Chinese Accupuncture

[Briss]

Blythe, thank you! I am doing OK, not 100% back to normal yet, still getting dodgy pains and seating down/standing up is quite painful. Have been terribly busy at work, a colleague who was taking on my workload while I was ill had a nervous breakdown and gave her notice on Monday… I am very sad for her but also wonder how do I manage the same workload, and maybe I do not manage it at all I just cant see it? I was signing a deal on Friday, the deal I inherited from another colleague who went on maternity and ironically while I was working from home trying to get her deal done, with my ovaries kicked (quite literally), she gave birth to a healthy baby boy – how nice for her

I contacted Reprofit and was told there is no waiting list so we can start any time. I am hoping to do one cycle before the end of the year but obviously it depends on the condition of my ovaries – my poor things! Unfortunately they do not do IMSi which is a problem for us.

My Dh had a bit of a breakdown and went back to drinking beer for a couple of week, so we had to have another talk about donor sperm because I am just reaching the end of my patience threshold with all this. I feel so fragile that I prefer not to write about it or to even think about it and just carry on, I feel I will break if I start concentrating on my entire TTC journey, so I narrowed my mind on only one step forward and ignore everything else that happened or may/will happen. Dh was strongly against donor sperm but he did stop the beer nonsense.

I am due for a scan with UCLH and then one more scan at the private clinic so once this is done I will hopefully have more information on what happened and what I need to do to move forward.

My weight is still outrages, most of what I put on while stimming is still there and I am much heavier and flabbier than ever in my entire life… still it's coffee and pastry for breakfast for the time being. I am back on my vitamins. Cant decide when to visit Dr E. Probably after I had my follow up scan. I just do not feel getting acu at the moment will do me any good.

two of my friends got pregnant, one from her first IVF (twins) and another from her second IVF, both older than me but their ovaries responded so much better to stims they had 8-15 eggs each time. makes me feel depressed but one more argument that woman's age does not matter it's the ovaries' age that's important.

How are you? How's weight-loss going? I've been thinking about your IVf and it's still puzzling that none of the eggs fertilised, I am quite sure that it's not egg quality issue because you would still get a few fertilised but the embryo quality might have been not so great: none just means they must have been somehow compromised during the stim process. You responded so well to max stim that you may still get 6-7 eggs with low stims but the quality will be better – just something to think about.

 

[alison29]

Hi Briss,
Maybe dh is just being rebelious for a little while until you firm up plans for hte next treatment. It gets old feeling guilty about everything you enjoy, I know though that the consequences for bad choices linger on and on. I have been drinking more green tea and less coffee. My friend who is in middle of iui cycle has given up coffee and all sweetners this cycle. They are the ones paying out the as- for donor sperm. I guess even stevia is bad for fertility I though i was doing okay with that. I wonder if splenda is better? I can't face life without sweetner you know? Especially that retched green tea, peach flavor is a little better than plain.
UGh sounds just crazy about your work load. I don't think you have any idea how valuble you are there. Sounds good about trying to stay away from ttc boards and stuff. I will miss your frequent posts but it may make you obsess less which is always good!

 

[Blythe]

Alison - i used to use sweeteners many years ago. They are very very bad for you and i would much rather have sugar in their place. I have a very sweet tooth and would love to ditch the sugar but i cannot so i just try and cut it down a bit.

Briss - surely your work friend could have just taken some time off sick....she would have got paid too i would imagine. I have never had a breakdown but i have had bouts of depression...it is horrible when it gets too much. Our minds and bodies can do so much...i have done jobs where i was working 13 hours days 7 days a week for months on end and i actually enjoyed the adrenalin and the camaraderie working amongst others doing the same. It is only when i stopped that i actually became fairly ill...i had a weird beard of spots [attractive!] and my immune system was just shot. I simply could not do that now and i am in awe of you doing those long hours you do. Isn't part and parcel of your profession though? Would it be possible to change your working pattern or reduce your hours? i guess it would but to the detriment of your position at work.


with reference to our eggs...i believe that the drug protocol used in my IVF absolutely compromised the quality. I remember very very clearly that my body started feeling moldy and that i had ovulated around CD13/14 when i was still injecting 450iu gonal f for a further 3 days. I did lose the larger eggs and i believe my body was going into luteul phase mode and so that just worked against the eggs left. Some women respond very well to high dosages and i think i would have done ok if they had retrieved eggs a few days before they did in my case. I really do believe Briss that your eggs are perfectly fine and most certainly capable of giving you your much longed for child/children. You have just had the most terrible run of bad luck.

I have been talking about donor sperm too as DH has been binge drinking and thinks nothing of downing a bottle of wine when he gets home. It would be ok if he did it occasionally but......

i think about IVF every day most of the day. We have agreed to go ahead with another round if i have lost weight [a stone!] by december. I would be looking to do this at Create with a mild stim round. As ever, all subject to change. My weight is not really falling but my fitness has been improving and i have much more definition in my arms. I feel stronger and that feels good. I just really need to buckle down and eat less than i do which is so difficult for me.

Its a sod that Reprofit do not have imsi. Have you an idea of how long you need to be over there during a natural cycle of IVF?

 

[alison29]

Blythe you can do it! Keep your eye on the prize. I know easier said then done. The more i excercise the more i eat so i feel like it evens out unless I consciously fast for a meal a day (or just eat plain veggies or something) .So how many pounds is a stone? All three of our dhs drink too much, wow what are the chances? I 'll have to try using real sugar and see what it does to me.
I believe your eggs are fine too ladies..So you both have soemthing to look forward to soon

 

[Blythe]

14lbs so a fair few!! I quite like you idea of fasting a meal rather than the whole day. I have read about the 5:2 diet but I cannot go a whole day on do few calories.

 

[Vonn]

Hi everyone! I'm pretty new here, mainly reading/stalking. I have been doing acupuncture and herbs for two and a half cycles and have a couple questions.

Two months ago I had acu done on 9DPO, needles in belly among other places. Later that night I spotted, and continued spotting til AF. Last month, I had acu done on 10DPO and expressed concern about acu causing bleeding. She didn't do needles in belly & added one in big toe supposed to stop bleeding. I again started spotting that night. Pre AF spotting is not unusual for me, just hoping acu would improve it, not have it continue, or worse, cause it. The timing could be coincidence, it just seems weird. Anyone else have this happen?

Also, there is spot near my left thumb that has started to hurt a lot--a sharp nerve or tendon pain when my thumb bends a certain way. It's right near a spot that is needled every week and got bruised two weeks ago. Again, has anyone experienced this?

Thanks for any feedback & sorry for long post!

 

[Briss]

Vonn, welcome! I am not the best person to talk about TCM but from my experience Pre AF spotting is annoying and acu does not always help. I had it for about 3 months, two of which I was on acu/herbs but I think taking a very strong vitamin B complex is what helped in the end. obvious checking your progesterone level of day 7-8 after ovulation is a good idea to rule out low progesterone levels. There could be so many things that's causing it. There is a really good discussion on this on FF which i joined - https://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=319642.0 together we tried various things to figure it out but the more we tried the more confusing it got. i never got to the bottom of why it happened but it disappeared after 3 months as unexpectedly as it started.

I also had my nerves and blood vessels punctured during acu it coursed pain and bruising and it did not last longer than a few days. if it worries you I'd definitely raise it with your doc.

alison, I gave up coffee during my IVf and we know how well that worked out I really struggle to motivate myself cos none of the things I have done/sacrificed made any difference whatsoever. Just to be on the safe side if we move on to our next IVf I will stop coffee but at the moment i think my last IVf's damage far outweighs any possible damage that I get from drinking coffee. I usually have fruit sugar, I do to trust artificial sweeteners I think they have some nasties in them so if you are going to eat sugar for for something simple like chocolate or fruit sugar. I seriously need to cut down on sugar it's just so damaging to eggies.

I am so surprised you do not like the taste of green tea I love it! the only flavour I can take is jasmine. have you tried mate tea? I got so used to mate tea that even my favourite green tea does not taste as good anymore.

I think I am beginning to resent TTC boards even LTTTC because 99% of women I have seen on those boards even the ones who struggled a lot they all got their happy endings and my situation just gets worse. it's a bit hard to find your self in that 1% of super unlucky people e.g. I have not found anyone I know who had intra-abdominal bleeding even after 4-5 IVFs. am obviously feeling sorry for myself which is probably not helpful.

btw that clinic in CR told me that they get serious intra-abdominal bleeding after EC every 400-500 procedures so they were not terribly surprised about my condition and just wanted to be sure the blood completely absorbed and that I feel totally normal before we do IVF. I can't really feel normal tbh. It's like my lower abdomen is so fragile that I always need to be careful when I walk or seat down or do anything, running is just unthinkable at the moment.

Blythe, totally agree re sugar. My college is off sick for a few weeks but she gave her notice just before that. she basically said she could not take this anymore - not having life, being tied to this job, being unable to plan anything or spend evenings with her husband. I totally understand all that and feel like blackberry is a sort of chain replacement but still a form of slavery, my way out of this was to sacrifice the quality of my work. it saves me 4-5 hours a day if I do not perfect my drafting. I know in the last few years partners must have noticed that i am not a very good lawyer but that's what i paid in order to have the time to TTC (professionally) and not to stress out as much as I used to. I wouldn't be able to be working 13 hours a day 7 days a week now I do leave before 7 pm most days unless there is a crisis but even then I do not care so i do not feel stressed most of the time.

re your IVF, that's outrages that they made you carry on with injections after natural ovulation, they so screwed up your cycle and hormones, it's just shocking how they ignore body's natural processes thinking that they now control the cycle while they really do not control anything.

I am so excited that you decided to go ahead with another round of IVF!! I totally support that decision. I would not necessarily tie it to your weight loss though because losing weight just before IVF may not necessarily give you any advantage (I mean you are not really overweight or anything). Are you going to do intensive acu/herbs as you did before previous IVF? I think it worked really well that time.

You know what I thought about Create but I started going slightly easier on them after my UCLH misery. Still I really am not sure Create is right for you because you respond perfectly well to normal stim IVF. Create are really great and supportive and positive when it comes to natural cycles but I am just not sure about mild stims. would you not consider going abroad? we still paid about 5,500 for mild stim cycle at Create while it will cost around 2,000 euro in retrofit.

Speaking of Reprofit, they are very efficient and very responsive. i had some correspondence with the co-ordinator but because i had lots of medical questions they connected me to one of the doctors who responds to my questions which very positive. My only negative observation so far is they immediately blamed my eggiest for the failed fertilisation and suggested natural IVf is not going to improve our odds as quality is just not there. I resent that. also they do not recognise the benefits of endometacin which I personally worship. they offered PICSI as they do not do IMSI. it's not great as this procedure seems to help pick mature sperm while IMSi helps with morphology issue but I suppose it's better than just ICSI.

 

[Blythe]

i think the only way we can move forward with IVF if it is not going to cost more than 5k...i guess that is why i looked at Create. I could get it for about 4.5k at kings with ICSI but they just don't take any bloods or monitor enough for my liking.

Briss - Do you know of anywhere in London that is reasonable?

i do understand your comments about being on boards. I just cannot keep saying the same things also something died in me after that stupid IVF and i struggle to imagine it happening when i really did believe it before. I know it can happen as it does with others. I would go abroad but I'm not sure we can manage it logistically....on a full stim cycle we would need to be there for at least a couple of weeks i would imagine and once accommodation/flights/time of work for DH paid for we would not really see to much financial benefit. If we were doing natural cycles then i think it would be far more viable.

Im not sure how i feel about acu and herbs anymore.....

 

[Briss]

Blythe, that's the breakdown on what we paid for mild stims at Create:

Gonal F: 300+100+150= 550
Ovitrell: 30
Cetrotide 70 +70=140
bloods: 75 + 75 +75 +75=300

IVF 2,990
ICSI 980
Sedation: 230
HFEA fee 75
Embryoscope 600 (refunded as not used)

Total: £5,895

as you can see scans are included but not bloods and meds, they use Gonal F for mild sims but if you can ask them to use menopur instead you can save a bit if you take mine (I feel the Czech clinic wants to suggest that we do some kind of stims but I really do not want to put my ovaries through that so most likely we will stick to natural and I won't need it). it also does not include the meds after ET cos we did not get there.

My understanding of the Reprofit prices:

Mild stim IVF 1950 Euro (including consultation, treatment plan, sperm analysis, oocyte (egg) retrieval, general anesthesia, ICSI, extended cultivation of embryos till the blastocyst stage (5 days), assisted hatching and the embryo transfer.
IVF (natural) 850 euro + ICSI of each oocyte 50 euro.
STD´s 100 Euro/person.
The price of medication depends on prescribed dosage between 1000 and 1500 Euro.
donor sperm 200 Euro.
PICSI 150 euro
They accept your previous blood results so no need to repeat them.
+ Flights/hotels. You should have travel insurance when you travel abroad, but no travel insurance cover expenses due to health complications during IVF cycle.

If I were you I'd rather go to Lister than Create. BUT I think they are a bit more expensive but not 100% sure. worth going there was an open day actually. I am by no means against Create it's just that you are a good responder so you can take slightly higher stim doses (to have a few frozen embryos) and I do not think Create does that so you may not get as many embryos as you can.

See below an abstract from Reprofit's email just to give you an idea how they do it logistically (you do not need to be there for 2 weeks and your DH can only come for 1 day for EC):

"You are more than welcome to come to Brno personally for the first consultation or we can set everything up via email. You can consult everything with your own doctors in your country as they can be of great help. If you are interested to come and be treated at our clinic, I will ask you to fill up the "first virtual visit" on our web site: https://www.reprofit.cz/fvv/en.

We need results of blood tests (hormonal profile), taken within first three days of your menstrual cycle: FSH = follicle-stimulating hormone, LH = luteinizing hormone, E2 = estradiol, TSH = thyroid-stimulating hormone, PRL = prolactin, AMH = anti-mullerian hormone and also results of the recent spermiogram.

On that basis the doctor suggest you the best method of the treatment and will create your personal stimulation protocol. You can start the stimulation in your country and come for egg retrieval and embryo transfer (if you have the doctor locally who can help you with ultrasound scans- depend on this will be the length of your staying here)."

I can do the bloods in that place in Bond street but not sure about the scans actually. Something for me to research. but as a last resort there are many places where you can just do a scan privately.

re boards, that's exactly it, by repeating the same thing over and over again I just feel like I am stuck in the TTC zone. Most importantly I do not get as much useful info as I used to because by now I have absorbed so much knowledge about the bloody thing... it also takes a lot of time but does not bring me any comfort anymore cos I compare myself to others and just can't help but feel very unlucky. btw, did you know according to maya we were supposed to enter the Golden Age in 2012? meaning that things are supposed to be getting better. I do not feel it yet

I hear you on acu/herbs but if it was not this expensive I'd totally advise that you stick with what you did before your previous IVF simply because your response was great and it's not your fault that King's did not manage your cycle well.

 

[Blythe]

Briss - thank you so much for the detail. It really angers me that they just add the bloods as extras as if you haven't already paid enough!! Does that figure for Create include your initial scans and consolation?

i will look at the lister - thank you for the recommendation. I will certainly not rule out reprofit and will need to look at flight/taxi/hotel/food costs and work out how i could go through majority of stims in UK and how much that would cost.

 

[Briss]

The initial scan and consultation at Create was something like 200 and was supposed to be deducted from the IVF cost but tbh I forgot to mention this as there was 2-3 months between the scan and the treatment so I am not sure if it was deducted in the end.

Lister was on my list as well but I just think Reprofit is more affordable if we are going natural IVF route: 850 euros vs £4-6K...

 

[Briss]

One thing to know about Reprofit is that apparently Reprofit doesn't freeze embryos unless they are AAA gold standard. Also Reprofit's prices are going up at the end of the year.

Ryan Air flies to Brno for 50-250 return, it can super cheap + 24 train/bus to stanstead. some people prefer staying in Prague and taking a bus to Brno.

 

[Vonn]

Thanks, Briss!

You seem to have a particularly awful TTC experience. Have you (or anyone here) ever read the book "Making Babies: A Proven 3-Month Program for Maximum Fertility"? It's written by Dr. Sami David (fertility specialist) and Jill Blakeway (LAc). Supposed to bring together the best of both worlds.

It recommends blood and cervical mucus testing for many issues that the previous FS I went never ordered. In fact, that doctor went almost straight to clomid without hardly exploring potential problems. I am about to begin with a new FS, and will be demanding all the tests explained in the book!

If anyone's had a non-thorough FS like my first one, some of these tests might explain the on-going issues, despite the very advanced treatment protocols being used. If everything is "normal," some of the tests they recommend (or other hints/suggestions they provide) might uncover an issue other FS/LAc hadn't bother to check. It's giving me hope, at least! And hope is one of the most important things to have on this journey!!

 

[Briss]

Vonn, i think most of us read that book, it's good and definitely very informative (although "the infertility cure" is probably the best book out there) but it does not replace going to an actual practitioner. for example, I was not able to identify yin deficiency based on their questionnaire but every TCM doc I've been to says I have it. I do not know how long have you been TTC but definitely worth while starting charting, temping, using CBFM/OPK or check your CM etc so you know when you ovulate, how long is your LP and whether you have CM issue, get on with your diet/vitamins/supps/herbs etc obviously check all your bloods (day 3: FSH, LH, E2, AMH; 21 DPO progesterone), ask for a test to check your tubes, do scans to check how many follicles you produce, any cysts etc. but tbh considering our age group I perfectly understand why your doc rushed straight to climid, I do not want to be negative but I would not waste much time either. if you do all of the above and not pregnant in 6 month I'd consider IVF.

 

[Vonn]

I have heard of the "Infertility Cure," but haven't picked it up. I should do that.

I have been through the basic work-up, but no HSG to check for blockage. I am on progesterone 2nd half of cycle and am temping, using fertility monitor, and examining CM. My luteal phase is now 12 days long--great considering it used to be between 8-11. (Thyroid issue that's still not fully resolved.)

Taking all kinds of stuff (B complex, pineapple core for 5 days after ov, a bunch of supps like zinc, coq10, etc.), and added acupuncture and herbs a couple months ago. Next thing is back to the fertility specialists. Very open to IUI, but nervous as heck about how we'd pay for IVF.

My primary care dr. is first running heavy metal testing on me cuz she just can't figure out what the root cause of my health issues is.

Definitely feeling the clock ticking. It would be great for someone to get a BFP & give everyone else a boost!

 

[Briss]

Vonn, did they manage to figure out why you are not naturally producing enough progesterone? if you are supplementing with synthetic progesterone every month then I am not surprised that your LP is improving but I wonder if it goes back to what it was before once you stop synthetic progesterone? Have they done cycle monitoring to be sure you are in fact ovulating every month? I read that if progesterone is low but you are ovulating it may indicate poor egg quality basically the yellow body that released the egg is somehow defective because of the quality of the egg that went out and so it's not producing the right amount of progesterone. Just a theory though.

What's heavy metal testing for? can it explain your low progesterone? What does your practitioner give you for yang deficiency (I am just guessing with low progesterone they probably diagnosed you with yang deficiency?)

How's your temp? is there a clear temp shift after O? the TCM practitioners like to see a noticeable difference in temp before and after O.

have you checked your DH? if sperm is good than IUI maybe all you need. I totally understand about IVf but looking back on my 4 years TTC not starting IVF sooner is my main regret.

If you read back on this thread you will see that most ladies did get their BFPs in the end, some naturally but most with IVF (on first go), there are a few of us left here still fighting for our BFPs. I really hope your stay will be a short one and you will move quickly to pregnancy boards.

 

[Vonn]

Thanks for the feedback and suggestions, Briss! I know you are feeling like you giving more than you are getting on the ttc boards. Are you for sure going the Czech Rep route & would you go before year's end?

Hypothyroidism (low thyroid) can cause low progesterone as can high levels of the stress hormone cortisol--both of which I have issues with.

My temp does increase after ovulation, but it is a slow rise, taking a couple days to jump. My acu practitioner has me on a bunch of weird tasting herbs 2x day, could name them off-hand. I don't recall her telling me yang deficiency, but I remember hearing "weak qi." Last week she did say my tongue and pulses are improving, so that's something!

I believe my hypothyroidism just isn't optimally treated yet & once it is the progesterone issue (and all the symptoms) will resolve. My dr thinks something else (like toxic heavy metal levels) is interfering with everything--making all the hormones out of whack, the gut wonky, etc. I'm open to whatever she wants to try, but deep down sort of think it's the thyroid & am a little bothered she really thinks it's something else.

I will look into/ask the new FS about the progesterone & egg quality issue. I hadn't come across that, so good to know! Depressing as hell, but good to know. Also, good advice on not putting IVF off.

And DH tests came back normal...so it's me. Used to be perfectly healthy but no man; now I've got the man and the health goes to pot. Ah, life!

 

[Briss]

Vonn, I am sorry if I sound so negative, i usually am though unfortunately. really struggling to see things positively but I am trying... I found B&B really informative the first couple of years, there was so much to learn about TTC but it's just none of this brought us any closer to BFP.

I hear you on Hypothyroidism, my mum has it and I've always been aware of it and periodically check my bloods for any signs but so far it's been very mild my TSH is below 4, sometimes even as good as around 2, and T3/T4 are in mid range. it's possible that when I had my pre AF spotting my TSH was higher than usual so maybe in part responsible (although I did check my progesterone when i had spotting but it was high). Are you on synthetic thyroid hormone? I read a book on Hypothyroidism and talked to an endocrinologist and it does look like no one wants to bother with this, they wait until your TSH levels are high enough and then put you on hormone. I am clearly at a risk of developing it in the future but there is absolutely nothing they can do (so they say) about it, i will either develop it in the future or I won't. I am sure there is something i could do. I think stress is probably the main factor as thyroid is very sensitive to stress. Did you check your cortisol levels?

I have an issue with sugar, I consume far too much of this stuff so it may also have something to do with my eggs or thyroid.

btw, your chart looks healthy. temp is not too low for hypothyroidism. When I had pre AF spotting my temp suddenly got a bit lower than usual before and after O. Why would you have higher toxic heavy metal levels? Did you live or work or was otherwise exposed to this? Have you checked your egg reserve (FSH, AMH, AFC)? is it still good? the age might be depressing but reserve is far more important, some ladies here have very good egg reserves after 40 so have still good chances of getting pregnant.

I am very seriously thinking about that clinic in Czech Republic. I would much rather do IVf here in London but with natural IVF it may take many months before we are successful and the prices are just ridiculously high here, we can't afford paying 4-6K every month.

I am writing an awful lot for smb who wants to spend less time on TTC forums

 

[Vonn]

Well, a safe and relatively anonymous place to vent is a huge reason these boards exist! Getting it out is impt.

I think my dr is sort of grasping at straws with the heavy metal testing. I did test for high morning cortisol. And my FSH was tested a year ago and was okay, not overly worrisome. I will have those tests done at my new place--much better educated now!

Thanks again for the suggestions, Briss. I hope you never have to deal with thyroid issues, it's a total bummer. And I hope your mom is treated optimally and doesn't suffer with any symptoms. All the endocrinologists I have dealt with suck. I go to an integrative dr. Vent over.

 

[Blythe]

Briss - your chart looks nice and healthy...How are you?