breastfed babies result in better behaved children?

[bky]

I was going to comment on the original topic, but it seems to have wandered into something that gets my hackles up. So before I go there...
Anyhow, my opinion on the original topic is that it's likely the potentially 'extra' skin to skin and physical contact that breastfeeding mothers may give their babies that gives this result. So not something that is magically inherent in breastmilk and certainly something that any mother (or father even) can give her child. Summary: Hugs are good! Hug your babies.

As to the tangent, I'm not really surprised to see that attitude, seeing as that someone has come into my journal to try and argue with me.
People who had issues with BF shouldn't condemn other women, they should be helping them. Judgement and snide remarks get us nowhere, but help and support makes it better.

I wish that 98% figure would die a horribly firey death. I really do. It's based on the breastfeeding initiation (not the 3 week or 6 week or 6 month) rates for Norway and Sweden. Which basically means they intended to BF and were physically able to put the baby to the breast. So at 6 weeks their exclusive rates of BF are around 85% and at introduction of solids are around 70%. They have a totally different support system than most of the people on this board, so no fair comparing ourselves to them, ok? Ok. At least know where the statistics you are using to make people try and feel bad are coming from and get it right.

In reality recent studies show that up to 5% or so of women produce insufficient milk and a potential another 10%+ of babies have some tongue, lip or swallowing issue that makes breastfeeding painful and difficult if not just inefficient (which results in weight loss). Why wasn't this an issue in bygone days (which people must imagine that women and babies were happily breastfeeding and the infant mortality rate of the under 2's wasn't shockingly high and everyone pooped unicorns and jellybeans)? Because A) people used to know what a tongue or lip tie looked like and midwives or birth attendants would cut it at birth with their fingernails, and B) a lot of the low milk hormonal issues now present in our population were likely controlled by diet and reduction in exposure to plastics and environmental toxins.
To assume that it's the mother's fault for not being able to breastfeed is awful and cruel.

And you know what, if BF isn't right for you, it isn't right for you. I can certainly think of circumstances where BF wouldn't be right for me and my future babies, but I hope I never get into any of them because I like BF.

Also as an ahem 'real' scientist (ok that's a bit of a joke) I don't really like social research studies. I don't like the lack of controls and how there could be sooo many other factors giving the result seen. I know it's hard with humans as your experimental animal, but arrrgh. They make me want to pull my hair out. Just IMO.

 

[moomin_troll]

bky i cant believe someone has come into ur space being ur journal and tried to start a argument with u! who ever that is are just disgusting and very childish. obviously this person lacks a life let alone tacked.

breastfeeding mothers or women who try and bf have it hard enough in the real world so ud think the support on here would be better

 

[Cloberella]

I wish that 98% figure would die a horribly firey death. I really do. It's based on the breastfeeding initiation (not the 3 week or 6 week or 6 month) rates for Norway and Sweden. Which basically means they intended to BF and were physically able to put the baby to the breast. So at 6 weeks their exclusive rates of BF are around 85% and at introduction of solids are around 70%. They have a totally different support system than most of the people on this board, so no fair comparing ourselves to them, ok? Ok. At least know where the statistics you are using to make people try and feel bad are coming from and get it right.

In reality recent studies show that up to 5% or so of women produce insufficient milk and a potential another 10%+ of babies have some tongue, lip or swallowing issue that makes breastfeeding painful and difficult if not just inefficient (which results in weight loss). Why wasn't this an issue in bygone days (which people must imagine that women and babies were happily breastfeeding and the infant mortality rate of the under 2's wasn't shockingly high and everyone pooped unicorns and jellybeans)? Because A) people used to know what a tongue or lip tie looked like and midwives or birth attendants would cut it at birth with their fingernails, and B) a lot of the low milk hormonal issues now present in our population were likely controlled by diet and reduction in exposure to plastics and environmental toxins.

That's really interesting information bky, thanks for that

 

[Midnight_Fairy]

I was going to comment on the original topic, but it seems to have wandered into something that gets my hackles up. So before I go there...
Anyhow, my opinion on the original topic is that it's likely the potentially 'extra' skin to skin and physical contact that breastfeeding mothers may give their babies that gives this result. So not something that is magically inherent in breastmilk and certainly something that any mother (or father even) can give her child. Summary: Hugs are good! Hug your babies.

As to the tangent, I'm not really surprised to see that attitude, seeing as that someone has come into my journal to try and argue with me.
People who had issues with BF shouldn't condemn other women, they should be helping them. Judgement and snide remarks get us nowhere, but help and support makes it better.

I wish that 98% figure would die a horribly firey death. I really do. It's based on the breastfeeding initiation (not the 3 week or 6 week or 6 month) rates for Norway and Sweden. Which basically means they intended to BF and were physically able to put the baby to the breast. So at 6 weeks their exclusive rates of BF are around 85% and at introduction of solids are around 70%. They have a totally different support system than most of the people on this board, so no fair comparing ourselves to them, ok? Ok. At least know where the statistics you are using to make people try and feel bad are coming from and get it right.

In reality recent studies show that up to 5% or so of women produce insufficient milk and a potential another 10%+ of babies have some tongue, lip or swallowing issue that makes breastfeeding painful and difficult if not just inefficient (which results in weight loss). Why wasn't this an issue in bygone days (which people must imagine that women and babies were happily breastfeeding and the infant mortality rate of the under 2's wasn't shockingly high and everyone pooped unicorns and jellybeans)? Because A) people used to know what a tongue or lip tie looked like and midwives or birth attendants would cut it at birth with their fingernails, and B) a lot of the low milk hormonal issues now present in our population were likely controlled by diet and reduction in exposure to plastics and environmental toxins.
To assume that it's the mother's fault for not being able to breastfeed is awful and cruel.

And you know what, if BF isn't right for you, it isn't right for you. I can certainly think of circumstances where BF wouldn't be right for me and my future babies, but I hope I never get into any of them because I like BF.

Also as an ahem 'real' scientist (ok that's a bit of a joke) I don't really like social research studies. I don't like the lack of controls and how there could be sooo many other factors giving the result seen. I know it's hard with humans as your experimental animal, but arrrgh. They make me want to pull my hair out. Just IMO.

Great reply.

 

[crossroads]

I was going to comment on the original topic, but it seems to have wandered into something that gets my hackles up. So before I go there...
Anyhow, my opinion on the original topic is that it's likely the potentially 'extra' skin to skin and physical contact that breastfeeding mothers may give their babies that gives this result. So not something that is magically inherent in breastmilk and certainly something that any mother (or father even) can give her child. Summary: Hugs are good! Hug your babies.

As to the tangent, I'm not really surprised to see that attitude, seeing as that someone has come into my journal to try and argue with me.
People who had issues with BF shouldn't condemn other women, they should be helping them. Judgement and snide remarks get us nowhere, but help and support makes it better.

I wish that 98% figure would die a horribly firey death. I really do. It's based on the breastfeeding initiation (not the 3 week or 6 week or 6 month) rates for Norway and Sweden. Which basically means they intended to BF and were physically able to put the baby to the breast. So at 6 weeks their exclusive rates of BF are around 85% and at introduction of solids are around 70%. They have a totally different support system than most of the people on this board, so no fair comparing ourselves to them, ok? Ok. At least know where the statistics you are using to make people try and feel bad are coming from and get it right.

In reality recent studies show that up to 5% or so of women produce insufficient milk and a potential another 10%+ of babies have some tongue, lip or swallowing issue that makes breastfeeding painful and difficult if not just inefficient (which results in weight loss). Why wasn't this an issue in bygone days (which people must imagine that women and babies were happily breastfeeding and the infant mortality rate of the under 2's wasn't shockingly high and everyone pooped unicorns and jellybeans)? Because A) people used to know what a tongue or lip tie looked like and midwives or birth attendants would cut it at birth with their fingernails, and B) a lot of the low milk hormonal issues now present in our population were likely controlled by diet and reduction in exposure to plastics and environmental toxins.
To assume that it's the mother's fault for not being able to breastfeed is awful and cruel.

And you know what, if BF isn't right for you, it isn't right for you. I can certainly think of circumstances where BF wouldn't be right for me and my future babies, but I hope I never get into any of them because I like BF.

Also as an ahem 'real' scientist (ok that's a bit of a joke) I don't really like social research studies. I don't like the lack of controls and how there could be sooo many other factors giving the result seen. I know it's hard with humans as your experimental animal, but arrrgh. They make me want to pull my hair out. Just IMO.

So the decline after initiation (in this country) is down to lack of support. That is obvious. I've often written about how shocking the NHS support is - breastfeeding counsellors, GPs, health visitors - not only do they know little about BF they actually dish out dodgy advice that sabotages the mothers efforts. I was told my milk was drying up because the breastpump couldn't get much out! I was ordered by an irate 'breastfeeding counsellor' to pump every 3 hours day and night inbetween feeding my newborn. I would set my alarm for 12, 3am, 6am and sit alone in the dark in the night pumping and crying, worried for my baby, worried for myself. I was on the brink of giving up. But I came online (B&B no less!) and posted about my situation and got amazing advice. The internet is a Godsend. And most people have access to the internet yes? Even those who don't have direct access in their house, local libraries have free access. There's no excuse.

A few weeks later I got a severe case of thrush which travelled between my breasts and my baby (also ended on her bottom). It was extremelly painful. So what did I do? Internet! There are SO MANY breastfeeding groups on the internet. Facebook has an excellent one (Dispelling Breastfeeding Myths).

Guys, why all the excuses?

The Sweden figures show what a mothers body is capable of.

 

[moomin_troll]

so ud expect a scared new mother who didnt have the internet to take her newborn baby to a library for advice. thats one of the most stupid things i have ever heard in my life.

my reasons for not being able to bf my son are my business and isnt a excuse thank you very much.
u actualy are a very rude person

 

[Tiff]

So the decline after initiation (in this country) is down to lack of support. That is obvious. I've often written about how shocking the NHS support is - breastfeeding counsellors, GPs, health visitors - not only do they know little about BF they actually dish out dodgy advice that sabotages the mothers efforts. I was told my milk was drying up because the breastpump couldn't get much out! I was ordered by an irate 'breastfeeding counsellor' to pump every 3 hours day and night inbetween feeding my newborn. I would set my alarm for 12, 3am, 6am and sit alone in the dark in the night pumping and crying, worried for my baby, worried for myself. I was on the brink of giving up. But I came online (B&B no less!) and posted about my situation and got amazing advice. The internet is a Godsend. And most people have access to the internet yes? Even those who don't have direct access in their house, local libraries have free access. There's no excuse.

A few weeks later I got a severe case of thrush which travelled between my breasts and my baby (also ended on her bottom). It was extremelly painful. So what did I do? Internet! There are SO MANY breastfeeding groups on the internet. Facebook has an excellent one (Dispelling Breastfeeding Myths).

Guys, why all the excuses?

The Sweden figures show what a mothers body is capable of.

I find it incredibly ironic that here you are, posting about how important support is when you are incapable of being supportive yourself. With how much you've gone through you could be an amazing person of support yet you choose to badger and belittle.

So what's your honest angle? Bully people until they see it your way? I realize how that sounds, but I don't mean it as a snipe against you. Clearly you don't give support on this thread, so what exactly are you hoping to achieve here?

 

[Midnight_Fairy]

Its not even about being able to BF though, some people simply do not want to. They should not have to explain themselves to anyone nor feel like they didn't try their best!

 

[Kalah]

Its not even about being able to BF though, some people simply do not want to. They should not have to explain themselves to anyone nor feel like they didn't try their best!

That is an excellent point that often gets looked over. I mean, fair enough some women tried their best and just couldn't cope with BF and switched to formula. But then there are women who simply were never interested in BF at all. The ones who tried get made to feel bad enough for not trying hard enough, I can't imagine how it is for the women who didn't want to try at all.

Before I had my own baby I didn't know anything about BF, never knew anyone who did it, never planned to do it myself. I lived with my cousin for a few months 2 years ago and she had 3 kids, the youngest being 7 months old. Since I had zero knowledge of babies I didn't pass any judgement on the things she did. That baby recently turned 2 and he is a happy, healthy, thriving little boy! Looking back though she did all the things people label "bad" (some of which actually was bad though looking back) fed him formula, didn't sterilize anything, used tap water, didn't do tummy time or any floor time at all, mostly just had him strapped in a carseat in the living room or in a swing chair, didn't wean him until he was almost 1, let him sleep in a travel cot filled with toys, didn't change him often enough, didn't bathe him at all during the few months I was there, would have co-slept but her 2 and 3 year old girls still slept in bed with her. If someone would have known all that while he was a baby they would have thought it was all just horrible, but he's fine.

Sorry that kind of went OT, my point was just sometimes us mommies can take things too seriously. I don't know why, maybe because as we learn it we just get a lot more curious as to what other people do with their own babies.

 

[indy and lara]

Can I just reiterate that SOME BF mums may act superior/ criticise others/ look down their noses at others but they are the minority. The rest of us are passionate about BF and the benefits it can offer both mum and baby, want to help and support those who want it and don't judge others' decisions. Stereotypes sting on both sides of this debate.

 

[aragornlover8]

Can I just reiterate that SOME BF mums may act superior/ criticise others/ look down their noses at others but they are the minority. The rest of us are passionate about BF and the benefits it can offer both mum and baby, want to help and support those who want it and don't judge others' decisions. Stereotypes sting on both sides of this debate.

I appreciate the help that a lot of you BF mothers give. It really is a shame that there are some baddies on both sides.

 

[summer rain]

So the decline after initiation (in this country) is down to lack of support. That is obvious. I've often written about how shocking the NHS support is - breastfeeding counsellors, GPs, health visitors - not only do they know little about BF they actually dish out dodgy advice that sabotages the mothers efforts. I was told my milk was drying up because the breastpump couldn't get much out! I was ordered by an irate 'breastfeeding counsellor' to pump every 3 hours day and night inbetween feeding my newborn. I would set my alarm for 12, 3am, 6am and sit alone in the dark in the night pumping and crying, worried for my baby, worried for myself. I was on the brink of giving up. But I came online (B&B no less!) and posted about my situation and got amazing advice. The internet is a Godsend. And most people have access to the internet yes? Even those who don't have direct access in their house, local libraries have free access. There's no excuse.

A few weeks later I got a severe case of thrush which travelled between my breasts and my baby (also ended on her bottom). It was extremelly painful. So what did I do? Internet! There are SO MANY breastfeeding groups on the internet. Facebook has an excellent one (Dispelling Breastfeeding Myths).

Guys, why all the excuses?

The Sweden figures show what a mothers body is capable of.

I agree with the bolded part of your statement only; the support is crap however not everyone has internet access and even if they do being told something is gospel truth by a health professional who you look up to; often its hard to know what or who to believe.

 

[venusrockstar]

I am disgusted with some of the responses in this thread. I am pro-breastfeeding and very passionate about it as well. I have been BF'ing my daughter for about 10 1/2 months with no signs of stopping, but some of you ladies on here are just horrible. I have never felt like I was superior or better than anyone because of BF'ing. I struggled for the first 2 months and was ready to give up. I had a low milk supply, but never knew that for a very long time. I cried a lot and felt like I wasn't "woman enough." Some of you who got along easy may not have any clue how hard it can be, especially if you get depressed and have no support. I was thankful to have my husband to cheer me on, but not everyone has that. I probably would have given up if it wasn't for him.

BF'ing is a CHOICE, the same as FF is a CHOICE. As adults we can make our own decisions as to how we want to raise our child. People need to respect other people's decisions and grow the hell up. I feel like I am being painted with a tainted brush because of some of the opinions on here just because I do BF. Not all BF'ing momma's are narrowminded, rude and inconsiderate of other people's feelings.

At the end of the day, who really gives a shit about how your baby is fed? As long as they are healthy, thriving and happy, who cares? To be honest, it's really nobody's business as to what or how you feed your baby. Yes, there are benefits to BF'ing, there has been a lot of research to prove this....but that does not make you better or more superior to anyone else.

Some of you need to get down off your high horses and stop being so childish and ignorant. It's not very becoming of you.

 

[Midnight_Fairy]

Its not even about being able to BF though, some people simply do not want to. They should not have to explain themselves to anyone nor feel like they didn't try their best!

That is an excellent point that often gets looked over. I mean, fair enough some women tried their best and just couldn't cope with BF and switched to formula. But then there are women who simply were never interested in BF at all. The ones who tried get made to feel bad enough for not trying hard enough, I can't imagine how it is for the women who didn't want to try at all.

Before I had my own baby I didn't know anything about BF, never knew anyone who did it, never planned to do it myself. I lived with my cousin for a few months 2 years ago and she had 3 kids, the youngest being 7 months old. Since I had zero knowledge of babies I didn't pass any judgement on the things she did. That baby recently turned 2 and he is a happy, healthy, thriving little boy! Looking back though she did all the things people label "bad" (some of which actually was bad though looking back) fed him formula, didn't sterilize anything, used tap water, didn't do tummy time or any floor time at all, mostly just had him strapped in a carseat in the living room or in a swing chair, didn't wean him until he was almost 1, let him sleep in a travel cot filled with toys, didn't change him often enough, didn't bathe him at all during the few months I was there, would have co-slept but her 2 and 3 year old girls still slept in bed with her. If someone would have known all that while he was a baby they would have thought it was all just horrible, but he's fine.

Sorry that kind of went OT, my point was just sometimes us mommies can take things too seriously. I don't know why, maybe because as we learn it we just get a lot more curious as to what other people do with their own babies.

I didn't even have any intention of BF my daughter. I fed her for the first 2 days and decided to bottle feed. I BF my son for 3mths. I dont have to explain why how or what made me make them choices, I just did lol. I dont think I never gave them the best start, I have no regrets, I did what I wanted to do as a mum. I definitely do not feel inferior to a woman that has breastfed for 2 yrs :s

 

[Tiff]

Can I just reiterate that SOME BF mums may act superior/ criticise others/ look down their noses at others but they are the minority. The rest of us are passionate about BF and the benefits it can offer both mum and baby, want to help and support those who want it and don't judge others' decisions. Stereotypes sting on both sides of this debate.

I agree, wholeheartedly.

I am disgusted with some of the responses in this thread. I am pro-breastfeeding and very passionate about it as well. I have been BF'ing my daughter for about 10 1/2 months with no signs of stopping, but some of you ladies on here are just horrible. I have never felt like I was superior or better than anyone because of BF'ing. I struggled for the first 2 months and was ready to give up. I had a low milk supply, but never knew that for a very long time. I cried a lot and felt like I wasn't "woman enough." Some of you who got along easy may not have any clue how hard it can be, especially if you get depressed and have no support. I was thankful to have my husband to cheer me on, but not everyone has that. I probably would have given up if it wasn't for him.

BF'ing is a CHOICE, the same as FF is a CHOICE. As adults we can make our own decisions as to how we want to raise our child. People need to respect other people's decisions and grow the hell up. I feel like I am being painted with a tainted brush because of some of the opinions on here just because I do BF. Not all BF'ing momma's are narrowminded, rude and inconsiderate of other people's feelings.

At the end of the day, who really gives a shit about how your baby is fed? As long as they are healthy, thriving and happy, who cares? To be honest, it's really nobody's business as to what or how you feed your baby. Yes, there are benefits to BF'ing, there has been a lot of research to prove this....but that does not make you better or more superior to anyone else.

Some of you need to get down off your high horses and stop being so childish and ignorant. It's not very becoming of you.

Sorry for all the crap you went through. And yes, not all BF moms are like that, just as all FF moms aren't the same either. Kinda ties into what Indy was saying.

 

[Kalah]

Its not even about being able to BF though, some people simply do not want to. They should not have to explain themselves to anyone nor feel like they didn't try their best!

That is an excellent point that often gets looked over. I mean, fair enough some women tried their best and just couldn't cope with BF and switched to formula. But then there are women who simply were never interested in BF at all. The ones who tried get made to feel bad enough for not trying hard enough, I can't imagine how it is for the women who didn't want to try at all.

Before I had my own baby I didn't know anything about BF, never knew anyone who did it, never planned to do it myself. I lived with my cousin for a few months 2 years ago and she had 3 kids, the youngest being 7 months old. Since I had zero knowledge of babies I didn't pass any judgement on the things she did. That baby recently turned 2 and he is a happy, healthy, thriving little boy! Looking back though she did all the things people label "bad" (some of which actually was bad though looking back) fed him formula, didn't sterilize anything, used tap water, didn't do tummy time or any floor time at all, mostly just had him strapped in a carseat in the living room or in a swing chair, didn't wean him until he was almost 1, let him sleep in a travel cot filled with toys, didn't change him often enough, didn't bathe him at all during the few months I was there, would have co-slept but her 2 and 3 year old girls still slept in bed with her. If someone would have known all that while he was a baby they would have thought it was all just horrible, but he's fine.

Sorry that kind of went OT, my point was just sometimes us mommies can take things too seriously. I don't know why, maybe because as we learn it we just get a lot more curious as to what other people do with their own babies.

I didn't even have any intention of BF my daughter. I fed her for the first 2 days and decided to bottle feed. I BF my son for 3mths. I dont have to explain why how or what made me make them choices, I just did lol. I dont think I never gave them the best start, I have no regrets, I did what I wanted to do as a mum. I definitely do not feel inferior to a woman that has breastfed for 2 yrs :s

It would be nice if more moms felt like that I know how frustrating it is to have to justify something all the time. Like any time I have to mention that my husband isn't our daughters biological father, I hate having to include that it's because the real guy kidnapped and raped me. But if I don't people tend to think all sorts of things, which I don't always mind. But I notice most women who FF feel the same need to defend themselves and I just feel bad for that. No one has to justify why they use formula if they don't want to. Same as no one asks me why I BF.

 

[sapphire1]

Wow. I was just having a quick read of this, and can't quite believe what a horrible attitude crossroads has - is she for real? I never in a million years intended to FF my LO, and am totally pro breastfeeding. The fact of the matter is, if it wasn't for formula my baby may very well have starved to death. She was readmitted to hospital for losing 15% of her birthweight after 4 days. From then on I had to give her formula top ups as I wasn't producing enough milk to sustain her. She was totally uninterested in latching, despite help from breastfeeding counsellors, midwives, doctors etc and the use of nipple shields. I had to pump 3 hourly day and night, and still couldn't produce enough milk without having to give her formula. While all this was going on, she had undiagnosed silent reflux, and was screaming any time she was awake. After 6 weeks, and nearly getting PND, I simply couldn't take anymore and decided to switch. This should have been simple, but turns out she can't tolerate formula. So I had a baby who point blank refused to breastfeed, and couldn't tolerate formula either. Thankfully now, she is on a hypoallergenic amino acid based formula, and seems to be doing well on it. I just can't abide those people who believe that women don't 'try hard enough' to BF, and no doubt crossroads will think I didn't try hard enough. It's taken me a long time to get over my guilt for not BFing, I don't need people like her ramming it down my throat. Every single real life BFing mum I have met has been lovely, and not a single one has displayed such a superiority complex. I intend to BF if I have another child, and if I do crack it next time, I hope that I can give some proper support to those that need it. I know it's a bit off the OT, but I needed to vent...

 

[crossroads]

I really must unsubscribe to this thread but I can't help myself

I find it incredibly ironic that here you are, posting about how important support is when you are incapable of being supportive yourself. With how much you've gone through you could be an amazing person of support yet you choose to badger and belittle.

So what's your honest angle?

My honest angle is that I dish out as much support as possible to mums who are trying to establish breastfeeding, or who have established breastfeeding but have come into difficulty. But after the mum has switched to formula, what can I do? Unless she wishes to try to relactate, then the breastfeeding relationship is over.

 

[crossroads]

I agree with the bolded part of your statement only; the support is crap however not everyone has internet access and even if they do being told something is gospel truth by a health professional who you look up to; often its hard to know what or who to believe.

Health Professionals really anger me I had no idea how incompetent they are untill I became a mum. Now I've completely lost faith in most of them. They need more training in breastfeeding - fast. It needs to be made a priority. Why breastfeeding support is woefully down on the priority list but money is spent on alcoholics and drug addicts I'll never know. *sigh*

I am disgusted with some of the responses in this thread.

It would be 'worse' on MN and BC (I haven't said the full names for fear of spamming). B&B is the most pro-FF forum I know of.

 

[Cloberella]

It would be 'worse' on MN and BC (I haven't said the full names for fear of spamming). B&B is the most pro-FF forum I know of.

I have to say I find this to be true, I find myself tiptoeing round breastfeeding on this forum much more than I do on others. (admittedly not so much on this thread) I wonder if that's because most of the members here are British, and our rates are so low due to the awful lack of support?