Would you trust the h1n1 shot after this...

[lisaf]

Oh a friend just informed me that there's a new MMR vaccine out, manufactured by Japan. Much safer, less side effects compared to existing MMRs. However, advised to only administer when a child reaches 3 years old. Will ask her for more info.

Even with existing MMR vaccines, if I ever had to give my child that, I would wait until he/she is old enough to handle it.

LISAF, that's harsh, why weren't patients duly informed by Doc's on the side effects, etc? It's terrible! I think Docs and Pharmacists have a very serious duty to inform their patients instead of just dispensing and prescribing drugs.

Problem is, the new vaccine hasn't been tested over time... just can't win, you know?

The issue apparently is that the package insert was only given to patients who had to pick up their device at the pharmacy... when the doctor's office provided the device, they never seemed to pass on the insert. Doctors are often patronizing and think they know best.

My doctor who put me on provigil did not warn me about any of the side effects... and when I told him about my 3 day headache and lack of appetite, he just said 'yep, that can happen'.... luckily I look at stuff online and made sure I knew which side effects were dangerous and knew those weren't dangerous ones...
I agree.. it can be criminal, but the patient should take charge of their own health too.

Alright, you roped me in with that last one, lol... nite

 

[blutea]

I wasn't offering the CDC site a proof that vaccines are safe.
I was putting it up to link to some evidence that vaccines have worked. (not saying all vaccines work as well as they say, but there are some vaccines that have had such a dramatic effect on occurances of disease that you can't say vaccines have never been proven to work).

I think you should in fact post more of sites like this. Parents and parents to be need to be more informed on both sides of the spectrum, and also in between so that people can have a better pictures.

Thanks, I just didn't want it dismissed because its on the 'internet' or because it comes from the pro-vaccine side of things. I felt the information was pretty good at the site.. especially explaining the statistics that are often misrepresented by the anti-vaccine movement (I'm talking about the claim that more kids who have been vaccinated get the illness than those who don't).

The site did say "Even one serious adverse event in a million doses of vaccine cannot be justified if there is no benefit from the vaccination." Its just trying to contradict the claims that vaccines don't do anything.. and discussing the known risks etc.

I know that people feel their reactions are not taken seriously by the vaccine industry... but let me tell you, some people will blame ANYTHING on vaccines or Mirena or whatever... there was a woman who blamed Mirena for ending her marriage! The anti-Mirena group made it hard for me to find any information about what I was dealing with after mine was removed. I'm not saying there weren't more side effects than the companys will admit, but the issue seemed to be that most women weren't given the package insert or properly informed of the possible side effects. Some things are a coincidence and unrelated to a vaccine or a medical device etc. Yet people out there believe it all is incontrovertible 'proof' of something.

No, you misunderstand I said "vaccines have never been proven to be safe or effective" I am not dismissing them and saying they do nothing. I accept the fact that they exist but they can be dangerous and they do not work for everyone.

 

[blutea]

Just because it is on the internet doesn't mean it is correct.

Well I can't post a book on here Only have links to the internet... I think the CDC is a pretty reputable source for information?

I meant for the other link. Your post went up before I submitted. I meant to say that I never heard of whale.to as a reputable research publication. If it is found in pub med, "Nature," and government sites, I'm more likely to believe the credential. I looked at the whaler.to link but it does not give statistic significance value, or p-value.

There are crazy doctors out there just publish their theories on net which are not studied by reputable and credential researcher to be accounted for.

You are welcome to do more research for yourself. The sources are sited.

 

[MilosMommy7]

i wouldnt get it to begin with. they kept asking me to get the flu shot and the h1n1 shot when i was pregant. but i was not doing it with the baby in me. i didnt want to expose us to anything dangerous when it came to the h1n1. when i was pregnant they were still fairly new (h1n1 shot) and i just didnt feel safe.
and to add, i never got a cold once my entire prgnancy.
edit- i feel so sorry for that lady. it's such a shame what happened to her. i hope her husband stays strong and sticks by her side and doesnt become overwhelmed after awhile with taking care of her.

 

[Ajisai]

There is no proof that vaccines save lives...it's theory. Vaccines are a great theory but they have never been proven to be safe or effective. As we are now discovering an individual can still contract an illness even after they have been vaccinated.

Theory? I disagree. The vaccine expose antigen to the body and immune system creates antibodies which combat the infections. Some memory t cell may be destroyed and you may need to be inoculated again. Also, different strands and mutation make it very difficult to protect from every possible permutation of disease out in the world. And we all have different immune potential, otherwise we would be wiped out thousands of years ago.

It is up to us to weigh the risk vs benefit. But you really have to be careful where to get information from the net. Go with pubmed to search topic and try to chose reputable publications or government site.

 

[PeanutBean]

This thread has really grown overnight! Sorry for all the illhealth and bad medical practice. Oftenconventional medical care does suffer from complacency and things like over-prescription of antibiotics is a serious issue. I hear we are coming to the end if their efficacy and currently have no new alternatives. Scary thought!

Blutea I'm sorry about your experience with vaccinations, certainly encephalitis is a risk with all vaccinations and it sounds like something in your family's composition is particularly susceptible to bad reactions. It's good you've been able to identify it and appropriately but I must stress that you are the 1 in 10,000 and whilst this is appropriate action for you it doesn't follow it is for the vast majority.

There certainly is evidence that vaccinations are effective. And I am compelled to add that the only ting I have ever heard about whale.to is that it is full on unfounded conspiracy theories with no evidence to back them up.

On the drugs in pregnancy and the likes. It would be great if regular symptoms and reactions and non-reactions were collated routinely but I guess there are issues of data protection and the sample could become biased through self-selection. For independent trials that are missing the problem is mostly down to ethics obstructing the possibility of the recognised double-blind trial. Either through risks - it wouldn't be ethical to trial drugs on pregnant women, most drugs don't say safe because they have never been tested however it might be that millions more would be just fine. It also wouldn't be ethical to withhold drugs/vaccinations from groups of people to create a control group. It's difficult and in the UK and most places there are many strict regulations that have to be met for things to be passed as safe. Though funding is also an issue. If there is no money to be made who is going to be paying for the research? There certainly isn't sufficient funds in the public coffers.

It's complicated and there are risks both ways but it's done in the public interest. Every now and then the public interest is not an individal's interest but we live in and benefit from our society and that is the price that is paid.

 

[KandyKinz]

LOL I should have studied to become a doctor. Free holidays every year. (just kidding)

Ha! But it's surely not worth not having a life every other day of the year! IMO...

 

[blutea]

There is no proof that vaccines save lives...it's theory. Vaccines are a great theory but they have never been proven to be safe or effective. As we are now discovering an individual can still contract an illness even after they have been vaccinated.

Theory? I disagree. The vaccine expose antigen to the body and immune system creates antibodies which combat the infections. Some memory t cell may be destroyed and you may need to be inoculated again. Also, different strands and mutation make it very difficult to protect from every possible permutation of disease out in the world. And we all have different immune potential, otherwise we would be wiped out thousands of years ago.

It is up to us to weigh the risk vs benefit. But you really have to be careful where to get information from the net. Go with pubmed to search topic and try to chose reputable publications or government site.

Antibodies do not equal immunity. And as you explained, the t cells can die anyway after vaccination creating the problem that people need boosters every few years and even this isn't always helping. The vaccine theory is constantly changing. Studes are showing that the antibodies created from vaccines are not prepared for true wild viruses and people are contracting them regardless of vaccines and people who are vaccinated are spreading illness. For example- Mumps, chicken pox, Whooping cough...just to name a few. The only true way to build life long immunity is to catch a disease natually and develope antibodies through the mouth, nose, gut, intestines, immune system. Injecting antigens and viral protein into the bloodstream does not even compare because it bypasses all of these immune barriers. I do agree that we all have to make this decision for ourselves. There is a lot of hype for and against vaccines. It takes many hours of research to get to the bottom of it. Science is always changing and being proven wrong at every turn.

 

[aragornlover8]

There is no proof that vaccines save lives...it's theory. Vaccines are a great theory but they have never been proven to be safe or effective. As we are now discovering an individual can still contract an illness even after they have been vaccinated.

Theory? I disagree. The vaccine expose antigen to the body and immune system creates antibodies which combat the infections. Some memory t cell may be destroyed and you may need to be inoculated again. Also, different strands and mutation make it very difficult to protect from every possible permutation of disease out in the world. And we all have different immune potential, otherwise we would be wiped out thousands of years ago.

It is up to us to weigh the risk vs benefit. But you really have to be careful where to get information from the net. Go with pubmed to search topic and try to chose reputable publications or government site.

Antibodies do not equal immunity. And as you explained, the t cells can die anywhere after vaccination creating the problem that people need boosters every few years and even this isn't always helping. Studes are showing that the antibodies created from vaccines are not prepared for true wild viruses and people are contracting them regardless of vaccines and people who are vaccinated are spreading illness. For example- Mumps, chicken pox, Whooping cough...just to name a few. The only true way to build life long immunity is to catch a disease natually and develope antibodies through the mouth, nose, gut, intestines, immune system. Injecting antigens and viral protein into the bloodstream does not even compare because it bypasses all of these immune barriers. I do agree that we all have to make this decision for ourselves. There is a lot of hype for and against vaccines. It takes many hours of research to get to the bottom of it. Science is always changing and being proven wrong at every turn.

I'm not trying to be argumentative (am honestly just curious) but what about the near eradication of small pox via vaccinations?

 

[blutea]

There is no proof that vaccines save lives...it's theory. Vaccines are a great theory but they have never been proven to be safe or effective. As we are now discovering an individual can still contract an illness even after they have been vaccinated.

Theory? I disagree. The vaccine expose antigen to the body and immune system creates antibodies which combat the infections. Some memory t cell may be destroyed and you may need to be inoculated again. Also, different strands and mutation make it very difficult to protect from every possible permutation of disease out in the world. And we all have different immune potential, otherwise we would be wiped out thousands of years ago.

It is up to us to weigh the risk vs benefit. But you really have to be careful where to get information from the net. Go with pubmed to search topic and try to chose reputable publications or government site.

Antibodies do not equal immunity. And as you explained, the t cells can die anywhere after vaccination creating the problem that people need boosters every few years and even this isn't always helping. Studes are showing that the antibodies created from vaccines are not prepared for true wild viruses and people are contracting them regardless of vaccines and people who are vaccinated are spreading illness. For example- Mumps, chicken pox, Whooping cough...just to name a few. The only true way to build life long immunity is to catch a disease natually and develope antibodies through the mouth, nose, gut, intestines, immune system. Injecting antigens and viral protein into the bloodstream does not even compare because it bypasses all of these immune barriers. I do agree that we all have to make this decision for ourselves. There is a lot of hype for and against vaccines. It takes many hours of research to get to the bottom of it. Science is always changing and being proven wrong at every turn.

I'm not trying to be argumentative (am honestly just curious) but what about the near eradication of small pox via vaccinations?

As I tried to explain before, small pox was in sharp decline prior to the vaccine introduction. It would have continued to decline natually and without the vaccine due to better sanitation, safer food pratices, cleaner hygeine and better living condtions. I understand hesitation and fear of disease...I felt that way once too. But once a person really studies each disease and ways to manage them it really isn't so scarey. Most of these childhood illnesses are mild to moderate and actually help our bodies develop. Not to mention they offer life long immunity. I encourage everyone to do their own research and do what is best for their own family.

 

[aragornlover8]

Sorry. I must have missed that when glancing back over the thread.

 

[lisaf]

blutea - I'd love to see the data showing that smallpox was on the decline... I've never heard that substantiated.

 

[Ajisai]

Antibodies do not equal immunity. And as you explained, the t cells can die anyway after vaccination creating the problem that people need boosters every few years and even this isn't always helping. The vaccine theory is constantly changing. Studes are showing that the antibodies created from vaccines are not prepared for true wild viruses and people are contracting them regardless of vaccines and people who are vaccinated are spreading illness. For example- Mumps, chicken pox, Whooping cough...just to name a few. The only true way to build life long immunity is to catch a disease natually and develope antibodies through the mouth, nose, gut, intestines, immune system. Injecting antigens and viral protein into the bloodstream does not even compare because it bypasses all of these immune barriers. I do agree that we all have to make this decision for ourselves. There is a lot of hype for and against vaccines. It takes many hours of research to get to the bottom of it. Science is always changing and being proven wrong at every turn.

Antibodies are the trigger of immune response. It recognize the disease and all amazing cascade of immune response happen. Cell mediated response such as macrophage and neutrophil cannot destroy disease alone. We need humoral immune response, which is triggered by antigens. In the nut shell, that's how our wonderful immune system works. So creating antigen from vaccine and having memory cells in our body help us protect from future infection of the particular disease. The reason why it is very difficult to protect us completely from disease is because they mutate. So even if you had vaccine or you naturally developed immune response from previous exposure, you could get infected with mutated disease. For example, RNA based viruses mutate far too quickly than DNA virus. That is why it is very difficult to create vaccine for HIV.

Injection is the most effective route of infection. Why do you think doctors and nurses contract Hepatitis C from needlestick exposure? Trust me, we are not kissing patients.

 

[KandyKinz]

I still can't seem to get off the fence in regards to this subject

Everyone is raising really good points... And although there is limited "good" research on the anti-vaccine debate that certainly doesn't mean that there is no merit behind that movement! Funding well designed studies and finding particpants to go against government pushed policies is a very difficult thing to do....

Anyways, despite this excellent thread I'm still right back to where I started in thinking that A. Immunizations DO ACTUALLY WORK at reducing disease B. Immunizations are NOT AS EFFECTIVE against protecting against disease as most people assume they are and C. It is highly likely that immunizations have wide spread ADVERSE EFFECTS on those who receive them.

Blah! I think we're all f*ck*d either way!

 

[blutea]

Blah! I think we're all f*ck*d either way!

I would agree with that!

 

[blutea]

blutea - I'd love to see the data showing that smallpox was on the decline... I've never heard that substantiated.

Sure thing. Start here- https://www.vaclib.org/intro/present/index3.htm and keep researching. There was actually a sharp increase in the disease shortly after the vaccine was introduced. The vaccine was causing the illness for some time. Just like the live polio virus vaccine.

 

[lisaf]

I hate seeing things like that cartoon at the bottom of the page showing people with cow parts growing out of their faces/bodies. That just says to me that people have irrational fears about vaccines.

Not that all fears are irrational.... just that there have always been lies spread about vaccines.

hope that makes sense, I'm not doubting everything they said but it just makes them look like they see nothing wrong with that cartoon and makes me think of the authors of the site a certain way.

 

[KandyKinz]

I hate seeing things like that cartoon at the bottom of the page showing people with cow parts growing out of their faces/bodies. That just says to me that people have irrational fears about vaccines.

Not that all fears are irrational.... just that there have always been lies spread about vaccines.

hope that makes sense, I'm not doubting everything they said but it just makes them look like they see nothing wrong with that cartoon and makes me think of the authors of the site a certain way.

While I do admit that website could have been designed to appear more credible... I actually liked the cartoon at the bottom It says it was done in 1802 (which is weird cause I thought immunizations weren't invented until the mid to late 1800's.... guess I need to brush up on my history)... Anyways, I love to catch little glimpses into the past! And I think the key reason of it being there is to promote the idea that this concern about immunizations has been present since the beginning rather then to sway people into becoming anti-vaccine activists.

 

[lisaf]

I hate seeing things like that cartoon at the bottom of the page showing people with cow parts growing out of their faces/bodies. That just says to me that people have irrational fears about vaccines.

Not that all fears are irrational.... just that there have always been lies spread about vaccines.

hope that makes sense, I'm not doubting everything they said but it just makes them look like they see nothing wrong with that cartoon and makes me think of the authors of the site a certain way.

While I do admit that website could have been designed to appear more credible... I actually liked the cartoon at the bottom It says it was done in 1802 (which is weird cause I thought immunizations weren't invented until the mid to late 1800's.... guess I need to brush up on my history)... Anyways, I love to catch little glimpses into the past! And I think the key reason of it being there is to promote the idea that this concern about immunizations has been present since the beginning rather then to sway people into becoming anti-vaccine activists.

I agree, but I think they should have addressed it by acknowledging how unfounded the fears in the cartoon were, instead, it almost appears as another piece of 'evidence'.

I do love seeing the old stuff too but it was throw up there almost the same as all their other 'evidence'. Just rubbed me the wrong way.

 

[KandyKinz]

I found another interesting link.... I'm tired so I haven't read it entirely yet but it looks like it may be informative though a little bit biased.... But isn't everything we read?!?!

https://books.google.ca/books?hl=en...Chb4orc#v=onepage&q=immunization adhd&f=false