Fckh8

[MommyJogger]

I have never seen a job in my field advertized with a price. Certain jobs have standard pay determined by larger bodies (the university or a gov't grant agency, for example, and these jobs are usually designated as training positions), but most of the sought-after jobs have salary offers made when you're offered the job.
I think it might not be as poignant in a country with maternity leave, but I think it's foolish to say that women are actually choosing the lower-payed jobs. A job culture where taking time off when you have a baby or actually taking vacation days you've earned to spend with your family is punished, looked down upon as not being invested in the job, and discretely selected against through mobility stagnation and job cuts isn't a culture where primary caregivers have 'choice'. The US is a country where women are disproportionately penalized for having children. The job conditions cited as being unfriendly to parents that encourage them to seek lower positions are ones that shouldn't exist in the first place. If you have to work 80 hour weeks to complete something, then that's something 2 people should be doing, not one person getting paid for 40 hours to do, but that's the reality of getting to the sought-after jobs in my field until you're well after reproductive age.
Not to mention the serious dearth of quality child care, without even getting into the affordability of it. I don't mind the $1400 daycare bill each month, but I do mind that what parents get for the money is that little Johnny is ignored in a crib and barely spoken to all day until keystone star inspectors or a visiting prospective student's mother come out to visit and 5 more adults magically appear to make the room seem pleasant.

 

[Larkspur]

I think it might not be as poignant in a country with maternity leave, but I think it's foolish to say that women are actually choosing the lower-payed jobs. A job culture where taking time off when you have a baby or actually taking vacation days you've earned to spend with your family is punished, looked down upon as not being invested in the job, and discretely selected against through mobility stagnation and job cuts isn't a culture where primary caregivers have 'choice'. The US is a country where women are disproportionately penalized for having children. The job conditions cited as being unfriendly to parents that encourage them to seek lower positions are ones that shouldn't exist in the first place. If you have to work 80 hour weeks to complete something, then that's something 2 people should be doing, not one person getting paid for 40 hours to do, but that's the reality of getting to the sought-after jobs in my field until you're well after reproductive age.

Ugggggh, this exactly. I hate how working ridiculous hours for corporate entities that will almost certainly try to bilk employees on any aspect of job security or benefits if given half a chance has somehow become a point of pride, and a reason for childless people to moan about parents (mothers, primarily) "not pulling their weight".

REALLY? How about it's the company not "pulling their weight" by making 20 people do the jobs of 30 people and calling that a "productivity gain"?!

 

[steph.]

It's not only jobs either that women are discriminated against...it starts earlier than that. I started medical school in Glasgow in 2003, the class was 70% women and 30% men. By the time I graduated 5 years later the medical school were making a conscious effort to accept more men (the ratio was now 50:50) because 'women go on maternity leave' and it wasn't worth it for the NHS.

 

[minties]

I didn't mind the swearing and can see the points being made.

I have never felt like the world was against me for being a woman, but I can see the unbalances in life.

Some sexism even works in my favour. Like being able to stay home with the kids (dad viewed as the breadwinner), having help offered with difficult physical tasks even if I could do it myself, etc etc. I would honestly hate it if I had to 'be like a man' and do the work my OH does.

We know he gets paid less than the female employees at his job but works harder than they do. It is an outdoor job and the woman are always hiding in the lunchroom or pretending to feel faint when I go visit him at work. They talk about how they use their boobs and ass to trick the men into doing their workload. Then make a huge deal about being strong women and how it's sexist to point out what they do!

 

[steph.]

Minties I agree with you. I like being a woman and think feminists tend to over-victimise women. Even the example I made before with accepting more males to study medicine, I understand why they did that. The NHS is stretched and paying so many women to go on maternity leave just puts an extra strain.

My OH is an aerospace engineer, and 95% of people he works with are men. The women just got to go for a week to Europe (all expenses paid) for a 'Women in Engineering' conference where they talk about how strong they have to be because they are in a male-dominated area. The men have been left behind to do all their work and are PISSED!

 

[Larkspur]

My OH is an aerospace engineer, and 95% of people he works with are men. The women just got to go for a week to Europe (all expenses paid) for a 'Women in Engineering' conference where they talk about how strong they have to be because they are in a male-dominated area. The men have been left behind to do all their work and are PISSED!

Well, if that's the version of the situation that the male engineers believe and tell others, I am not really surprised that a "Women in Engineering" conference is needed.

 

[steph.]

Actually the account didn't come from my dh but from one of the women...

 

[steph.]

Personally I think putting emphasis on gender like in this conference just makes things worse. There should be no discrimination, and yet in this case the men were discriminated against. Why should someone get a perk just because they are a woman in a male dominated industry? They went into that field willingly. As previously said it should be about equality.

 

[MommyJogger]

I don't particularly agree with gender-specific functions. I've always abstained from the 'women in stem' meetings, whether local or abroad. I don't consider them useful, nor do I believe in biased networking opportunities.
But I definitely don't agree with the discrimination in medical student acceptance. It's short-sighted to say that maternity leave is a 'strain' on a system that those women are spending that time having and raising more people to pay in to (not to mention saving them some money by increasing their bf chances through longer leaves, saving the system money. True equality comes when we respect our biological differences. A man and a woman in the same job should each be able to have children and have it impact their careers similarly, even if that act looks biologically different between them. The lab that neighbored mine had both a pregnant lady and an expecting father. He's taking a year's leave of absence and getting praised for it as being a super-involved father, allowed to return and finish his degree and having his projects held for him. She's taking 3mo mat leave and they're pissed she's taking anything over 6 weeks and is losing one of her thesis chapters to another student. We're in similar areas of expertise and I can say without doubt that the man's research project is waaay more time-sensitive than hers. Then her boss tried to bring it up in conversation with my husband and his boss, saying it's "just typical of female students to expect time off just for popping out a kid".

 

[Larkspur]

Have you ever worked in a strongly male dominated industry? I have, I used to be a photojournalist, and it is extremely tough. You have to be better than your colleagues to get the same level of respect, you get told it's not a woman's job, and you get a level of sexual harassment that far outweighs what you get in more gender balanced industries.

Why should this be just "what women should expect" because they picked that job? Is it really fair that women face working environments like that year-round, then when their employer chooses to send them to a conference to discuss these challenges, it is written off by their colleagues as a self-congratulatory junket and the men are pissed or pitied because they have to "pick up" what by definition must be no more than five percent more work for a week?

 

[steph.]

No I haven't worked in a male-dominated field (though as a female ER doctor I have had my fair share of sexual harassment and discrimination). And no I don't think it's fair that women should have to work harder for the same level of respect, and I don't think that they should put up with sexual harassment. I also don't think they should be given perks just because they are women. In an ideal world it should be based on their ability and not on gender.

With this conference at my dh's work, I should probably have explained a little better, a few of the women put in an application for it (along with a 20 minute speech online about how strong they are and how hard being a woman is) and it got granted straight away. Some other people had put in applications for other courses way before and it hadn't even been processed yet. Even my dh's boss who is a woman (although gay but still very much a woman and very well respected) thought it was really unfair. If they want to be treated as equal then they shouldn't pull out the female card when it suits.

 

[minties]

Have you ever worked in a strongly male dominated industry? I have, I used to be a photojournalist, and it is extremely tough. You have to be better than your colleagues to get the same level of respect, you get told it's not a woman's job, and you get a level of sexual harassment that far outweighs what you get in more gender balanced industries.

Why should this be just "what women should expect" because they picked that job? Is it really fair that women face working environments like that year-round, then when their employer chooses to send them to a conference to discuss these challenges, it is written off by their colleagues as a self-congratulatory junket and the men are pissed or pitied because they have to "pick up" what by definition must be no more than five percent more work for a week?

I worked as a panel beater briefly in my teenage years and it did suck badly. I was 17 and the only female there. No one harassed me but I was totally ignored to the point where I didn't have anything to do when I went to work. I would just mill about sanding random panels and drinking coffee. I did not stay there long.

The year I left highschool I was doing a panelbeating course in 6th form (done instead of the usual curriculum but at school) and one teacher used to tease me relentlessly about being a female, calling me blossom and boobs. He said there was no way I would have been allowed to do it in India where he was from.

I must be a glutton for punishment as I again ended up being the only female on an I.T course back before I got pregnant with Thomas. However I was never teased or singled out there so it was nice.

 

[Larkspur]

No I haven't worked in a male-dominated field (though as a female ER doctor I have had my fair share of sexual harassment and discrimination). And no I don't think it's fair that women should have to work harder for the same level of respect, and I don't think that they should put up with sexual harassment. I also don't think they should be given perks just because they are women. In an ideal world it should be based on their ability and not on gender.

With this conference at my dh's work, I should probably have explained a little better, a few of the women put in an application for it (along with a 20 minute speech online about how strong they are and how hard being a woman is) and it got granted straight away. Some other people had put in applications for other courses way before and it hadn't even been processed yet. Even my dh's boss who is a woman (although gay but still very much a woman and very well respected) thought it was really unfair. If they want to be treated as equal then they shouldn't pull out the female card when it suits.

But surely the point is that we do not yet live in an ideal world, and women are not yet treated as equal, hence why certain "perks" exist to redress the balance?

You can't on one hand acknowledge that women are not yet treated as equal and on the other say that they can't do or say anything to draw attention to that inequality if they want to be treated as equal. Putting up and shutting up has worked for exactly nobody who wanted to change things!

 

[steph.]

By no means do I think they should put up and shut up. I just don't agree with discrimination by gender and I think it goes against the cause (and is rather hypocritical). It seems a lot of the feminist movement shut men out instead of integrating them and making them see a different point of view, which is why I quite like this video. It raises awareness and reaches a wide public.

 

[Natsku]

I liked the video. People have been ignoring the message for so long, sometimes a bit of controversy is necessary to get people to pay attention.

And there's still a long way to go yet for gender equality https://www.theguardian.com/news/da...-has-fully-closed-gender-gap-yet-report-shows The UK is slipping further down the rankings - women definitely don't get equal pay for equal work (on average)

 

[Desi's_lost]

GR. Typed this twice already, keeps getting deleted so this is the super abridged version.

I was watching Beethoven's 2nd last night which is one of the movies with the Saint Bernard from the 90's. Family movies, mostly aimed at kids more than older teens. There is a scene where the family is on vacation for the 4th of July and the oldest daughter walks over to another cottage with Beethoven where her crush (a popular jock type) is having a house party. The crush immediately swoops her up to go see the view from upstairs, then locks her in a room and says it'll' be a night to remember..this makes that typical party style sexual assault a hot enough topic to have been thrown in a kids movie from 20 years ago. And nothing has really changed! We don't need to teach our boys not to rape. Just to have some respect.

 

[minties]

I'll have to watch that one!

I remember a James Bond film where Bond forces the leading lady into a passionate kiss and she looks like she is trying very hard to struggle and fight him off. They have sex and it always screamed 'rape' to me. We don't all like to be shoved up against a wall and snogged like poor weak things who say no and mean yes :-/.

I had some interesting sexism from a lady the other day. She was here to do a survey about how people get their news and what papers and magazines they read.

She had a few separate piles of cards with magazine and paper names on them, and was asking me to look through them and name ones I had bought in the past. There was a pile of names of automotive mags and she said 'we can skip these obviously'. I told her off! I love car mags.

She also made lots of annoying comments about having my hands full (with the kids) and how if I were working I would spend all weekend catching up with housework as men shouldn't have to do that sort of thing.