Chinese Accupuncture

[Briss]

Blythe, I am very sorry you are going through this. I know how it feels but I also know that it will change so hang in there, it's been so tough and for so long but it must change.

I keep thinking about Jazzbird's story about the red shoes and being restless (see I told you words stay with me!) and I keep watching myself trying to find any sign of being restless. maybe I am I just do not see it. for example DH pointed out that I can never just sit there watching TV, I always do at least two other things at the same time - is this restlessness?

we visited our friends this weekend who recently moved out of London, it's amazing how much space you can get for 300K! I could not believe it but obviously there is a catch. while you are inside it's all very well but the area is not really nice and there are no cafes or decent shops and it takes over an hour to get to London, also you are tied to the train's timetable so cant be spontaneous, need to plan your journeys ahead. not sure i am ready to do that yet

 

[Briss]

Had my follow up acu appointment and we discussed the situation with my super short cycles and early ovulation over the last two months. Dr E agreed that it does not look very good and my eggs are ovulating too early so not great for natural TTC as eggs are more likely to be immature. he did not think my cycle was reacting to herbs but clearly the treatment is not working in a way it's supposed to so we are changing the strategy. I still have heat but it's a different kind of heat. my previous formula was concentrating on nourishing Yin, my new formula will be instead looking at cooling down Yuan. Going back to his example with tap water, It's too hot and out of balance. we previously were increasing cold water to create a balance between Yin and Yuan but now we are going to decrease hot water. I hope this makes sense, it does to me I think. Dr E seemed positive that TCM can work for me still so I am giving it another chance. Dr E thinks my ovaries are fine and respond to high FSH as they should so the problem is in my brain i.e for some reason it produces too much FSH. we previously were looking at pituitary gland and now we are going to treat hypothalamus.

My new formula: Jia Wei Xiao Yao San.

ingredients:

• Chai Hu hare’s ear root, thorowax root, bupleurum Radix Bupleuri
• Bo He Ye field mint, mentha Herba Menthae Haplocalycis
• Dang Gui tangkuei, Chinese angelica root Radix Angelicae Sinensis [supports pregnancy]
• Bai Shao Yao white peony root, peony Paeoniae Radix alba [supports pregnancy]
• Bai Zhu , bai shu ovate atractylodes, (white) atractylodes rhizome [supports pregnancy]
• Fu Ling sclerotium of tuckahoe, China root, hoelen, Indian bread Poria Cocos
• Zhi Gan Cao licorice root Radix Glycyrrhizae prep.
• Wei jiang
• Mu Dan Pi moutan root bark, tree peony root bark Cortex Moutan Radicis
• Shan Zhi Zi

from my brief reading Jia Wei Xiao Yao San opens liver qi and clears heat. it is used for stress, frustration, anger and PMS. While I do not have PMS as such I do have a lot of anger! basically emotional heat that's what we are trying to fix I think. https://eagleherbs.com/buy/bupleurum-and-peony-formula-jia-wei-xiao-yao-san-981

I am supposed to take from CD2 to ovulation

Jazzbird, I'd really appreciate your view on this, as always!

 

[kits]

That sounds pretty good Briss, I really like this approach. I'm no expert but it sounds like a good path to take especially with the anger and head heat. Everything you said made perfect sense.

I think this is a similar approach to what my ACU tried, her main focus has always been around destressing my head & obsessions. Maybe your hormones are a lot more balanced than you think and it's your stress that throws everything off?

I feel & hope this could be the start of a positive change for you Briss!! Praying for you hun.

 

[kits]

Not counting my chickens (technically there's only one) yet but I'm feeling better today. I had a little panic this morning because when I pee'd there was a metallic smell so I went to see the nurse who thinks it was just do to the blood, which had pretty much disappeared because the pee strip showed no signs of infection.

I had a ton of lovely ewcm that has made me feel so much better. I love ewcm, is that weird? Just makes me think things are doing well down there.

I did have a pretty erotic dream earlier, but I'm sure I pee'd since that. So surely it was ewcm. It was very stretchy & very clear.

 

[Jazzbird]

Hey Briss - so pleased you talked things through with dr E.

I'm not really an expert on herbs but what I think he is talking about is the balance of yin and yang.

Yin is cooling, moistening and resting energy; yang is warming, drying and active energy. We need a perfect balance to achieve good health. When we lack yin, we don't have enough cooling energy to keep the body thermostat stable and the body overheats. But this is because of a deficiency or a lack of something.

It is also possible to overheat the body due to excess - this can arise from too high consumption of alcohol, coffee, spicy food, being in a hot environment ... Or prolonged liver qi stagnation which turns into heat.

It sounds as though he has switched treatment from clearing heat & nourishing yin to clearing excess heat and clearing stagnation.

He sounds like a fantastic practitioner so I think it's worth giving the new treatment strategy a go.

 

[Irish_eyes]

Kits, EWCM sounds good and glad there's no more spotting.

Briss that strategy sounds good and your practitioner sounds great.

I am seriously thinking of giving it up. I am back on Saturday for a session and I am just wondering is it doing any good. I know I need to give it time in all fairness but can't really say the session are relaxing.

 

[Briss]

Irish_eyes, as you can see I have my doubts too, I am not sure how relaxing acu is supposed to be, there seem to be different opinions. my previous Chinese doc thought the pain during acu was a good sign that it was doing its thing so the sessions were never relaxing and I was looking forward to cupping and massage at the end (she did it for free with every session). my current acu is relaxing but whether its doing any good I cant say yet. I'd give it 3-6 months before making a decision.

if I am honest, while I am totally on-board with Dr E's new strategy there is a part of me that's afraid it can screw the only part of my cycle that is good – my perfect 14 day LP. mainly because it's Yuan that's responsible for this part and the strategy seem to be to tone it down. there is a risk that the diagnosis is not right and my Yuan is not in excess but I guess I can quickly see if there is any kind of pre AF spotting or shortening of my LP that'll be an indication that the strategy is not working. fingers crosses he's getting it right this time.

I just got this bootea, supposed to detox your digestive system. https://www.bootea.com/collections/all/products/14-day-teatox the list of ingredients in this tea looks fine so I may give it go from CD1, just need to make sure there is at least a few hours break between my Chinese herbs and this tea

 

[Irish_eyes]

I think it's just because I am so used to relaxing treatments.

I have also found this clinic in Belfast that does Maya massage and it is owned by a girl that had fertility problems herself. She seems to have a good success rate so I have sent her and email and she replied saying she is on holiday but get PA will be in contact with the cost of treatment. I will ask though what her success rate is with natural pregnancies though.

 

[Jazzbird]

Briss - I'm not sure what "Juan" is? If he means yang - the herbs he has prescribed have nothing to do with yang.

I think what he was saying was that you need the perfect balance of yin and yang for a good cycle. When there is not enough yin, there is a relative excess of yang. But you don't reduce yang to treat this, you merely tonify or strengthen yin - which is what he was doing.

But he has decided to switch strategy altogether by clearing excess heat and clearing stagnation - neither of which have anything to do with yang. And he's just doing that til mid cycle - so he's leaving your yang alone!!! And it is kidney yang that is responsible for the luteal phase of your cycle - this means your temp should jump at ov by a reasonable amount and stay elevated, increasing gradually as you reach the end of your cycle.

Incidentally there are many points which nourish kidney yin and yang at the same time and I'm sure he is using these. Please try to trust him - whilst chinese medicine is relatively simple in concept - it still takes nearly 4 years to train in acu and a further 2 for herbs. Patients can't possibly double check diagnosis and treatment without going through similar training. He has definitely identified that you have heat which is causing premature ovulation and he's trying to treat this - first he tried by clearing heat and nourishing yin. Now he's trying clearing heat and dispersing liver qi stagnation which creates heat in the long term.

As for acu being relaxing - it varies hugely between what they are treating you for and what kind of practitioner they are. If they are treating you for stress, then you probably will experience some form of relaxation possibly after the needles are removed. My mum is a total stress head and it was like the steam had been released when she leaves the treatment room. But that is her constitution.

Some practitioners use reiki or massage once needles are in. Some people find this relaxing - other practitioners are more clinical and just use acu.

Relaxation is not a measure of success for acu at all unless you have gone to them and specifically asked to feel more relaxed.

 

[Briss]

Jazzbird, you are right, I meant Yang, not Juan I was thinking about the discrepancy between the herbal formula and treating too much Yang, i just could not understand it. but that's how he explained it: he was previously nourishing Yin and now he wants to try to reduce Yang (the water taps example), maybe I misunderstood but I did ask him a question about reducing yang causing mess in my TWW to which he responded that if we are right this should not happen.

I am still waiting for my NHS funding to be approved and looks like I will be wasting the next cycle again waiting so i have time to try these new herbs.

I am really struggling with my age and having 1st child so late in life, if ever, it now looks more like 39-40 if we are lucky... would I have time for a second child? I cant even breathe properly when I think about it, i get something like a spasm in my lungs that's stress

AF is on her way so not in a good place right now.

 

[alison29]

CHi been at the beach all week just catching up.

 

[Jazzbird]

Hi Briss - there is a pattern of illness in chinese medicine called liver yang rising. This arises when liver yin has been deficient for a long time. The treatment is to subdue yang usually by dispersing liver qi (which is what your herbs do). But this has nothing to do with the kidney yang responsible for the second half of your cycle. It would not affect kidney yang. Perhaps this is what he means when he says he is reducing yang? It's difficult to say. You could ask him - what patterns are you treating? Explain you have a friend who is studying chinese medicine and is interested in your diagnosis. He might write it down for you.

I understand your panic re age and babies. Even though I'm so very lucky to have conceived age 37 I will be nearly 38 when she is born. Then you do the maths about when you might be able to have another etc. and you realise you are looking at 40+

Try to forget the 2nd and focus on baby 1. None of us know how it's all going to pan out. We might not enjoy being mothers or have horrendous births or have difficult children. So many factors will influence your decision to have another and it will change over time. You are still relatively young - there are many woman TTC #1 45+.

Thinking of the future so far in advance will add more stress and make you miserable. Try and focus on the first baby.

Hugs to you Briss - if there's anyone that deserves a break it's you. This has been such a long, arduous journey and it's not fair.

Xxx

 

[Briss]

Jazzbird, liver yang rising thing and your explanation makes a lot of sense. Dr E said my previous herbs work for 9 out of 10 women with high FSH. why am I always in the 1 category of unlucky ones rather than 9?? anyway, I am just trying to understand and keep track of what treatment I am doing so I know what works and what does not, I have no choice but to trust him and I do trust him that he is doing his best. I just keep wandering why what works for majority does not work for me. maybe we are missing something? he looked very confident in what he is doing and he said he knows exactly what herbs we need to do now so I am feeling positive about the next cycle.

On some level I am slightly relieved we are not staring stims right now cos I want to see at least one normal cycle and good FSH level before we proceed with IVF.

 

[kits]

I just wanted to point out that because I've been TTC for just under a year (I had the appointment booked to see gp regarding my fertility when I got my bfp) that I didn't have an official diagnosis. I don't know if my progesterone is too low or FSH numbers, etc.

The only information I've ever had is cycle length & for my last 2 cycles I just had temps.

So without this info my ACU could never treat anything too specific other than what I communicated. Therefore there was always a focus towards stress & relaxation because she just couldn't do anything else.

Briss, after you explained your fear of losing your perfect Lp I understand your uncertainty so much more. However, don't worry about your age. You're still OK!

Had a scan today, we have a heartbeat one more milestone out of the way, phew!


Loads of ladies

 

[Jazzbird]

Hi Briss - yes it must be frustrating being in that 10%. With Chinese medicine it is sometimes a process of elimination. Patients often come with multiple patterns of illness. Some patterns trigger other patterns and so it's often trial and error to find the core pattern that needs treating first.

I think the one thing that us 100% certain from all your practitioners is that you have heat which is triggering early ovulation. Where that heat comes from is really the root pattern. Is it yin deficiency? Is it yang rising out of long term deficiency? Is it prolonged liver Qi stagnation? Is it toxic heat?

These are all valid questions - and you probably have a mix of these things. Your pulses will provide some clues but it is your response to treatment that will ultimately determine your diagnosis.

It's not an exact science and I hope and pray you respond soon. You do have a great practitioner - so at least you know you have given it your best shot.

Xxx

 

[Jazzbird]

Kits - marvellous news I hope the sickness goes soon but also try to see it as a good sign. Xxx

Ps your acu would have many other things to go on - your cycle length, menstrual flow, colour, pain as well as other signs and symptoms in your general health. 2 of the most important signs are the pulses and tongue diagnosis. Pulses are incredibly intricate and tell an awful lot about a patients health and well being.

Fsh and other western markers only provide clues and are not fully translated yet into Chinese medical terminology. High fsh could indicate so many patterns of illness in Chinese medicine - the acu will have to piece all the info together and make a judgement call. Western medicine is very reductionist; Chinese medicine is much more systemic.

 

[Briss]

looks like I got my ovulation date wrong. I am actually pleased about it cos CD10 was really frustrating. My AF did not come yesterday when it was supposed to and is starting today at 16 DPO. I do not have 15 day LP, mine has always been13/14 days I know i got my peak on cd9 but sometimes I ovulate on the high after the second peak rather than on the second peak so it's more likely I ovulated on CD11 (rather than 10) despite my temp going up on cd 11. maybe my temp was just wrong on that day.

 

[Blythe]

Briss - i was looking at your charts last night [cos that is the sort of stuff i do on a sat night!!] and thought they all look pretty healthy to me. I think all this knowledge we have accrued about stats and levels etc etc has meant that whenever our cycle changes just a bit we go into a spin.

This month i ovulated 7 days later than usual and have been spotting since CD28 but got my period yesterday 7 days late....i was pleased to see it as i knew i was not pregnant. Bloody vitex!!

I went for my last acu with the new lady and there was a man there who did it instead. He did my pulse etc and the treatment [the massage was a delight...the hot weather, the strong rhythmic strokes etc etc] and at the end he said.....wait for it......'your kidney is weak....and i suggest a course of herbs and acupuncture....". After all this money and total commitment it would appear that nothing has changed or improved at all. I may go back to it but not for a while. However, my DH is now doing weekly acupuncture and powdered herbs everyday so we will see if that helps.

 

[Briss]

Blythe, so happy to hear from you! I missed you! I know what you mean re Saturday nights, I do the same thing and not just on Saturday night but virtually every night… I agree, in the scheme of things our charts look pretty good, I've seen so many seriously messed up charts and cycles of women who eventually got pregnant. just goes to show there is no rhyme or reason why it happens to some and not others.

ovulating 7 days later is huge – totally agree bloody vitex!

that massage sounds wonderful! I also treated myself to reflexology yesterday, somehow I always get cramps after reflexology and I figured it can help bring on AF and I was right, spotting turned into proper flow as soon as I left the reflexology place.

I know it's pretty sad but I could not stop laughing at that "weak kidney" comment. I guess it's just hard to treat cos you are working against time and natural decline but actually I think you have done amazingly well. 14 eggs is impressive and I am sure intensive acu/herbs played their role in this. I will be lucky to get 3-4. I am so impressed with your DH doing acu/herbs. mine is still complaining about being "poisoned" by vitamins …

I've started my new herbs today on CD2 so fingers crossed they are going to work for me. taste quite bad but not the worst ones I've tried. I read a few ladies have been taking them but most seem to take it in tww for MPS.

I also decided to do the detox tea thing for 2 weeks. the morning tea is just a mix of herbs and the evening tea supposed to detoxify your body and help it get rid of the toxins in the morning. Worked pretty well so far but then I am quite regular anyway.

no news from my clinic, I am getting really disappointed with them cos I've been waiting since January – 7 months! I think I am going to start talking to clinics in Germany. I am trying to understand how it's all going to work with doing it abroad. I may even do a natural cycle while we are waiting. I honestly feel we are wasting time TTC naturally. in 4 years I've never even had a chemical (naturally) so I doubt we even managed to create an embryo. I suspect DH's sperm just does not make it

yet another friend who recently gave birth invited us over to see their new baby. I obviously refused (politely and with appropriate excuse). I am not subjecting myself to the torture of seeing smb else' s baby. she knows I was TTC long before she considered having a baby and she keeps asking me about our news. I was pretty clear that nothing changed. yet she keeps asking directly how are our TTC efforts??? honestly, if I had a baby I would have probably mentioned it if I say I have no news that's pretty obvious what I mean by that. just annoys me that she expect me to spell it out, no we are still not pregnant. one more friend off my friends list ….

 

[Blythe]

Briss - so lovely to read your message

you are doing the right thing staying away from the newborn situation...its too much.

this crap has made me more sensitive to other women and i am proud to say i would NEVER be so insensitive.

Briss - i have been working with this woman [my old yoga teacher] doing Skype sessions. i have been feeling so very dark as IVF clinic told me no point in IUI as DH's sperm did not bind to eggs so I'm thinking no bloody chance of natural conception either and IVF is no longer justifiable. Anyhow, she is helping me find some more hope and change some of my thought processes. Its very basic stuff and we are working through exercises together. I speak with her via Skype [audio only] for 20/30 mins before work on a friday morning. Please look at her site...i will ask her how much she charges as my free ones are finished soon [i got some free ones with the yoga dvd i brought which is also great]. A lot of it is manifesting and i was doing that for a couple of weeks and i think that is what brought on my mini breakdown. I was manifesting my baby in the morning and evening and then doing the yoga and then doing these lines [something she recommended] and i just thought...this is BS and i cannot magic a baby out of thin air. so i told her all of this and she has really helped me start to view things differently. I was getting quite dark....although there are other things contributing to that too....

https://www.imsublime.co.uk


that aside....i hate waiting....all this waiting for the bloody IVF clinic to contact you. However, once they do hopefully it will then be a fairly swift process to get you in and started. I would certainly recommend you get all the info you need in the meantime so you are ready to go ahead with IVF in Germany. A back up plan is crucial for getting through this.