Anyone had FET and advice on cell loss

[chocci]

Hi girls, I am a bit devastated today, had a FET embryo transfer and from 4 top quality embryos that we had frozen only 2 made it, the otehr 2 lost over 50% cells and have gone from a (day 3) 8 cells to 3 cells and 7 cells to 2 cells. I am not holding out much hope that i will get BFP, but was wondering if any of you out there who had FET got a postitive from embryos with such rubbish cell loss???

 

[punch]

hi chocci...

i'm an embryologist at an IVF clinic.

i know it's heartbreaking to hear it when embryos don't make it through the freeze/thaw, but it is extremely common. everyone loses embryos to freezing/thawing, it doesn't mean anything about the overall quality of the embryos. it's a difficult process for them to go through! the only bummer here is that they're gone now.

you had 2 transfered? what is your age and diagnosis?

if 2 of them survived the freeze/thaw and have been transferred, you have had good luck! the embryos that didn't survive have nothing to do with the 2 that didn't... they're certainly not 'rubbish' if they've made it this far.

best of luck!

 

[chocci]

Hi hun

Thanks for taking the time to reply it means a lot especially cos you know what your talking about being an embryologist and i really appreciate your comments

I am 33, my hubby 34 and has bad sperm problems, motility, morpology, count, you name it. I am ok so far. They recomended ICSi and we did OK 10 eggs, fertilisation was only 50% but those 5 embryos were apparently really good, of them 1 was a grade 4/4, for my clinic thats the best - no fragmentation and nice even 8 cells on day 3. The other 4 were grade 3/4 but still said really good just that they were only 7 cells so slight fragmentation.

We wanted 2 embies putting back this time due to last times faliure and this is what happened before freeze to thawing our day 3 embies:

8 cells - went to 3 cells
7 cells - went to 2 cells
7 cells - didnt make it
7 cells - didnt make it

So all in all from having what they described as 4 perfect looking embryos, only 2 made it and they lost too many cells and are pretty rubbish really i thought. I asked why this has happened and the embryologist did say that the freeze thaw process is very harsh and that only around 65% of embryos make it. She also said to be honest that some womens embryos just dont like the freeze/thaw process, they dont know why really, but that the chances are if i have to go through this process again we will probably find we have a similar result on thawing????? Is that true or could it be just bad luck this time???

I was told that they have seen pregnancies with those type of embryos but that our chances are slim say around 10% I hear some clinics dont even put back embies that have lost more than 50% of their cells as they think they wont survive!!! So I wonder why they bothered with mine???

I am truley fed up, feel like i have had my BFN already. The only positive i can take is when i asked the doctor how likely they are to start multiplying again, he said well you could think of it this way, after the thaw they lost a lot of cells BUT there are still 2 and 3 cells left and it could just be the case that the thaw has killed off the weaker cells leaving only the stronger cells remaining that could go on to multiply. I understand that logic but am worried they would be 2 far behind to catch up and that they are basically 1/2 day old embies in a 5 day old womb and therefore even if they grow they wont be able to implant?? Am i making any sense with that??

I am not very hopeful but just want to know the real odds, when i understand things i can get my head around things, but as my clinic is national health service here in UK they are always a bit rushed to be fair so i never get chance to ask many questions.

I really appreciate your feed back and opinion of what our chances are and how it all works as I would really like to be able to understand everything.

X

 

[punch]

hm... well our clinic goes by the same criteria: loss of more than 50% of cells means it's not transferred.

however, if that's all you had then i can see why they transferred them. during that stage all the cells are the same, so losing cells isn't that big of a deal, no important information is lost. if they are able to divide, then there is the possibility that they will be viable. the oocyte has a pool of 'maternal stores' which are proteins and codes that the developing embryo will need but that it is unable to make yet. losing more than half your cells means you've lost some important supplies, but it's still possible.

i'm sorry you had a bad go with the freezing. your clinic is right, some people's embryos just DON'T do well with freeze/thaw and that could be a problem again.

obviously, your best chance is with a fresh transfer. are you considering doing another cycle? it usually takes 2 to 3 cycles to get a woman pregnant through IVF. sounds awful, but true.

don't lose hope on your little embryos! they're back inside their mum now... anything can happen.

10% IS low, but 10% isn't 0%!

i'm always happy to answer embryo questions... send me a message any time.

 

[chocci]

Thanks for taking the time to answer hun, you have given me a bit more of an idea of what is going on I dont obviously hold out much hope but like you say you never know.

Yeah thinking of going for another fresh try but i think it maybe Jan next year now since we will now have to go private and pay and the waiting list is 3 months.

We seemed to do ok with our fresh cycle so much so that they only wanted us to put back 1 embryo, I am kicking myself now, I really wanted to have 2 put back that time but they said it was really good quality and seemed so positive.

I have a couple of other questions if you would be kind enough to answer? Do they know why some embryos dont like freezing? Have they got any clues yet or is it a mystery? Does it suggest that the embryos even though they looked good quality arent?

I think before our next cycle we will ask for sperm DNA fragmentation testing since they never did this and my hubbies sperm is not good, i think he only has 4% morp. I think before we spend the 4k on anotehr cycle we need to ask for other tests first perhaps.

Thanks for explaining things, its easier to get my head around things if i know whats going on

 

[maz]

I'm sorry to hear things didn't go as well as you would have hoped Chocci. Fingers crossed you're in that 10% - you just never know your luck...

How fantastic to have an embryologist floating round our forum ... are you open to anybody sending you questions? I wouldn't want to take advantage or annoy you, but if you don't mind answering the slightly more scientific IVF questions, then I'd certainly be really grateful.

Sorry for invading your thread chocci.

 

[punch]

i'd be more than happy to answer questions!

most patients can't think of their questions when i'm in the room... so i know it's hard to get answers.

as far as 'healthy' embryos go... it's so impossible to tell. we look at them as they develop and keep track of what they're doing every day, and then the day of the transfer we pick which one we like best... literally. there are some criteria, like how many cells (not too few, not too many), how much fragmentation, how regular are the blastomere sizes; but in general we just pick the best LOOkING one that's been on track the whole time.

the problem is that there are so many factors that you can't see. you certainly can't see what's going on with the genetics or the proteins or that sort of thing by looking down in a microscope and that's a problem.

all we can do is wait until we have better techniques to judge. however, we've been tracking embryos for a very long time and we've seen TONS... so we do have a handle on which are growing the best. that's how we ultimately decide who goes back.

i don't know how to advise you as to what to do about your husband's sperm... all you need is one good sperm and one good oocyte... if you go digging you may want to be prepared to think about using donor sperm and that's a hard decision.

it's an expensive process, so it's hard to make decisions. i can't tell you what to do, as you know... it's really personal. but if your embryos were growing well then you might just need another try.

 

[Mrs G]

Hey lovely chocci, just stopping by with . Also, punch, you are a good woman to know!! Hang around here with us and you'll be bombared with questions!!

xx

 

[chocci]

Thankyou Punch, advice very much appreciated xx

 

[chocci]

BY the way punch, i want to wish you look with a happy and healthy pregancy xx

 

[punch]

thank you, chocci... i'm pretty nervous as it stands. i miscarried the last two times.

all i can do is hope, right?

 

[chocci]

Oh hun, Sorry to hear that Yeah all we both can do is hope.

I try to put thinks into perspective sometimes when i am feeling down and shitty, i try to think how lucky i am in many other ways compared to a lot of the people in the world. Although when the worst things happen to us there is always someone suffering more......though it never seems like it at the time.

I have a friend who had a still born baby about a year ago....at 8 1/2 months, she was on her own at the hospital when she found out, here hubby could not be there, breaks my heart to think of all the pain she must have gone through.... I can't even begin to imagine how she felt then, and how she still feels, but when i feel fed up I remember her and think, yup, thinks could be worse.

I really hope your pregancy continues hun and and sprinkling some healthy baby dust right now!!! Have you got a journal, will keep my eyes on your journey and pray its a happy one XXXX