Caging animals

[BabyMamma93]

i have 3 dogs, they have a cage, when left open they choose to lay there, so they sleep in there on a night, we dont force them to, they choose to. they are fed, watered and exercised every day so im hardly a cruel owner am i? i was actually told by a dog behaviourist that cages are good for dogs, teaches them boundaries, let them have their own space when they want it, and thats exactly what my dogs use it for.
In regards to hamsters, rabbits etc.. do pet rabbits really know any different? i had a rabbit, he had a 2 storey hutch, was let out in a run once a day, when in the run he would sit in one corner, when in the cage he would run up and down the stairs having fun, IMO thats not cruelty?

 

[staralfur]

Bringing dogs/indoor cats into the discussion is interesting, because yes, technically you could view a house as a cage. My dogs go for walks every day and we have a large yard that they play in, but it's fenced and they're confined to our property unless we bring them out. I'm not sure how many people would saying having dogs or an indoor cat is cruel. Is it just because smaller animals have smaller cages? We used to live in a one bedroom apartment and the amount of room my dog had to roam around was probably about comparable to how much space my tiny little hedgehog has in his decent sized cage.

 

[JASMAK]

As ridiculous as this sounds i have never heard of parrots living in the wild of England? Am i mad?

Provided the animal is let out for a long period of time every day, fed, kept clean and with fresh water i don't think its any crueler than a human living in a house myself

More like a closet... where you can only walk a few steps. Paris are very smart too. .. is not like a hamster in a cage. ..

What parrot cages have you seen? Our one that we had when I was growing up was taller than the average person, with tonnes of room and climbing space - I thought that was the norm? Parrot cages should only really be used for sleeping, eating and pooing anyway - if you don't have the time to have them out for most of day, you really shouldn't get one as a pet.

Yes. .. parrot cages are pretty much the same around the world. When I went travelling just recently we went to a bird sanctuary (birds come and go as they please) and during our tour we were told some birds and Parrots are as smart as a 7 year old child! So. .. could you tell your child to sit in a closet all day. .. with a toy, water and food of course. .. and let the child out a few times a day when convenient for you? Birds aren't meant for cages or God wouldn't have given them wings. Don't even get me started in the clipping of wings either! !!!

 

[bumpy_j]

As ridiculous as this sounds i have never heard of parrots living in the wild of England? Am i mad?

Provided the animal is let out for a long period of time every day, fed, kept clean and with fresh water i don't think its any crueler than a human living in a house myself

More like a closet... where you can only walk a few steps. Paris are very smart too. .. is not like a hamster in a cage. ..

What parrot cages have you seen? Our one that we had when I was growing up was taller than the average person, with tonnes of room and climbing space - I thought that was the norm? Parrot cages should only really be used for sleeping, eating and pooing anyway - if you don't have the time to have them out for most of day, you really shouldn't get one as a pet.

Yes. .. parrot cages are pretty much the same around the world. When I went travelling just recently we went to a bird sanctuary (birds come and go as they please) and during our tour we were told some birds and Parrots are as smart as a 7 year old child! So. .. could you tell your child to sit in a closet all day. .. with a toy, water and food of course. .. and let the child out a few times a day when convenient for you? Birds aren't meant for cages or God wouldn't have given them wings. Don't even get me started in the clipping of wings either! !!!

Well then, I don't get how the size of a closet thing at all :S a shoebox would be those sort of dimensions. Unless you mean something enormous, like a macaw.

And a good parrot owner would ensure that they spent a good part of the day out of the cage, certainly not out for five or ten minutes when it's convenient - wings are generally clipped if need be, but they should still be able to fly somewhat - ours used to be able to fly from one end of the room to the other and to various pieces of furniture (his wings were only clipped later on in life mind you). Pretty much any pet that you can get is meant to have the world as their oyster. They're also a species that have a whole host of natural predators.

I found this blog and it talks about how a parrot tends to have a territorial base - so if it's not a nest, than a cage is an adequate substitute:

https://brucebyfield.com/2008/12/30/11-myths-about-parrots-and-their-care/

 

[JASMAK]

I just don't think it's justified. That is of course, JMO. U am not a 'bird expert' by any means. .. but yes I most certainly think caging an animal that should fly is cruel. A closet here is quite large, btw... mine fits a dresser with room on the side plus shelves. But I still think that is easy too small. Heard the saying 'free as a bird'?

 

[Tiff]

Totally random but while driving across town the other day I saw a couple waiting at a bus stop and they had a parrot with them. On a leash mind you, but it was just hanging out with them outside while they waited for transit.

I think when you get down to the nitty gritty of it all, keeping any animal out of its natural habitat is mean and cruel. But that being said, I have a cat, dog and a bunny. I crate-trained my dog when he was a puppy, but he was never put in there when he was bad. It became his "safe" spot and if I had friends over who had kids, he'd actually go in there and that was an "off limits" space to the kids. When he was in there, no one is allowed to bother him. Maybe its cruel, but I really do support crate training. He's much older now so we don't crate him anymore. His bed has become his "crate" of sorts and its the same rule, if he's on his bed then he's to be left alone.

Our bunny was a rescue from the OSPCA. Its super sad, his previous owners just moved out of an apartment and left him there for the landlord to find. Bunnies actually bond with either people or other bunnies, or stuffed animals (apparently) and Jj was bonded to his previous owners. He's now in shock or something to that extent and doesn't trust people. He refuses to come out of his cage on his own (even with his door left open). We used to force him to come out but he'd get so stressed out and frantic to get back into his cage that we stopped. His door is open, but in the 5 years we've had him, not ONCE has he ever ventured out on his own.

He's attached to a ball and a stuffed rabbit that the OSPCA gave to us when we rescued him, and he'll play with that and do all the happy bunny noises (aside from Binkies) but yeah... so sad. Maybe we're cruel for keeping him in a cage, but hand on heart he does NOT want to be out of it.

And I dunno, maybe we're the lesser of two evils with rescuing him knowing he had special needs? But he's got food, water, fresh greens and timothy hay (he didn't get fresh greens or timothy hay at the shelter) and he's warm and safe. To me it'd seem more cruel to leave him at the shelter with no one to talk to him or give him what he needs.

 

[bumpy_j]

I just don't think it's justified. That is of course, JMO. U am not a 'bird expert' by any means. .. but yes I most certainly think caging an animal that should fly is cruel. A closet here is quite large, btw... mine fits a dresser with room on the side plus shelves. But I still think that is easy too small. Heard the saying 'free as a bird'?

I'm no expert either, but have just weirdly grown up around a lot of people owning parrots lol. I know what you mean, but so many birds are in captivity now that we wouldn't really be able to put them back into wild cycle IYKWIM? (Which is why it's VERY important to NEVER buy a wild parrot - only ones that have been bred to be domesticated, there is a horrific trade ongoing with the sale of wild birds).

Haha wow, I'm slightly jealous about those dimensions

 

[JASMAK]

I just don't think it's justified. That is of course, JMO. U am not a 'bird expert' by any means. .. but yes I most certainly think caging an animal that should fly is cruel. A closet here is quite large, btw... mine fits a dresser with room on the side plus shelves. But I still think that is easy too small. Heard the saying 'free as a bird'?

I'm no expert either, but have just weirdly grown up around a lot of people owning parrots lol. I know what you mean, but so many birds are in captivity now that we wouldn't really be able to put them back into wild cycle IYKWIM? (Which is why it's VERY important to NEVER buy a wild parrot - only ones that have been bred to be domesticated, there is a horrific trade ongoing with the sale of wild birds).

Haha wow, I'm slightly jealous about those dimensions

Haha...I have two. .. one in each side of my 'hallway' to the master bathroom

 

[BabyMamma93]

Totally random but while driving across town the other day I saw a couple waiting at a bus stop and they had a parrot with them. On a leash mind you, but it was just hanging out with them outside while they waited for transit.

I think when you get down to the nitty gritty of it all, keeping any animal out of its natural habitat is mean and cruel. But that being said, I have a cat, dog and a bunny. I crate-trained my dog when he was a puppy, but he was never put in there when he was bad. It became his "safe" spot and if I had friends over who had kids, he'd actually go in there and that was an "off limits" space to the kids. When he was in there, no one is allowed to bother him. Maybe its cruel, but I really do support crate training. He's much older now so we don't crate him anymore. His bed has become his "crate" of sorts and its the same rule, if he's on his bed then he's to be left alone.

that first bit actually made me laugh LOL

in regards to the dogs in cage, i totally agree, we used a cage at first to train my puppies, we used a cage when my bitch had a litter, more so to keep them safe, and they stay in a cage when we are out, as they can sometimes chew things, for their own safety they are in cages, this is what a behaviourist told me. there have been incidents where dogs have chewed say a cushion, the fluff has got stuck in their throat causing them to choke and die. same with electricals except the dog got electrocuted, it is much safer for a dog to be in a cage when un supervised, i hated the idea before i got one, but when my dogs almost escaped out of our kitchen door in my previous house, enough was enough, we got a cage, they dont bark, yelp or cry, they sleep sleep and sleep. no cruelty involved..

 

[AJCart]

This is an odd concept to me I'm afraid. A slippery slope too. So birds can't be kept in adequately sized cages and let out for long stretches everyday? Rabbits and guinea pigs shouldn't be kept in adequately sized hutches with plenty of room to run and play, lots of fresh hay and water, and preferably let out for a while every day?

So by that logic, dogs should not be kept in yards, cats should not be inside. I have horses. If they were "wild" horses they would roam over hundreds of kilometres. Is it cruel that they are kept in paddocks then? Paddocks large enough for them to buck and run and roll, but certainly not hundreds of kilometres. Should I just set them free to be picked off by predators, hit by cars, etc?

These are not wild animals we are talking about. I can tell by the enthused greetings I get from each of them that my dogs, cat, horses, rabbits, guinea pigs and canaries are certainly not unhappy in there various versions of "cages." And as domesticated animals they are certainly far safer there.

 

[BabyMamma93]

This is an odd concept to me I'm afraid. A slippery slope too. So birds can't be kept in adequately sized cages and let out for long stretches everyday? Rabbits and guinea pigs shouldn't be kept in adequately sized hutches with plenty of room to run and play, lots of fresh hay and water, and preferably let out for a while every day?

So by that logic, dogs should not be kept in yards, cats should not be inside. I have horses. If they were "wild" horses they would roam over hundreds of kilometres. Is it cruel that they are kept in paddocks then? Paddocks large enough for them to buck and run and roll, but certainly not hundreds of kilometres. Should I just set them free to be picked off by predators, hit by cars, etc?

These are not wild animals we are talking about. I can tell by the enthused greetings I get from each of them that my dogs, cat, horses, rabbits, guinea pigs and canaries are certainly not unhappy in there various versions of "cages." And as domesticated animals they are certainly far safer there.

THIS!!! i know rabbits, horses, dogs etc, are originally wild animals, but my dogs were bred from a pet dog, which was also bred from a pet dog so on so on. they are pets not wind animals, my dogs dont look unhappy nor do they act in anyway that they shouldnt. theres obviously an exeption when people leave dogs in cages for endless amount of hours, same with rabbits etc. but pet dogs, pet rabbits etc. are not wild animals, they are PETS! seems people get mixed up with the two

 

[Bex84]

I agree with above. Domestic animals have been bread for generations for certain characteristics, people who breed animals are not breeding to make them have good survival instincts. My cats hate the outdoors and don't have good hunt instinct which is shown by the amount of times one of mine has very clumsily and loudly pounced at the window and smaked his head when has seen a bird while you can see the bird having a good laugh. Mine are also fussy and will eat only one type of food and only drink water out of there fresh water fountain bowl, they do not have good wild instincts but I tell you what they are two very content cats

 

[dgirllamius]

My mum has a parrot who obviously has a cage but he is let out all the time. He's not even shut in at night when it's sleeping time. He can fly if he wishes (though he doesn't fly much now as he injured his wing and it's never been right since) and he has plenty of room to stretch. He seems happy.

My brother on the other hand is a feckless idiot. He has a Alsatian which is 80% of the time cooped up in a little room at the back of the house. She barely gets any walks and he expects my mum to do everything for him regarding the dog. My mum doesn't spent much time there anymore as she has a new fella so the dog is pretty much neglected. I've said countless amount of times to my mum she would be better off with someone who can give her the time and attention she needs but my mum thinks she's better off there (wtf???) - only because she has a nasty streak in her due to my brothers lack of training. It wouldn't take long for someone to get accustomed to her. Now that is cruel, I really wish he would just find a new home for her because it's just not fair.

 

[sparkle_1979]

I don't think you can compare a dog to a rabbit in a cage, it's not the same...IMO I think anyone who compares is just trying to justify keeping a caged animal...unless a dog is shut in a cage for hrs a day of course

 

[Aidan's Mummy]

Surely if they are bred in captivity they know no different? So to let them go would be cruel too as they don't know how to survive in the wild? x

 

[Tiff]

I don't think you can compare a dog to a rabbit in a cage, it's not the same...IMO I think anyone who compares is just trying to justify keeping a caged animal...unless a dog is shut in a cage for hrs a day of course

I don't think anyone on here has disputed that dogs and rabbits are the same. I can only speak from experience, and keeping in mind our rabbit is very shocked from his previous owners abandoning him... but there really isn't a comparison.

My dog is so much more aware than my rabbit. Maybe my rabbit is as well? But he doesn't want us near him, doesn't want us to touch him and is really only happy when we give him his greens. Heartbreaking.

Not trying to pick apart your post of course, I quoted it as it gave me food for thought.

Maybe because of how it is with our bunny, but I'd be far more angered at a dog being kept in a cage for hours on end than the rabbit. Mainly because the rabbit can go to the bathroom in the cage. Jj (our bunny) has a certain area of the cage that is his bathroom. Dogs generally aren't supposed to be going in their crates/cages, would make me sad that they didn't have access to get outside.

Take what I say with a grain of salt, we're not dealing with a bunny who is happy and likes to be around people (he was bred in captivity I imagine, he's a Holland Lop which is not native to our region).

 

[steph.]

What I don't like about rodents and birds being kept as pets, is that they rarely have a full life. They are often kept alone, when they naturally enjoy the company of their own species. No matter how much human attention they get, how big their cages are, their lives won't be complete. These animals are not like dogs or cats who crave human attention, they would be happier living their own lives. I have had a hamster, a rabbit, rats, and budgies and I would never buy these animals again. Of course we can't free the ones that are bred for us to keep as pets as they would die, but if people stop buying these animals then they will stop being bred.

 

[BabyMamma93]

i partly agree with the above, as cute and cuddly little bunnies are, i suppose you could say its cruel to have them as pets. IF you take it from the fact 'rabbits are/were/can be wild animals' but pet rabbits are not, they are pets and bred to be that..
i guess with a rabbit, guinnie pig (sp), hamster etc, you cant tell whether they are actually content like you can with dogs, so who really knows whether they are happy or not? least in a hutch or whatever they arent been hunted, killed and eaten like they are in the wild. we had our rabbit for 15 years before he sadly died, he wasnt one for being picked up, never was but yet he was socialised, does this mean he wasnt happy?
i wouldn't like to say i wouldn't ever have a rabbit again but i wouldn't like to say i would, who knows, anyway i guess im trying to say. we will never know how these animals/pets actually feel as a. they cant speak & b. we cant read their minds.. so it will stay exactly as it is.. just a debate lol

 

[Kate&Lucas]

This is an odd concept to me I'm afraid. A slippery slope too. So birds can't be kept in adequately sized cages and let out for long stretches everyday? Rabbits and guinea pigs shouldn't be kept in adequately sized hutches with plenty of room to run and play, lots of fresh hay and water, and preferably let out for a while every day?

So by that logic, dogs should not be kept in yards, cats should not be inside. I have horses. If they were "wild" horses they would roam over hundreds of kilometres. Is it cruel that they are kept in paddocks then? Paddocks large enough for them to buck and run and roll, but certainly not hundreds of kilometres. Should I just set them free to be picked off by predators, hit by cars, etc?

These are not wild animals we are talking about. I can tell by the enthused greetings I get from each of them that my dogs, cat, horses, rabbits, guinea pigs and canaries are certainly not unhappy in there various versions of "cages." And as domesticated animals they are certainly far safer there.

THIS!!! i know rabbits, horses, dogs etc, are originally wild animals, but my dogs were bred from a pet dog, which was also bred from a pet dog so on so on. they are pets not wind animals, my dogs dont look unhappy nor do they act in anyway that they shouldnt. theres obviously an exeption when people leave dogs in cages for endless amount of hours, same with rabbits etc. but pet dogs, pet rabbits etc. are not wild animals, they are PETS! seems people get mixed up with the two

From my point of view I just don't understand breeding pets in general.
I'm sure people have their reasons but to me (particularly caged animals), it appears people are paying for a living piece of furniture. I was brought up with pets and I thought the same as a child, it's never really made sense to me.

I'm sure it's different with dogs etc, I know people claim to gain a lot of comfort from pets. I just don't get it personally.

 

[Sarahkka]

I don't think species-appropriate uses of enclosures is cruel. Not in the least. In the wild, an animal goes exactly as far as it must to meet its basic needs of food/water/shelter. If those things are being provided and if the other behavioural needs are being met, then using crates/kennels/terrariums is fine.
Parrots are a trickier one, but not because keeping them in an aviary is cruel. Parrots need huge amounts of social stimulation or they start to get very stressed. Unfortunately, many people who love the idea of having a parrot do not understand how much work they are and this can lead to bad situations for the birds. They are one of the top most abandoned pets and the black market pet trade has been particularly devastating. That being said, I know many amazing bird owners who provide plenty of stimulus and meet their birds' needs with use of an aviary. I don't think the issue with parots is confinement.
It bears thinking about that "freedom" is a human construct and imposing our concept of this on an animal is not necessarily accurate or helpful to improving that animal's quality of life. It reminds me a bit of overhearing visitors at zoos saying things like "Oh, that lion must be miserable. It just lies there and it doesn't move. It must be so bored."
I've seen lions in the wild. Contrary to what wildlife documentaries suggest, they sleep about twenty hours a day on average. It is an energy conservation strategy and has nothing to do with happiness/boredom/etc. I think we often make the mistake of imposing our human concepts of free will and emotions onto animals and it doesn't necessairly improve things for the animals when we do that.
Interesting discussion, though!