Fifth loss in a row (the worst sequel in the world)

[LacePrincess]

It's confirmed now that we will be having our fifth loss in a row.

I had my followup scan yesterday, at 8w. Embryo measured 6w2d with a hb of only 48.

And now I have to wait for the heartbeat to fade away. We've had a lot of losses, but we've never had to wait out a dying heartbeat before, and it just feels so much harder. That there WAS a life, still is a little life, but it's not going to make it.

The good news is that I o'ed from my right, which is the side I have a blocked tube on, so clearly I can get preggo from my right ovary (my dominant ovary) despite the blocked tube.

This pregnancy was pretty classic aneuploid. Slow hcg off the bat, behind on every scan, slow heartbeat. So, some kind of trisomy. At least it looks like it shouldn't be an underlying immune or other chronic disorder with me that's causing the losses.

However, the question remains - why so many aneuploids in a row? DH and I are both 37, not super old. I suspect sperm issues are the main culprit, but there's really no fix for that. We're still waiting for our karyotyping results and I'm really eager to get those and see if maybe we've had a karyotype issue all along that is biting us in the butt now.

In the meantime, the hubby isn't dealing with this very well. He's frustrated and feeling helpless, and as a guy he just can't accept that he can't fix it. Plus I'm sure there's guilt there that it's his side of things that's the problem.

I'm just sad that there's a little dying bean inside, and I have such mixed feelings about that. I want my body to pass things quickly, but then I feel guilty hoping for the little bean to pass quick too. And I just don't understand why it's never our turn, and why this keeps happening to us.

 

[Sweetkat]

I am so sorry you are going through this.

I have to say we are mirror images of each other (except that I am too scared to get pregnant after the 3rd MMC).

My second loss was the same. Behind on every scan, very slow hb around 7 weeks, also no hope and was told large yolk sack and chromosomal.

Nothing has been diagnosed for me or OH (we paid thousands for private tests and also had them on the national health (NHS) (the ones we could - same tests just to double check).

But OH's fragmentation is 44%. It basically means there is a 35% chance of miscarriage instead of the usual 20% at our age (I am now 36).

My OH is taking anti oxidants and off the medication causing the fragmentation and I am not trying unless fragmentation down or with donor sperm. Weirdly though our last loss was due to Down syndrome which apparrently has nothing to do with fragmentation. So yours too could be random bad luck and fragmentation combined.

Big hugs, I hated the fact baby was alive and yet wouldn't make it with second loss and yet the physical process was like a heavy period and had a period 4 weeks later.

Big big hugs

 

[LacePrincess]

Thanks so much Sweetkat. It sucks. I'm so sorry you went through this too.

Well I'm pretty crampy today, and when I checked internally in the shower there was a tiny bit of blood streaked ewcm this morning, so hopefully this means my body is starting to m/c on its own. It would be nice not to have to use Cytotec or worse have to have a d&c.

I have such mixed feelings though, about being glad it feels like the m/c is starting. I mean there's relief that it shouldn't drag on and on but also guilt because that means the bean has died.

Otherwise, I had a good day. I went to ballet class, and it was great not having to think about this at all. I'm glad I went. I'm also not feeling too sad, at least not yet. But I was extremely detached and expecting another loss all the way with this one, I just presume every bfp I get will end badly. I'm kind of cynical now.

We're still waiting for our karyotyping results, I'll followup on Monday. I wish we could get a DNA frag test done because I'm really quite sure it's a sperm DNA problem, but they don't have that test at my clinic.

 

[Sweetkat]

It's awful to have to go through it, but what makes me feel a bit better is that with my last two losses, they couldn't and wouldn't have made it to full term (because of chromosomal issues). With the first one I have no idea. So at least it's not like my body is rejecting healthy babies

But of course I desperately want a healthy baby. I think about it almost every minute of every day. OH is going to have another fragmentation test in 3 weeks and then we will see if there is any change.

The NHS (state system here) also doesn't do these tests and said oh it might not matter. It's like hello, every research paper says it leads to poor embryo quality. I had a scan of the womb last week and asked the Dr at state clinic all these questions and she said I don't know. But at the private clinic I was told it raises risk of miscarriage from 20% to 35%. That Dr (who works in a fertility/ assisted reproduction clinic) also told me that all of his couples with DNA fragmentation went on to have babies and only 2 used donor sperm.

 

[LacePrincess]

Sweetkat, that's true. It would be worse if my body was rejecting healthy embryos. So I am glad that I'm pretty sure now it's not me, it's the embryos.

OTOH, why the F*^&$*% are we making so damned many aneuploids?!?!? WTF!

The timing is curious. I always seem to lose them at EXACTLY the same point, with the exception of the chemicals. Otherwise it's been, 6w, 6w3d, mmc measuring 6w3d, and this one measured 6w2d. Almost to the day they stop growing at 4.7mm or so. So what the heck is going on at that point of development that my embies never seem to be able to make it past?

I found this rather interesting article about how sperm damage causes miscarriage. Not a lot of suggestions on what to do, but it makes sense!!


https://www.tommys.org/miscarriage-research-project-6-impact-damaged-sperm-miscarriage

Oh it does give me hope what your dr said, that even with DNA frag eventually it's possible to have a healthy baby, just.....how many losses will it take to get there, yk?

 

[LacePrincess]

Oh this is a good article too:

https://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/content/17/8/1959.long

Basically it says what I've always thought......that RPL can be due to implanting aneuploid embies when the body really should be rejecting them.

Which means - maybe the Femara was making me uselessly super fertile after all. So next step for us - going unmedicated again and seeing if my body will figure out what to do.

 

[ReadynWaiting]

Lace- first off I'm so sorry you are going through this again. I hate that anyone has to experience this bullshit. I feel like you are literally telling my story! Last year we would get pg just looking at each other but never made it past 7 weeks. We saw 2 with a hb but they never developed past 7 weeks. Hb was always a little low. The other 4 losses were chemicals. The 2 MMC I held inside for 5-6 weeks as my body wouldn't recognize they had passed. Our tests came back normal, sperm was fine!
In all of my reading the only thing that I can think might be an issue is high inflammation or high nk cells. I doubt it's either but I don't know what else it could be an no one else seems to know. Here in Canada we aren't as advanced or willing to recognize issues that they do in the UK and Australia. It's so freakin frustrating! I want to think of something else and focus on something different. I feel stuck and angry and I'm tired of it! We are approaching 3 years of ttc this baby and I've just had enough. There are girls on the rmc thread that have had over 10 losses to finally get their rainbow. I don't know if I can keep having more but I so desperately want another baby.
I get the complete disconnect as it's happened the last 4 losses! I don't want to hope because it causes to much pain when it doesn't work out. My heart goes out to you and I hope you can have that rainbow.

 

[Sweetkat]

At the private clinic I was diagnosed with elevated NK cells. State system doesn't believe in them.

But here is the big but, I asked if NK cells lead to chromosomal issues and was told no. And my last two losses were chromosomal. So NK cells didn't cause the losses but could have contributed to them... Well I don't know if I believe in a NK cells but am prepared to take steroids. Yet those NK cells don't explain the last two losses.

 

[ReadynWaiting]

Oh this is a good article too:

https://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/content/17/8/1959.long

Basically it says what I've always thought......that RPL can be due to implanting aneuploid embies when the body really should be rejecting them.

Which means - maybe the Femara was making me uselessly super fertile after all. So next step for us - going unmedicated again and seeing if my body will figure out what to do.

This is a good article.

 

[LacePrincess]

Ready - thanks so much. This is one helluva craptastic shared experience, but I am glad not to be alone. I'm so sorry for all of yours too, no one should have to deal with this bullcrap.

I don't think mine are NK cells either, as we have had kids without issues. And mine seem textbook aneuploid so it's a chromosome issue. Actually my latest one is pretty classic Trisomy 16 or 18.

I am willing to keep trying (and losing) to get my rainbow, but I really hope it doesn't take double digits!!! I'm just SICK of losing all this time every loss. Like if they're aneuploid, why can't my stupid body just reject them? Why implant, hang on for 8 weeks, if it's never meant to be? By the time I get the m/c over with and wait for the hcg to drop enough to ovulate again, I could've had had 3 regular attempts. I just get so angry at the passage of time.

Today my body isn't doing anything. Barely crampy, no spotting, just pissing me off.

Well we are backing off a bit, we're going to take till the end of the year off with no meds or supplements and just trying on our own and seeing what happens. Then we'll re-evaluate after that, but probably I'll go for the IVF after that.

Oh and I don't let myself hope. EVER. It's too damned hard when it fails again. Except this time there was a hb, and that's a first for us with the losses, and that makes it harder since there was a life in there and it lived even if only for a very tiny little bit. It wasn't 'just' an embryo that never lived, yk? It's harder this time.

 

[Sweetkat]

It is shit and definitely been the worst year of my life (I was first pregnant exactly a year ago). Also saw hb with last 2 losses and with the Downs one saw it 4 times and everything was measuring perfect by 8 weeks.

Thing is, if that baby had made it it would have had a hard life. I know people have Downs babies and they are happy and everything, but they do have health issues, they do get abuse, they have to deal with a lot.

So for me, it was devastating to have the MC but maybe it saved that baby from suffering??

I don't know, nature is shit. You would have thought it would reject bad embryos at comception, not nearly 11 weeks (my last loss).

We will get our babies in the end!

I am half considering IVF with ICSI and IMSI (although the Dr said as we are getting pregnant naturally he would rather not). So I think natural is still preferred.

Big hugs

 

[LacePrincess]

Thanks Sweetkat. ((((((HUGS!!!!)))))))

Yeah there's no other word for it. Shit and more shit. What else is there to say? LOL

I'm in my depressed mode today. My body is doing NOTHING, not even cramping, so f^%$ck this crap, yk?

It's really sad that all I want now is to pass something recognizable so I have something to bury for closure. I hate that so far, my body's either reabsorbed or broken up the tissue so I don't pass anything that doesn't just look like period. It seems to feel like it somehow minimizes the losses even worse, like my tiny babies never were here, only in my head.......it makes it worse.

I'm also just praying that by Wed, the hb WILL be gone. And then I feel guilt. But the thing is, at 48bpm, that is far far too slow to not have a terrible defect, and I do not want to have to choose termination. I don't. I need nature to take care of it. I also read that in very rare cases, Trisomy 18 babies can be born, but have something like 5% life expectancy by the age of 1. I just.....I can't. I need it to resolve by itself because I don't want a hand in ending the little life, I think that would break me completely yk?

I just think it's tragic that the 'best' I can hope for now is that the little bean dies peacefully on its own and I don't have to choose something I just don't want to choose.

We have our OHIP covered IVF round with ICSI, which we'll do, but we won't pay for more after that. It won't help us since bad sperm is creating our aneuploids. I think if our IVF fails, our next step will probably be PGS tested donor embryos. Neither me nor hubby seem very comfortable yet with the idea of donor sperm IUI, it's not sitting right as an idea.

 

[ReadynWaiting]

Lace I totally understand everything you are feeling. My biggest fear is that I grow a baby and I lose him or her at birth. I'm in a loss support group and and there are far too many that have lost their babies either in the 2nd or 3rd tri or at birth. I don't know how I would survive that.
I'm starting to really consider Ivf but hate to have to go through the whole process. I've had 2 friends that have and it was emotionally draining and physically painful. I'm not totally convinced yet.
Lace I hope things happen soon so you aren't waiting in agony. The last MMC I knew from 7 weeks until 12 weeks that the baby had died. I wanted things to happen naturally and not have another d and c but as luck would have it I hemourraged and had to have one anyways. My thoughts are with you.

 

[LacePrincess]

Thanks so much Ready. The waiting is pretty hard to bear.

IVF wasn't physically hard for me, but it was emotionally stressful. You just put so much time (and usually money) into it....I mean, it takes like a month to even prepare to start (the irony of a month on the pill to do IVF!), then the shots, then the reports, and with us the reports always sucked. Watching all your money go down the drain, realizing every night you've just injected yourself with hundreds of dollars of drugs......it's pretty much a total mindf*ck unless tens of thousands of $$$ is nothing to you.

And of course, if it doesn't work, the disappointment is pretty crushing. I think it's hard for us who have RPL as our problem, to choose IVF. Because we *can* get pregnant on our own, that's not our problem. So it's tough to justify the work and stress of IVF to *maybe* improve our chances? It's such a total gamble.

Oh no way do I want to wait till 12 weeks. I only delayed the Cytotec last week because I couldn't induce the m/c with a hb still there. I'm not sure what I'm going to do this week if the h/b hasn't stopped. My hpt's are fading out a tiny bit, so I really hope that means that the bean has passed away and things are starting to progress.

 

[LacePrincess]

Update, had another scan today. The embryo didn't grow since last week and the heartbeat was gone.

So it was the best outcome we could have hoped for today, we're glad at least that the embryo passed on its own and we didn't have to make a choice about whether to terminate or not. I feel a huge relief that the end is in sight.

We also got a second opinion from a different RE today, he basically thinks I'm superfertile and implanting everything when my body should really be much more selective. He's not really sure why it's happening, but that pretty much agrees with what I think is going on too.

 

[ReadynWaiting]

Lace I'm glad you got the outcome that you were looking for. Now I hope the process to pass everything goes quickly. Again so sorry you are going through this but at least you know where things stand right now.
As for the super fertility thing that was me last year. There isn't a lot out there as far as research or answers but if you come across anything I would be interested to know.

 

[LacePrincess]

Thanks Ready. The relief was incredible - I'm sure the RE thought I had gone around the bend, but it was just such a HUGE weight off my conscience.

What've you tried so far regarding the superfertility problem? Aside from IVF/PGS I haven't seen any solutions. The RE said that they know it happens, but they have no way of turning the uterine receptivity back from "taking all comers" to be more discerning. At least they're studying it but it's not like any treatments will be created for quite awhile.

 

[ReadynWaiting]

So I believe my 'super fertility' became more so after each consecutive pregnancy/miscarriage. I had hormones pumping through my body for a year basically. I think my body was just used to being pg and so it didn't discern between viable and non. In March we took a break to give my body a break which I think maybe reset my body. The past 2 cycles we are back to really ttc and last month I had a positive test for a day (10 dpo) which then turned negative the next day. As crazy as it sounds I'm happy it happened because my body hopefully is recognizing good from not. I guess we will see this cycle what happens. If I get another positive hpt then I may get concerned again that my body is doing what it's supposed to.
As for what we have done- I have been working with a ND/TCM who has been working on making my body as healthy and ready as possible to 'house' another baby. We met with a RE in Jan and I was totally turned off by the whole process and him that we didn't go back. In all of my reading and research I think I'm pretty versed on many issues and treatments but he wouldn't listen to any of it. He basically said my eggs are probably old and he wanted to hyper stimulate them to pop out many at once. To me that just sounds like he's rushing me towards menopause.
If I don't get LH in the next 3 cycles my ND is referring me to someone else. Only time will tell.

 

[ReadynWaiting]

*pregnant not LH

 

[LacePrincess]

Ready, I hear you on the RE. A lot of them just shove you towards IVF no matter what - more $$$ in it for them that way. It can make you very cynical!!

I do love my RE. He's very kind and empathetic with me, and he knows I like info so he always tells me why he's recommending stuff. At first I think he was affronted by my questioning and suggestions, like I was questioning his expertise, but he soon realized it's just how I cope - by researching the crap and hyperplanning everything in an effort to control the outcome somehow.

Unfortunately my clinic is super conservative, so they really have just run out of ideas. And they will not throw things at the wall to see what sticks indiscriminately, even though I wish they would.....they're very much a 'only if benefits clearly outweigh the risks' practice. Which I can respect even if in my desperation I'm willing to risk it all, including my future health.

That is a REALLY interesting idea that you felt with each m/c you got more superfertile!! I kind of think that might be happening to me. My lining is so stupidly perfectly (it's usually 11-12mm by mid LP) and with all the hormones and Femara and coming off m/c all the time, I think I'm overprimed too. I'm 37 though and just feel like every frigging month is another month closer to running out of time and I just don't want to take a break.

Well we are sort of taking a break, but not with ttc, just from meds. So maybe my body will calm down and rebalance a bit.

Oh update. I picked up the misoprostol yesterday and had intended to start it on Sat, but this morning I've started to spot red and bleed lightly, so fx this means I'll just have a natural m/c which is always a better thing than having to artificially induce it. And I have a perfect excuse not to attend DH's mess dinner tomorrow, mwuah!