinfo articles.

The very fact that it is so hard to stay vaccine-free helps to make sure that those who do opt out have fully researched their choice.
Not all areas are so strict on this. It may be a bit of a hassle, but its not always a huge pain like you describe.

 

[lisaf]

But do you also understand that many more individuals are bullied, intimidated or scared into getting vaccinated when they really don't want to. This happens more often than you would think. It happened to me.

Vaccines are voluntary and no one should be bullied into getting them until they have made an informed choice. Individuals who vaccinate rarely educate themselves on the risks of vaccines and the risks of disease. They are just scared. I have noticed several where who do know the risks but the majority of individuals don't. Like with any medical procedure, vaccines should be an educated decision.

Several vaccine reactions have been proven...mine was. Several cases have been reviewed that cannot rule out vaccines did not cause death...and I'm sure there are more to come.

My friend who wanted to opt out of the H1N1 vaccine while pregnant was bullied into it. And the difficulties you mentioned in staying vaccine-free are one way of 'bullying' some people into it. But that friend of mine? Had no clue of the potential risks of H1N1 to a pregnant woman... she just read some scary stuff online and decided she didn't want it.
She and the baby are both fine too and she is now glad she was bullied into it.

 

[blutea]

This is because not vaccinating is not any easy choice whatsoever. Here in the US your doctor can and will refuse to treat non-vaccinated children, many of us have to search for and find pediatricians who will treat our non-vaxed children, and often travel much farther to see hem. Also we have to sign waivers and obtain religious or philosophical exemptions to get them into daycare and school. Not to mention having to deal with the negativity from friends, family, and doctors about our decision not to vaccinate. All of these things make it extremely unlikely for someone to not vaccinate based on a few misinfo articles.

The very fact that it is so hard to stay vaccine-free helps to make sure that those who do opt out have fully researched their choice.
Not all areas are so strict on this. It may be a bit of a hassle, but its not always a huge pain like you describe.

that was not my post.

 

[lisaf]

This is because not vaccinating is not any easy choice whatsoever. Here in the US your doctor can and will refuse to treat non-vaccinated children, many of us have to search for and find pediatricians who will treat our non-vaxed children, and often travel much farther to see hem. Also we have to sign waivers and obtain religious or philosophical exemptions to get them into daycare and school. Not to mention having to deal with the negativity from friends, family, and doctors about our decision not to vaccinate. All of these things make it extremely unlikely for someone to not vaccinate based on a few misinfo articles.

The very fact that it is so hard to stay vaccine-free helps to make sure that those who do opt out have fully researched their choice.
Not all areas are so strict on this. It may be a bit of a hassle, but its not always a huge pain like you describe.

that was not my post.

Sorry! I used your post where you quoted that quote and screwed up when I was trying to downsize it I fixed it now in my post.

 

[blutea]

But do you also understand that many more individuals are bullied, intimidated or scared into getting vaccinated when they really don't want to. This happens more often than you would think. It happened to me.

Vaccines are voluntary and no one should be bullied into getting them until they have made an informed choice. Individuals who vaccinate rarely educate themselves on the risks of vaccines and the risks of disease. They are just scared. I have noticed several where who do know the risks but the majority of individuals don't. Like with any medical procedure, vaccines should be an educated decision.

Several vaccine reactions have been proven...mine was. Several cases have been reviewed that cannot rule out vaccines did not cause death...and I'm sure there are more to come.

My friend who wanted to opt out of the H1N1 vaccine while pregnant was bullied into it. And the difficulties you mentioned in staying vaccine-free are one way of 'bullying' some people into it. But that friend of mine? Had no clue of the potential risks of H1N1 to a pregnant woman... she just read some scary stuff online and decided she didn't want it.
She and the baby are both fine too and she is now glad she was bullied into it.

Who bullied her? I would never attempt to bully anyone into not vaccinating! That really surprises me.

 

[blutea]

This is because not vaccinating is not any easy choice whatsoever. Here in the US your doctor can and will refuse to treat non-vaccinated children, many of us have to search for and find pediatricians who will treat our non-vaxed children, and often travel much farther to see hem. Also we have to sign waivers and obtain religious or philosophical exemptions to get them into daycare and school. Not to mention having to deal with the negativity from friends, family, and doctors about our decision not to vaccinate. All of these things make it extremely unlikely for someone to not vaccinate based on a few misinfo articles.

The very fact that it is so hard to stay vaccine-free helps to make sure that those who do opt out have fully researched their choice.
Not all areas are so strict on this. It may be a bit of a hassle, but its not always a huge pain like you describe.

that was not my post.

Sorry! I used your post where you quoted that quote and screwed up when I was trying to downsize it I fixed it now in my post.

It still looks like it is quoting me. I guess it doesn't really matter though. I just didn't want the other individual thinking I claimed her post.

 

[lisaf]

This is because not vaccinating is not any easy choice whatsoever. Here in the US your doctor can and will refuse to treat non-vaccinated children, many of us have to search for and find pediatricians who will treat our non-vaxed children, and often travel much farther to see hem. Also we have to sign waivers and obtain religious or philosophical exemptions to get them into daycare and school. Not to mention having to deal with the negativity from friends, family, and doctors about our decision not to vaccinate. All of these things make it extremely unlikely for someone to not vaccinate based on a few misinfo articles.

The very fact that it is so hard to stay vaccine-free helps to make sure that those who do opt out have fully researched their choice.
Not all areas are so strict on this. It may be a bit of a hassle, but its not always a huge pain like you describe.

I thought this fixed it? hmmm...

and my friend was bullied by the nurse who told her she just came from helping a woman who got the swine flu and lost her baby. So I do sort of understand why the nurse was a bit 'short' with my friend as she's human too and that must have been hard to handle. I don't agree with her bullying my friend though.

 

[blutea]

This is because not vaccinating is not any easy choice whatsoever. Here in the US your doctor can and will refuse to treat non-vaccinated children, many of us have to search for and find pediatricians who will treat our non-vaxed children, and often travel much farther to see hem. Also we have to sign waivers and obtain religious or philosophical exemptions to get them into daycare and school. Not to mention having to deal with the negativity from friends, family, and doctors about our decision not to vaccinate. All of these things make it extremely unlikely for someone to not vaccinate based on a few misinfo articles.

The very fact that it is so hard to stay vaccine-free helps to make sure that those who do opt out have fully researched their choice.
Not all areas are so strict on this. It may be a bit of a hassle, but its not always a huge pain like you describe.

Making it difficult to stay vaccine free is not a good thing. Vaccines are voluntary and no one should EVER feel bullied into or out of them. It is a personal choice and it is not a good thing that it is so hard to opt out in some areas.

 

[lisaf]

I'm saying its good because it makes people stop and be VERY sure and do the research. Its likely to weed out those who just hear something scary online and decide to opt out without looking further.

It shouldn't be so very hard as you described, but its not THAT hard in all areas.

 

[BrandiCanucks]

I think you're contradicting your no-vaccine self from a few posts back.

You may be confusing my stance on vaccines. I've never once claimed to be anti-vaccine. I choose not to vaccinate because, although it has not yet been proven that my daughter's condition was a result of vaccinations, it is very possible this is what caused it, and until I know for sure, we will not be vaccinating further.

I'm not completely against them, I just don't believe they are right for my family.

 

[KandyKinz]

I think you're contradicting your no-vaccine self from a few posts back.

You may be confusing my stance on vaccines. I've never once claimed to be anti-vaccine. I choose not to vaccinate because, although it has not yet been proven that my daughter's condition was a result of vaccinations, it is very possible this is what caused it, and until I know for sure, we will not be vaccinating further.

I'm not completely against them, I just don't believe they are right for my family.

I didn't say you were anti-vaccine I just said you were no-vaccine.. as in no vaccines for your family.

 

[blutea]

But do you also understand that many more individuals are bullied, intimidated or scared into getting vaccinated when they really don't want to. This happens more often than you would think. It happened to me.

Vaccines are voluntary and no one should be bullied into getting them until they have made an informed choice. Individuals who vaccinate rarely educate themselves on the risks of vaccines and the risks of disease. They are just scared. I have noticed several where who do know the risks but the majority of individuals don't. Like with any medical procedure, vaccines should be an educated decision.

Several vaccine reactions have been proven...mine was. Several cases have been reviewed that cannot rule out vaccines did not cause death...and I'm sure there are more to come.

My friend who wanted to opt out of the H1N1 vaccine while pregnant was bullied into it. And the difficulties you mentioned in staying vaccine-free are one way of 'bullying' some people into it. But that friend of mine? Had no clue of the potential risks of H1N1 to a pregnant woman... she just read some scary stuff online and decided she didn't want it.
She and the baby are both fine too and she is now glad she was bullied into it.

Who bullied her? I would never attempt to bully anyone into not vaccinating! That really surprises me.

and my friend was bullied by the nurse who told her she just came from helping a woman who got the swine flu and lost her baby. So I do sort of understand why the nurse was a bit 'short' with my friend as she's human too and that must have been hard to handle. I don't agree with her bullying my friend though.

Oh, wait...I misunderstood earlier when I was surprised. I thought I had read that your friend had been bullied into NOT getting the vaccine. Now I see that she was bullied into gettting the vaccine. I understand now...I'm not surprised then. Most people regret being bullied.

 

[blutea]

I'm saying its good because it makes people stop and be VERY sure and do the research. Its likely to weed out those who just hear something scary online and decide to opt out without looking further.

It shouldn't be so very hard as you described, but its not THAT hard in all areas.

But even the people who make a decision based on something they read still have a right to their choice to not vaccinate. Just like a person who chooses to remain uneducated about vaccines and disease has a right to vaccinate. Vaccines are voluntary afterall. However, I still feel it is better to make an educated decision BEFORE a person chooses to vaccinate. I feel it is wise to not vaccinate until a person really understands the risks of vaccines and the risks of disease. Most people do not take the time to learn this and choose to vaccinate because of scare tatics. That is the bottom line.

 

[Blue_bumpkin]

it decreases the risk for children in general, but does not decrease the risk for each individual child. This is why those recommendations remain theories. A scientist cannot take 10 children and say "These children out of these 100 are at an increased risk for SIDS, so do this and eliminate that and you will decrease the risk, or your child will not be affected by SIDS".

Until they can prove what the cause is and prove whether SIDS is cessation of the beating heart or cessation of lung function, they cannot make true recommendations based on scientific fact, only on scientific theory.

Its is very very difficult to prove anything for 'fact' in science. there are some variables that it is impossible to control, even under the strictest of conditions. This is why most recommendation, when it comes to medicine and health in general, are largely based on scientific theory.

This is why these experiments are conducted on large scales and repeated to reduce the error but unfortunately it will be hard to eliminate them completely.

Most things these days that we take as 'fact' are indeed only scientific theory. there is always the possibility that x, y or z contributed to the result as well.

And there it is...you explained it exactly how I understand it...vaccines are only scientific theory. I realize you are refering to SIDS but it is also relevant to vaccines.

See i don't understand that logic.

Vaccines have been shown to produce a positive protective reaction from the immune system.

Our immune system is made up of specific cells which react with specific microorganisms. The protection a vaccine provides cannot be a result of some other factor. Previous exposure to a disease makes the body more efficient at dealing with it second time round iykwim so vaccines aid recovery from diseases to a great extent although they do not 'prevent' infection as some ppl think.

So no vaccines are not just theory.

ETA: if that was not what you were referrring to then I apologise but I wasn't sure what you meant.

 

[blutea]

it decreases the risk for children in general, but does not decrease the risk for each individual child. This is why those recommendations remain theories. A scientist cannot take 10 children and say "These children out of these 100 are at an increased risk for SIDS, so do this and eliminate that and you will decrease the risk, or your child will not be affected by SIDS".

Until they can prove what the cause is and prove whether SIDS is cessation of the beating heart or cessation of lung function, they cannot make true recommendations based on scientific fact, only on scientific theory.

Its is very very difficult to prove anything for 'fact' in science. there are some variables that it is impossible to control, even under the strictest of conditions. This is why most recommendation, when it comes to medicine and health in general, are largely based on scientific theory.

This is why these experiments are conducted on large scales and repeated to reduce the error but unfortunately it will be hard to eliminate them completely.

Most things these days that we take as 'fact' are indeed only scientific theory. there is always the possibility that x, y or z contributed to the result as well.

And there it is...you explained it exactly how I understand it...vaccines are only scientific theory. I realize you are refering to SIDS but it is also relevant to vaccines.

See i don't understand that logic.

Vaccines have been shown to produce a positive protective reaction from the immune system.

Our immune system is made up of specific cells which react with specific microorganisms. The protection a vaccine provides cannot be a result of some other factor. Previous exposure to a disease makes the body more efficient at dealing with it second time round iykwim so vaccines aid recovery from diseases to a great extent although they do not 'prevent' infection as some ppl think.

So no vaccines are not just theory.

ETA: if that was not what you were referrring to then I apologise but I wasn't sure what you meant.

Okay, that makes sense. I get that. However, just so you are aware, most people, many on this board included, do believe that vaccines prevent infection. It wasn't so long ago that this is what everyone thought. It was once thought that a person had complete, lfie long immunity after a vaccine but now we know they only last a few years, if they work at all for that individual. And even today, vaccines are toted to save lives, prevent disease and are attributed to eradications of disease by doctors, nurses and the media. Also, most people consider it a vaccine failure when a person is vaccinated for a disease and then contracts that very same disease.

So, the theory about vaccines keeps changing. Vaccines are a theory...a grand science experiment.

 

[Justagirlxx]

I could say that vampires cause SIDS and until you prove to me otherwise, i'm going to hang garlic around all the windows in my nursery to keep them out. And you know? that would be my choice. Fearing something does not make it, in reality, a real concern.
I'm not trying to make light of vaccine fears, just that the logic applied is so faulty at times it drives me crazy.

Yes, if vampires were visiting our children at 2 months and 4 months of age and tens of thousands of children were dying immediately after their visit, I WOULD suspect the vampires had something to do with the deaths. Your analogy is extremely unfitting. I am not just suggesting some completely random cause.

Vaccines don't cause SIDS. If they do then why doesn't every child vaccinated fall victim to it? SIDS is so rare that when compared to the number of people vaccinating their children, I cant see how anyone could definitively deduce cause and effect.

Many studies conducted have concluded that some children who have died from SIDS actually had slight abnormalities in the regions of the brain that control breathing etc.. These abnormalities are something, these children are born with.

The anitbodies a child inherits from its mother start to dwindle from 8 weeks, which is why it is thought that the risk peaks between 2-4 months and also why breastfeeding and vaccination reduces the risk. Statistics also show that several victims had been ill, even if only slight, in the few weeks prior to death.

And thats not even taking into account prenatal factors that increase the risk.

Like I said, definitively proving a cause for SIDS will be near impossible. People can only do what they feel is right. For every positive there will be a negative. im sure almost every person does their own research and makes an informed decision for their child that is neither right nor wrong.

For people who have been directly affected by SIDS, its difficult to accept without being able to lay blame or find an actual cause or reason for the loss.

SIDS on the whole is random and unexplained.

This is taken from the bupa website:

Causes of cot death
Identified causes
A specific cause is identified in around one in 10 cot deaths. Possible causes include serious infection, accident, or a previously unknown problem that the baby was born with (a 'congenital' condition) such as a heart defect or lung problem.

SIDS
If no specific cause can be found to explain the death, it's defined as SIDS. Research has suggested that a number of different factors may be linked to SIDS. It's believed that these factors don't actually cause SIDS, but may make a baby more at risk. These factors include:

allergies
bacterial and viral infections
unknown genetic conditions
problems in the area of the brain that controls breathing
irregular heartbeat
accidental suffocation
overheating

Until 'Recent vaccination' is listed as a risk factor then, personally, I am not going to worry.

I respect everyone elses decision though and wish those who are still currently deciding the best of luck with it

So basically your arguement is that since not every child vaccinated dies from SIDs, that proves there is no link? That makes no sense at all. Why doesn't every child who is vaccinated fall victim to an adverse reaction?? Not every child vaccinated has a vaccine reaction but that doesn't mean it doesn't cause one in SOME children. Also SIDS is NOT uncommon. It is actually the leading cause of death in children under the age of one.

Also, there is absolutely no reason why we shouldn't be able to find an exact cause for SIDS someday. We know the exact cause of many other diseases.

Why are you so completely rude? Did you even read my entire post? If so then that is not 'basically my argument', my point was your talking as if vaccines do definitely cause SIDS which there is no proof for. And when I said why dont all vaccinated children fall victim that was a genuine question posed to you? The majority of children are fine post vaccination . While I agree there are risks to vaccinating, you dont seem to be able to accept that there are risks with not vaccinating. its quite clear you arent open to ANY kind of criticism whatsoever so what is the point in still arguing?

and fyi i said 'definitively proving a cause for SIDS will be near impossible' i didn't say we will never find a cause and that we shouldnt. i am not wasting anymore of my time on your posts.

With your selective reading you also failed to comment on the other points i made. Why is that?

i was very polite in mine and said i respect other ppls decision, why dont you do the same.

I never said I dont respect your decision. I said your argument made no sense. Also I didn't comment on the SIDs risk factors because I have a 3 week old who started crying. Anyways someone else commented on that for me and I agree with her. Those are just risk factors, they aren't the cause, and they dont disprove a link with vaccinations.