An independent Scotland?

[rosie272]

The vile display at George Square in Glasgow last night isn't even a new thing! We have this shit going on in our city all year round. Orange Walks, Old Firm games (when Celtic and Rangers were in the same league), they even tried to organise marches to coincide with the closing ceremony of the (amazing imo) Commonwealth games!!
I'm not stupid enough to think these scumbags represent the NO voters, they represent a tiny minority and I'll bet half of them didn't even vote at all! I have friends and family who voted NO for their own reasons (although we did try hard to turn them ) I refuse to get involved in slanging matches and vote rigging chat! It will serve no purpose but to drive myself nuts!
Since the advent of Celtic and Rangers, Glasgow has deep rooted sectarian divide and I can't see how that is ever going to go away when just today a huge orange walk was given the go ahead and there was hundreds of kids and babies there! I feel the same about Republican marches, there are always kids at those too - what chance do they have? I love Glasgow and I'm a proud Glaswegian but when this crap rears its ugly head it makes me want to head for the hills. I don't want my son to grow up amongst it - and at times like this its impossible to avoid

 

[Quartz]

Rallies always attract a certain type of person who wants to make trouble they probably did not care about the vote they just want to make trouble

its the same with politicians not one does not work from an agenda that suits them personally - however much it does meet the needs of the people ultimately they will never deviate from a path that does not meet their needs as well.

Scotland should get the devolved powers, not least of all because a lot of the issues facing England are to do with overcrowding, London has a population double that of Scotland so is going to face different issues. The problem is not that they want to backtrack on devo max per se but its the implications it has on England Parliament, how do you create an English Assembly, do you take all the MPs from each country as to who is Prime Minister but then how do sort out the fact that if you take the other countries out (Sadly) England would be far more UKIP and Conservative then the others.

ITs opened up a whole can of worms it is going to be difficult to sort out.

Without meaning to be inflamatory as I am geniunely interested and admit I might live in a bubble. I get to some extent wanting independence and the need to be a separate country and not wanting to be ruled by a tory government you did not vote for and I realise that Margaret Thatcher did a lot of damage but what is unequal now? From a naive perspective you have a better deal on education (free Univeristy) better housing buying system better house prices. Feel free to tell me I am being a naive Londoner but I just dont get some of the anger towards the english

Sorry, I was at YES rallies and they were certainly NOT about causing trouble.

There is no anger towards the English!!!!!! It is about Westminster, not "the English" for goodness sake.

Scotland did not vote for the Torys, that is the problem. Why should we be subjected to a government we didn't vote for?

As for free education/ prescriptions etc, they are devolved to the Scottish parliament and come from our overall budget, therefore we don't spend as much on other things. We voted for a government who had these things in their policy (SNP).

First off I never said the YES rallies were causing trouble, I was saying that rallies in general can attract people who are simply wanting to cause trouble and attend to do so.

I understand the oart about it being devolved my point is that in many ways outside of having a Government they did not vote for Scotland sounds a better place to live than London, this Government has screwed over a lot of people and what comes across is that somehow Scotland have been more than England and I dont personally think that is the case.

I also feel that sometimes its not just Westminster I have seen comments on this thread and on facebook that make me feel like that (and I am not including you) relating to London and the South East as if Westminster somehow favours us and really it doesn't.

I think selfishly though it partly cos we dont want to be stuck with a Conservative Government either.

I guess part of the problem though with things like the NHS is that Scotland could run an NHS quite happily. We cant so much the sheer number of people we have puts a strain on it so much that it cant cope, I mean they are predicting 2 million more people are going to come to London in the next 15 years so I agree that the issues that affect us are not going to be the same but that does not amount to favourtism.

 

[Debi]

Rallies always attract a certain type of person who wants to make trouble they probably did not care about the vote they just want to make trouble

its the same with politicians not one does not work from an agenda that suits them personally - however much it does meet the needs of the people ultimately they will never deviate from a path that does not meet their needs as well.

Scotland should get the devolved powers, not least of all because a lot of the issues facing England are to do with overcrowding, London has a population double that of Scotland so is going to face different issues. The problem is not that they want to backtrack on devo max per se but its the implications it has on England Parliament, how do you create an English Assembly, do you take all the MPs from each country as to who is Prime Minister but then how do sort out the fact that if you take the other countries out (Sadly) England would be far more UKIP and Conservative then the others.

ITs opened up a whole can of worms it is going to be difficult to sort out.

Without meaning to be inflamatory as I am geniunely interested and admit I might live in a bubble. I get to some extent wanting independence and the need to be a separate country and not wanting to be ruled by a tory government you did not vote for and I realise that Margaret Thatcher did a lot of damage but what is unequal now? From a naive perspective you have a better deal on education (free Univeristy) better housing buying system better house prices. Feel free to tell me I am being a naive Londoner but I just dont get some of the anger towards the english

Sorry, I was at YES rallies and they were certainly NOT about causing trouble.

There is no anger towards the English!!!!!! It is about Westminster, not "the English" for goodness sake.

Scotland did not vote for the Torys, that is the problem. Why should we be subjected to a government we didn't vote for?

As for free education/ prescriptions etc, they are devolved to the Scottish parliament and come from our overall budget, therefore we don't spend as much on other things. We voted for a government who had these things in their policy (SNP).

First off I never said the YES rallies were causing trouble, I was saying that rallies in general can attract people who are simply wanting to cause trouble and attend to do so.

I understand the oart about it being devolved my point is that in many ways outside of having a Government they did not vote for Scotland sounds a better place to live than London, this Government has screwed over a lot of people and what comes across is that somehow Scotland have been more than England and I dont personally think that is the case.

I also feel that sometimes its not just Westminster I have seen comments on this thread and on facebook that make me feel like that (and I am not including you) relating to London and the South East as if Westminster somehow favours us and really it doesn't.

I think selfishly though it partly cos we dont want to be stuck with a Conservative Government either.

I guess part of the problem though with things like the NHS is that Scotland could run an NHS quite happily. We cant so much the sheer number of people we have puts a strain on it so much that it cant cope, I mean they are predicting 2 million more people are going to come to London in the next 15 years so I agree that the issues that affect us are not going to be the same but that does not amount to favourtism.

Sorry I didn't mean to be short with you, i'm a bit emotional just now- please excuse me!

I think you're right, many people do seem to think that the parliament favours South East/ London. I think that a federal system would be very beneficial for the U.K and would stop all the tensions/ bad feeling... well here's hoping anyway.

Our health service is suffering too. Our imminent problems with an ageing population are pretty scarey to be honest, and it's only set to get worse. Scotland needs immigrants to stay afloat and the thought of UKIP getting any kind of power is terrifying! Even the Torys have a tough stance on immigrants. I don't know what we're going to do!

 

[Missnurse]

Those who voted yes wanted independence to make scotland a fairer place to live with a government they voted for. Also even though the nhs is devolved to Scottish government and free tuition westminster still controls how much we get back out of the purse to spend on these things so if the cuts continue from westminster we get less money therefore less to spend on public service and tuition also we would have hopefully been better protected from nhs privatisation if the Scottish government had got complete control. Those are some of the reasons (and mine for voting yes) nothing to do with hatred of English.

Also there was a few items set out in the White paper such as rising wages so that wages were in line with the cost of living and more free hours childcare from a younger age allowing parents to return to work earlier if they wished.

 

[JessyG]

Peaceful rallies, are you kidding me! Anyway fact is the MAJORITY of scotland wanted to stay united. It is done now lets move forward. Yes they may not fulfil their promises but do you honestly believe Salmond wouldnt break his too?! Come on.

See this entire statement is what is wrong with politics and why the YES vote was so high. We should not be sitting back and excepting and even expecting our leaders to break promises they make. Especially not on an issue as important as this. They "vowed" in front of everyone that we would get new powers in a certain timescale. If they don't hold these promises there will be trouble. People voted against the independence of their country because of these promises.

And there is nothing wrong with a peaceful rally- we live in a democracy with freedom of speech. People gathering to show their support for something is a good thing.

Of course we should expect our leaders to fulfil the promises they make but I for one am not naive enough to believe that everything will happen just as they say it will. Life isnt like that. They are duty bound now so before we write them off lets give them a chance to do what they say its been 48 hrs for goodness sake.

There are EXTREME unionists and EXTREME nationalists. Neither side have done Scotland any favours with their actions but thankfully they are a small minority. Please don't delude yourself into believing that the yes campaign was entirely 'peaceful'. I say this as someone who witnessed some horrid abuse in Edinburgh from yes supporters.

 

[Natsku]

Saw this linked on my facebook(the post by Jordan JD just below the first bit was what I was linked to) - I think its a good aim, Scotland, both Yes and No, needs to reunite if they hope to achieve more devolution.

 

[makemeamammy]

Peaceful rallies, are you kidding me! Anyway fact is the MAJORITY of scotland wanted to stay united. It is done now lets move forward. Yes they may not fulfil their promises but do you honestly believe Salmond wouldnt break his too?! Come on.

See this entire statement is what is wrong with politics and why the YES vote was so high. We should not be sitting back and excepting and even expecting our leaders to break promises they make. Especially not on an issue as important as this. They "vowed" in front of everyone that we would get new powers in a certain timescale. If they don't hold these promises there will be trouble. People voted against the independence of their country because of these promises.

And there is nothing wrong with a peaceful rally- we live in a democracy with freedom of speech. People gathering to show their support for something is a good thing.

Of course we should expect our leaders to fulfil the promises they make but I for one am not naive enough to believe that everything will happen just as they say it will. Life isnt like that. They are duty bound now so before we write them off lets give them a chance to do what they say its been 48 hrs for goodness sake.

There are EXTREME unionists and EXTREME nationalists. Neither side have done Scotland any favours with their actions but thankfully they are a small minority. Please don't delude yourself into believing that the yes campaign was entirely 'peaceful'. I say this as someone who witnessed some horrid abuse in Edinburgh from yes supporters.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to come across like I'm attacking you but you're whole tone here is very patronising. 'Im not naive enough to believe everything will happen' - does that mean people who expect the politicians to stick to their promises are naive? Don't 'delude' yourself...there is nothing deluded about noting that the rallies held by the yes campaign before the referendum WERE peaceful and whilst I don't doubt that there are idiots on both sides and that there would have been abuse on both sides during the campaign, the yes side have never ever been responsible for the scale of hatred and bigotry that went on in George square last night.

Even when you say 'it's been 48 hours for goodness sakes' - this is very patronising! She was referring to the fact that Gordon brown promised things on a certain timescale which is what would have attracted a lot of undecided voters to vote no as the timescale for extra powers was quicker than it would have taken under independence. Better together vowed that the day after a no vote, the timetable for further powers would be published as a motion before the uk parliament and that all parties would support it. No such motion has been published and ed Miliband has already distanced himself from it. Whatever the reasons, that is going back on a very clear promise which would have influenced a lot of voters into voting no!

 

[Abz1982]

It will be interesting to see how many Emigration searches have been done from Scotland since Friday morning!

For one we are seriously looking into joining family in NZ! The country is fecked. There is NOTHING that can be done. No amount of petitioning or rallying etc. We wont get anymore than what was to come with the Scotland Act. And we will have the violent faction of the No supporters/loyalists expecting us to bow down and lick their boots.

I know a number of NO supporters who genuinely wish they had voted yes and are sad and dismayed at what has happened and scared, more scared than they were for Independence.......And among there are an MD and a few business managers...

 

[Pearls18]

Ok I'm really sorry for coming across as unsympathetic or patronising but I really think some comments have been a little dramatic and it's getting a bit frustrating to read, you are part of the UK not the Democratic Republic of Congo, it's starting to sound a bit ungrateful if I'm honest for the country we are incredibly lucky to recide in, that's not to say we shouldn't always strive for the best we can get, we should always make politicians work for us, but let's keep this in perspective. This country is not fecked, there are flaws, there could be improvements, perhaps one day localised improvements will be felt better for more by more devolution or full independence but the truth is the yes campaigners didn't have enough answers, if there was evidiemce it was going to be as amazing as you all thought it would be, or if staying in the UK was inevitably as catastrophic as some of you are making out it would have been a yes vote, overwhelmingly. But tbh the result reflects the murkiness, we just don't know which is better for Scotland right now, every person voted because they thought their vote was for the best for them and their children with the current evidence as confusing as that can be, it was all done with good intentions, so why don't we call just learn from this experience (of which there are many positives, and some negatives) and learn to make the best of what we've got for now, and one day if it is still so wanted a referendum will be held again as it has done before, and maybe then there will be a bit more conviction to prove what you believe to be right.

 

[makemeamammy]

Ok I'm really sorry for coming across as unsympathetic or patronising but I really think some comments have been a little dramatic and it's getting a bit frustrating to read, you are part of the UK not the Democratic Republic of Congo, it's starting to sound a bit ungrateful if I'm honest for the country we are incredibly lucky to recide in, that's not to say we shouldn't always strive for the best we can get, we should always make politicians work for us, but let's keep this in perspective. This country is not fecked, there are flaws, there could be improvements, perhaps one day localised improvements will be felt better for more by more devolution or full independence but the truth is the yes campaigners didn't have enough answers, if there was evidiemce it was going to be as amazing as you all thought it would be, or if staying in the UK was inevitably as catastrophic as some of you are making out it would have been a yes vote, overwhelmingly. But tbh the result reflects the murkiness, we just don't know which is better for Scotland right now, every person voted because they thought their vote was for the best for them and their children with the current evidence as confusing as that can be, it was all done with good intentions, so why don't we call just learn from this experience (of which there are many positives, and some negatives) and learn to make the best of what we've got for now, and one day if it is still so wanted a referendum will be held again as it has done before, and maybe then there will be a bit more conviction to prove what you believe to be right.

I'm not grateful!! I'm not in the least bit grateful to be living in the uk and neither are nearly half of the population of Scotland! What you must remember here is that emotions are still very raw and what some of us have strived for and prayed for for more than two years has just failed and it will most likely be a very very long time before we get that opportunity again. Sorry but it is not for someone of any other country to tell almost half the population of a country to 'be grateful' for what they've got two days after losing the option to govern themselves! Scottish people on both sides of the debate feel very very strongly about this issue which is why perhaps some comments are coming across dramatically. If you don't like it, nobody is forcing you to read it! you are right, we are not living in a third world country and yet parts of our country have a life expectancy of 53 years old (that is less than the democratic republic of Congo btw) that to me is absolutely scandalous in the western world! Those areas of a Scotland were the ones who overwhelmingly voted yes because they believed that Scottish rule offered them the best chance of a better future...I'm sure these people are absolutely devastated and have every right to be!

 

[mum22ttc#3]

Ok I'm really sorry for coming across as unsympathetic or patronising but I really think some comments have been a little dramatic and it's getting a bit frustrating to read, you are part of the UK not the Democratic Republic of Congo, it's starting to sound a bit ungrateful if I'm honest for the country we are incredibly lucky to recide in, that's not to say we shouldn't always strive for the best we can get, we should always make politicians work for us, but let's keep this in perspective. This country is not fecked, there are flaws, there could be improvements, perhaps one day localised improvements will be felt better for more by more devolution or full independence but the truth is the yes campaigners didn't have enough answers, if there was evidiemce it was going to be as amazing as you all thought it would be, or if staying in the UK was inevitably as catastrophic as some of you are making out it would have been a yes vote, overwhelmingly. But tbh the result reflects the murkiness, we just don't know which is better for Scotland right now, every person voted because they thought their vote was for the best for them and their children with the current evidence as confusing as that can be, it was all done with good intentions, so why don't we call just learn from this experience (of which there are many positives, and some negatives) and learn to make the best of what we've got for now, and one day if it is still so wanted a referendum will be held again as it has done before, and maybe then there will be a bit more conviction to prove what you believe to be right.

I haven't replied on this thread yet but have been following this and the whole debate quite closly. Couldn't agree with this more

 

[JessyG]

I am with you MarineWAG. my post was not meant to be patronising i apologise if it has come across that way. However I do feel like people are starting to overeact.

 

[JessyG]

Peaceful rallies, are you kidding me! Anyway fact is the MAJORITY of scotland wanted to stay united. It is done now lets move forward. Yes they may not fulfil their promises but do you honestly believe Salmond wouldnt break his too?! Come on.

See this entire statement is what is wrong with politics and why the YES vote was so high. We should not be sitting back and excepting and even expecting our leaders to break promises they make. Especially not on an issue as important as this. They "vowed" in front of everyone that we would get new powers in a certain timescale. If they don't hold these promises there will be trouble. People voted against the independence of their country because of these promises.

And there is nothing wrong with a peaceful rally- we live in a democracy with freedom of speech. People gathering to show their support for something is a good thing.

Of course we should expect our leaders to fulfil the promises they make but I for one am not naive enough to believe that everything will happen just as they say it will. Life isnt like that. They are duty bound now so before we write them off lets give them a chance to do what they say its been 48 hrs for goodness sake.

There are EXTREME unionists and EXTREME nationalists. Neither side have done Scotland any favours with their actions but thankfully they are a small minority. Please don't delude yourself into believing that the yes campaign was entirely 'peaceful'. I say this as someone who witnessed some horrid abuse in Edinburgh from yes supporters.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to come across like I'm attacking you but you're whole tone here is very patronising. 'Im not naive enough to believe everything will happen' - does that mean people who expect the politicians to stick to their promises are naive? Don't 'delude' yourself...there is nothing deluded about noting that the rallies held by the yes campaign before the referendum WERE peaceful and whilst I don't doubt that there are idiots on both sides and that there would have been abuse on both sides during the campaign, the yes side have never ever been responsible for the scale of hatred and bigotry that went on in George square last night.

Even when you say 'it's been 48 hours for goodness sakes' - this is very patronising! She was referring to the fact that Gordon brown promised things on a certain timescale which is what would have attracted a lot of undecided voters to vote no as the timescale for extra powers was quicker than it would have taken under independence. Better together vowed that the day after a no vote, the timetable for further powers would be published as a motion before the uk parliament and that all parties would support it. No such motion has been published and ed Miliband has already distanced himself from it. Whatever the reasons, that is going back on a very clear promise which would have influenced a lot of voters into voting no!

And being told my view is 'what is wrong with politics' is not patronising.

Yes they should uphold their promises. From what i read they gave themselves until the end of October to provide a timeline hence the 'its only been 48 hrs'. GB still stands by his pledge lets see what happens.


Anyway I sign myself out.

 

[Tasha]

I know that this is highly emotive for some of you who live in Scotland and that's understandable, but I can also see why some people are a) saying you're over reacting and b) are getting defensive. The over-reacting thing is because you would think if it is soooooo bad or the future is going to be you would certainly think a huge percentage of the population would feel that way and it would of been a yes by a long way.

And the defensiveness is because for weeks/months we've listened to why the uk is awful to be part of, why people hate England (and yes it has been hates England not just Westminster). It is bound to eventually feel personal if the person reading loves being part of the UK, loves England. As much as many of you have admitted that you are proud to be Scottish, there are many English people who are just as patriotic and in the recent debates I've seen it written time after time (even in this thread occasionally) that as we don't live there we can't get it. The things I've seen have often been rude and dismissive about English people's views (as well as the country) and eventually that's bound to have an effect.

 

[Debi]

Peaceful rallies, are you kidding me! Anyway fact is the MAJORITY of scotland wanted to stay united. It is done now lets move forward. Yes they may not fulfil their promises but do you honestly believe Salmond wouldnt break his too?! Come on.

See this entire statement is what is wrong with politics and why the YES vote was so high. We should not be sitting back and excepting and even expecting our leaders to break promises they make. Especially not on an issue as important as this. They "vowed" in front of everyone that we would get new powers in a certain timescale. If they don't hold these promises there will be trouble. People voted against the independence of their country because of these promises.

And there is nothing wrong with a peaceful rally- we live in a democracy with freedom of speech. People gathering to show their support for something is a good thing.

Of course we should expect our leaders to fulfil the promises they make but I for one am not naive enough to believe that everything will happen just as they say it will. Life isnt like that. They are duty bound now so before we write them off lets give them a chance to do what they say its been 48 hrs for goodness sake.

There are EXTREME unionists and EXTREME nationalists. Neither side have done Scotland any favours with their actions but thankfully they are a small minority. Please don't delude yourself into believing that the yes campaign was entirely 'peaceful'. I say this as someone who witnessed some horrid abuse in Edinburgh from yes supporters.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to come across like I'm attacking you but you're whole tone here is very patronising. 'Im not naive enough to believe everything will happen' - does that mean people who expect the politicians to stick to their promises are naive? Don't 'delude' yourself...there is nothing deluded about noting that the rallies held by the yes campaign before the referendum WERE peaceful and whilst I don't doubt that there are idiots on both sides and that there would have been abuse on both sides during the campaign, the yes side have never ever been responsible for the scale of hatred and bigotry that went on in George square last night.

Even when you say 'it's been 48 hours for goodness sakes' - this is very patronising! She was referring to the fact that Gordon brown promised things on a certain timescale which is what would have attracted a lot of undecided voters to vote no as the timescale for extra powers was quicker than it would have taken under independence. Better together vowed that the day after a no vote, the timetable for further powers would be published as a motion before the uk parliament and that all parties would support it. No such motion has been published and ed Miliband has already distanced himself from it. Whatever the reasons, that is going back on a very clear promise which would have influenced a lot of voters into voting no!

And being told my view is 'what is wrong with politics' is not patronising.

Yes they should uphold their promises. From what i read they gave themselves until the end of October to provide a timeline hence the 'its only been 48 hrs'. GB still stands by his pledge lets see what happens.


Anyway I sign myself out.

Sorry but I think the "peaceful rallies are you kidding me?!" comment started the patronising tone here!

And a bill was supposed to be put to the commons on the 19th as was plastered all over the front page of the Daily Record. Of course people are going to be up in arms about this, especially if they voted NO because of the timetable.

I think, and no offense is meant here ladies, that it must be very difficult to understand if you don't live in Scotland and were a YES voter. Once you've opened to your eyes to the failings of a Scotland within the UK, it's very difficult to see past that. YES people feel utterly powerless now- we had the chance to run our own country and to make it a better place for everyone. Now we are once again a population of 5 million within a population of 65 million, with little to no voice- and the failings of the WM politicians to stick to their first promise to us no less than 24 hours after the vote just cements that.

More people didn't see it because they were blinded by fear and the mainstream media. Pensioners were told by Better Together that they wouldn't receive their pensions after a YES vote, which is beyond ridiculous. We were held to ransom by huge corporate companies telling us that they would leave our country/ put up prices if we had the audacity to vote to run our own bloody country. The fact that we got 45% of the vote is beyond a miracle.

 

[Midnight_Fairy]

Well said Tasha.

 

[Tasha]

Debi, I feel that you're post comes across as just as dismissive and patronising even to your fellow Scots who happened to vote no. It comes across as if you're saying that they couldn't possibly have their eyes open to the current failings, that the majority only voted out of fear and so on. Maybe some of them are fully aware of the failings but maybe it wasn't fear they just believe Scotland is better in the union (at least for now). I'm not saying that's how you feel but it certainly does read like that.

 

[x Michelle x]

Exactly Tasha! I don't like to be told why I voted no. I don't lay claims that Yes voters were brainwashed or swept along on a wave of false hope and patriotic-ness (can't think of a word!)
Please understand that people have their own reasons for why they voted and don't need to constantly hear that they were 'wrong'

 

[makemeamammy]

Right this is just getting silly now! The bottom line is this - 45% of Scotland are devastated at the outcome because they no longer have the opportunity to govern themselves for a generation. I'm very sure that if England suddenly handed over their government to, for example, France, quite a number of you from south of the border would be very upset and probably not appreciate being told that you are 'over reacting' simply by stating so. Absolutely nobody on this thread (on either side) has been overly disrespectful or started a riot or anything so let's get a bit of perspective. Are we overreacting simply by saying we are devastated? I feel like I've already explained why that is a perfectly legitimate way to feel under the circumstances.

I am not dismissing the decision of 55% of the population but the figures are now in and show that the vast majority of under 55s voted yes and it was the older generation who voted no overwhelmingly so I think it is perfectly valid to suggest that the fear of losing pensions played a role in this. It is well known that those of an older generation are more resistant to change than those of a younger generation. Had this vote been held by only under 55s, which I'm not suggesting for a minute it should have been, the result would have been very very different!

And JessyG I'm sorry but you are factually incorrect when you say the timeline was the end of October, it was the 19th of Spetember! As Debi says, that is what was plastered across the front of every newspaper and what contributed to a lot of undecideds ultimately voting no as the timeline was so soon it seemed like the better option to get everything sorted as quickly as possible.

 

[Pearls18]

I imagine with the elderly (having watched some interviews as well) the fact their nursing care is paid for in Scotland as well shows the elderly have it quite safe right now so I think it is understandable they would be more fearful of change, add to the mix older people are probably generally more risk averse so while I'm not denying other factors it makes sense yes votes were mainly in the young, it was why they pushed for 16-17 year olds to vote as they knew they would be more likely to be yes.

And I'm sorry but to compare Scotland remaining as part of the UK to England suddenly losing it's power to France is ridiculous.

And Tasha put so well into words why Debi your posts have been frustrating at times because you do come across as completely dismissive of why some people, whether Scottish or not, thought no was the best outcome.