For or against animal testing?

[PeanutBean]

LadyofRohan Are there no moves in the States to ban cosmetic testing as there are in the EU? We're mostly finished with it in the EU, long since in the UK.

 

[LadyofRohan]

LadyofRohan Are there no moves in the States to ban cosmetic testing as there are in the EU? We're mostly finished with it in the EU, long since in the UK.

Truthfully, I don't know. I work in the tissue banking industry so I'm involved in animal testing with bio-implants. So I know alot about why/what/how animal testing is done in this specific area. I don't have any direct knowledge about the cosmetic industry and animal testing.

 

[amygwen]

I'm against it. I work in the Diabetes division at a university where researchers test baboons and mice. Of course, they're doing what they have to do to find a cure for diabetes, but at the same time they're killing these poor animals after they're done with them because they don't need them anymore. To kill mice they just break their necks (they're supposed to inject them with something that will stop their hearts, but supposedly the mice die a lot faster if you break their necks and they don't know they're going to die so it's 'humane'). Plus with the baboons they just kill them, it's really sad. I feel horrible that they do it - but I'm torn because they're trying to do something to help us humans. It's a really controversial topic, I don't know where I stand on it tbh.

 

[special_kala]

I dont agree with it, I dont think its ok but i dont go out of my way to avoid things that have been tested on animals. Bad i know.

I can sort of see that testing medical things on animals has its place but it makes me sad to think that they test stuff like that on monkeys etc but cosmetic stuff? no way is that right. Its bloody make up we can do without it!

 

[Blah11]

I dont agree with it, I dont think its ok but i dont go out of my way to avoid things that have been tested on animals. Bad i know.

I can sort of see that testing medical things on animals has its place but it makes me sad to think that they test stuff like that on monkeys etc but cosmetic stuff? no way is that right. Its bloody make up we can do without it!

speak for yourself

 

[kiwimama]

I'm afraid I don't know the stats for vertebrates for the uk. As you say though the majority are rodents, I think it would be unlikely the larger animals would be. It would depend on the research in question. In some cases it would render life impossible for the animal, for example generic studies into cancer or obesity. In many cases the end point of the research would include histology and genetic study in order to fully understand the effects in which case in rodents this would necessarily mean sacrifice. However it does have to all be done humanely and I doubt it would be in any way worse than slaughter for meat. I would've thought some experiments might be such that the animal could be used again, behavioural studies perhaps.

I think there is general a misperception that all animal research is invasive, painful, inhumane etc which simply is not true. I notice though that no-one has batted an eyelid about my own role in science which involved pain and sacrifice of animals but I guess worms don't matter.

I could have a go at you if you wanted. I think this thread has remained really civil, considering how much differing opinion and how emotive this subject can be.
With regards to the worms, how much pain etc. do they feel? Is it on the same scale as vertebrates? Were they given any type of anesthetic before you started work on them? It's easy for people to not feel sorry for worms because they aren't the "cute and cuddly" type. I think the most sympathy is given towards cats, dogs and monkeys, because the latter are pets and monkeys are seen as very human like.

 

[PeanutBean]

Lol kiwimama my point exactly. It's not that I was inviting criticism of my past work but as you say people only think of mammals. As an undergrad when I did scanning electron microscopy which means 'fixing' (preserving tissue) in glutaldehyde I didn't get much guidance and wasn't told that such a thing is excruciatingly painful so when i chucked the worm in the solution I had to leave the room because the reaction was so upsetting. When I had to collect brains they were VERY well anaesthetised but they still flinched with each cut. Who knows how worms feel pain but they certainly do and why should we assume any animal doesn't? But we don't see activists releasing worms or fish out to the sea. People only have empathy for animals they know. The movement is not fair or equal.

 

[Midnight_Fairy]

I dont agree with it where it can be avoided. I dont really like the idea at all to be honest but I dont know the ins and outs. I often buy not tested on animals stuff and I do try my best x

 

[LadyofRohan]

I think, in the long run, it's just impossible to avoid every product/technique that was developed through animal testing. Yes, you can avoid shampoos and cosmetics that were created from animal testing by just looking at the labels.

However, in the medical field it's just impossible. That surgical technique that was performed? The surgeon practiced on dead animals and then cadavers before perfecting it. The drug you're taking for your head ache/blood pressure/skin condition/etc was tested on animals first. Skin grafts, bone grafts, tissue implants, heart valve replacements are all tested on animals first. Dental work including bone implants, screws, socket replacement, etc is all tested on animals first. So unless you don't want any modern medical intervention in your life you can't avoid it.

I think it's easy to say "I think we shouldn't do it" if you don't understand the scope that animal testing encompasses. I know from my standpoint you can not develop a bio-implant without animal testing.

 

[JASMAK]

I'm against it. I work in the Diabetes division at a university where researchers test baboons and mice. Of course, they're doing what they have to do to find a cure for diabetes, but at the same time they're killing these poor animals after they're done with them because they don't need them anymore. To kill mice they just break their necks (they're supposed to inject them with something that will stop their hearts, but supposedly the mice die a lot faster if you break their necks and they don't know they're going to die so it's 'humane'). Plus with the baboons they just kill them, it's really sad. I feel horrible that they do it - but I'm torn because they're trying to do something to help us humans. It's a really controversial topic, I don't know where I stand on it tbh.

Wow...that's tough. That would just break my heart seeing that.

 

[JASMAK]

I must admit though..I am a spider murderer.

 

[kiwimama]

Lol kiwimama my point exactly. It's not that I was inviting criticism of my past work but as you say people only think of mammals. As an undergrad when I did scanning electron microscopy which means 'fixing' (preserving tissue) in glutaldehyde I didn't get much guidance and wasn't told that such a thing is excruciatingly painful so when i chucked the worm in the solution I had to leave the room because the reaction was so upsetting. When I had to collect brains they were VERY well anaesthetised but they still flinched with each cut. Who knows how worms feel pain but they certainly do and why should we assume any animal doesn't? But we don't see activists releasing worms or fish out to the sea. People only have empathy for animals they know. The movement is not fair or equal.

I read awhile ago that the PETA group were trying to get people to rename fish as sea kittens?!? So that people would have more empathy towards them. https://features.peta.org/PETASeaKittens/about.asp That group is a bit nuts to say the least..

I think, in the long run, it's just impossible to avoid every product/technique that was developed through animal testing. Yes, you can avoid shampoos and cosmetics that were created from animal testing by just looking at the labels.

However, in the medical field it's just impossible. That surgical technique that was performed? The surgeon practiced on dead animals and then cadavers before perfecting it. The drug you're taking for your head ache/blood pressure/skin condition/etc was tested on animals first. Skin grafts, bone grafts, tissue implants, heart valve replacements are all tested on animals first. Dental work including bone implants, screws, socket replacement, etc is all tested on animals first. So unless you don't want any modern medical intervention in your life you can't avoid it.

I think it's easy to say "I think we shouldn't do it" if you don't understand the scope that animal testing encompasses. I know from my standpoint you can not develop a bio-implant without animal testing.

I am wondering, if a product claims to be "not tested on animals", does that mean every single ingredient in it, has to have never, even in the past, been tested on animals? Or does it just mean, as a whole, the product has not been tested on animals?

Oh and also agree with every single thing you said, it's unfortunate, but each of us use plenty of products tested on animals every single day, even if you try your best to avoid it.

 

[PeanutBean]

Kiwimama I think it must depend on the law. In the UK the individual ingredients are also not to be animal tested however it would be silly for no ingredients that in the past have been tested on animals to included. If we already have knowledge about those ingredients then it makes sense to use that. It would be impossible to not include anything that has ever been tested on animals. But the cosmetic companies wouldn't be allowed to develop some new compound now and test of animals then include in a product for the UK that as a whole wasn't tested that way.

Lol at sea kittens. WTF?!

 

[SKATERBUN]

What really distresses me is that there is a big trade in capturing wild monkeys across Asia to be used in the UK for breeding offspring to be used in medical science.
I thought this had ended, apparently because the poverty stricken people in these countries are paid buckets of money to capture them they of course do it more and more and the competition is high to see who can get the most monkeys.
So not only are the animals being put through the severe distress of being captured and crated for shipping they are then going to be shoved in a a cage at the other end for god knows what. Then there of course is the depleting monkey population in the wild

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-s...reed-babies-for-uk-lab-tests-115875-22604097/

 

[fantastica]

Not read the whole thread because I always end up angry when I read debates like his haha, so will just leave a quote instead:

'If non-human animals are so different from us, then to use them for testing our drugs is stupid. If they are so like us, it is wicked.'

 

[amygwen]

I'm against it. I work in the Diabetes division at a university where researchers test baboons and mice. Of course, they're doing what they have to do to find a cure for diabetes, but at the same time they're killing these poor animals after they're done with them because they don't need them anymore. To kill mice they just break their necks (they're supposed to inject them with something that will stop their hearts, but supposedly the mice die a lot faster if you break their necks and they don't know they're going to die so it's 'humane'). Plus with the baboons they just kill them, it's really sad. I feel horrible that they do it - but I'm torn because they're trying to do something to help us humans. It's a really controversial topic, I don't know where I stand on it tbh.

Wow...that's tough. That would just break my heart seeing that.

I know, it's really sad. It's like these mice (which are gross anyways) are like running around so happily in these cages and then like they keep them for a week and kill them. It's awful.

 

[Midnight_Fairy]

Not read the whole thread because I always end up angry when I read debates like his haha, so will just leave a quote instead:

'If non-human animals are so different from us, then to use them for testing our drugs is stupid. If they are so like us, it is wicked.'

 

[NuKe]

I think it's completely stupid and pointless. torturing animals??? come on now, we are supposed to be a civilised society! how can we POSSIBLY expect to get the same reaction in say a bunny as we wud in a human??? if pennicillin had been tested on guinea pigs we wud never have had it as it kills them. there have been SOOOOOOO many drugs that have been tested on animals, deemed safe and then caused adverse effects on humans.

 

[NuKe]

this thread actually reminds me of something my oh did a couple of years back... we went for a tour in a university wer a friend was going (in philadelphia) and we went into the lab and there wer loads of rats in cages. we wer leaving and i noticed he was acting weird, then saw his hand up his jumper. i said "you stole a rat!" that was Freddy and sadly he died a couple of months later but he had a great happy last couple of months!

 

[LadyofRohan]

I think it's completely stupid and pointless. torturing animals??? come on now, we are supposed to be a civilised society! how can we POSSIBLY expect to get the same reaction in say a bunny as we wud in a human??? if pennicillin had been tested on guinea pigs we wud never have had it as it kills them. there have been SOOOOOOO many drugs that have been tested on animals, deemed safe and then caused adverse effects on humans.

But there are so many drugs that were tested on animals and didn't cause any adverse reactions in humans and are used every day across the world.

Vascular and immunological reactions in rabbits and rats are actually very similar to those in humans (again, I'm speaking from a bio-implants point of view....I don't have any experience with drug testing). There are strains of rabbits and rats that were created especially for these types of testing.

If you are so adverse to animal testing then just avoid all modern medical intervention.....we wouldn't (medically) be where we are without animal testing. Doing it all on human volunteers is simply not feasible.

There are many people who just say "it's horrible and it's animal abuse" but still reap the medical benefits that are a result of animal testing. It seems hypocritical to me.