GossipGirly
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Thanks, she gets weighed tomorrow so at least I'll find out if she is getting enough c
Get your own personal BnB BF Champion and one-on-one BF support here!
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StonesWife
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I could use a bit of advice...
How can I begin to incorporate pumping- both to up my supply (seems my LO isn't satisfied like she used to be... She used to go 2-3 hours between feeds now its almost every hour) and because I'll need to start stashing for when I return to work...
Do I pump after feeding? Before? A couple hours after LO eats? I'm just not sure how to fit it in...
I have a double electric Avent pump. Any advice would be great!
How can I begin to incorporate pumping- both to up my supply (seems my LO isn't satisfied like she used to be... She used to go 2-3 hours between feeds now its almost every hour) and because I'll need to start stashing for when I return to work...
Do I pump after feeding? Before? A couple hours after LO eats? I'm just not sure how to fit it in...
I have a double electric Avent pump. Any advice would be great!
The increased feedings are probably a slightly early 3 week growth spurt - should pass soon x
Pumping wise - does your LO have both breasts during a feed? If so, pump after LO feeds. You might not get much to start with, but it will increase after a few days. You could also add an extra pumping session - usually around 2 hours after LO last fed (best to do when LO is having a longish stretch of sleep- hard to predict when they are young though!)
If LO only takes one breast during a feed, you can pump the other breast, and LO feeding at the same time really helps.
Try to take it slowly though. Pumping tells your body that your baby requires more milk - so it makes more. It can then mean your milk cones too fast for LO to handle, or if you miss a few pumpings you can risk mastitis. If you increase slowly though, you shouldn't have any problems.
Also, remember that what you pump bears no relation to what LO gets during a feed. They are much better at it than the best or most expensive pump! So don't be disheartened if you only get an oz each time to start with. Anything you pump in 24 hours can be stored in the same container and refrigerated or frozen.
Hope that helps!
Sue Dunhym
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Just wanted to say thank you to the Breastfeeding Champions, particularly CocoaOne, in this thread - the advice given here is often really good. It's appreciated even by those who didn't ask the questions!
GossipGirly
1 DD (2) 1DS (1) and PG
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I agree sue...ok, so baby gained 7oz in a week! so I must have been doing something right but now im expressing with tt electric breast pump for a night time feed and can only seem to get drops got less than half an ounce in 45 mins, is this my milk hindering cos of shields? and past couple of days she just never seems full and when she is awake always wanting to eat xx
TigerLady
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If she is gaining weight (and that weight gain she had is wonderful! 
) and wetting the right number of nappies, there really is no need to worry. Always wanting to feed when they are awake is normal for that age. If her appetite is more than usual, that is normal, too. She could be getting ready to go into a growth spurt and wants to feed more as a result. 2 weeks is a little young for the first one (usually at 3 weeks) but not unheard of. Both my kids had their first marathon feeds for spurts at or before 2 weeks. 
They were also fast gainers... about 1-1.5 oz per day (like your girl did).
If she is eating more, then you wouldn't be able to pump as much between feeds. Give your body a few days to catch up. Once she is adjusted and you are producing more milk, you'll be able to pump better again.
If you are really worried, you can try Fenugreek. It won't hurt and might help.
) and wetting the right number of nappies, there really is no need to worry. Always wanting to feed when they are awake is normal for that age. If her appetite is more than usual, that is normal, too. She could be getting ready to go into a growth spurt and wants to feed more as a result. 2 weeks is a little young for the first one (usually at 3 weeks) but not unheard of. Both my kids had their first marathon feeds for spurts at or before 2 weeks. They were also fast gainers... about 1-1.5 oz per day (like your girl did). If she is eating more, then you wouldn't be able to pump as much between feeds. Give your body a few days to catch up. Once she is adjusted and you are producing more milk, you'll be able to pump better again.
If you are really worried, you can try Fenugreek. It won't hurt and might help.
GossipGirly
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oo thanks for the advice and the tip xx
zozo123
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Hi,
My wifes been breastfeeding our baby girl for 9 weeks now but its been a bit of a struggle and still seems to be a long way off a settled routine. Shes finding it frustrating and tiring and I dont think Im being much help.
When DD was 3 days old we had to take her back into hospital as shed lost over 12% of her birth weight. The paediatrician told mum she had to bf then top up with 80ml of ebm/formula, every three hours. Looking back, and at the time, this seemed excessive and counterproductive, but we did it and now are where we are. Initially the top-ups were mostly formula but the breast milk supply gradually increased. Since then shes been trying to get to fully breastfeeding.
There have been cycles of a good few days then a bad few days. On the good few days she breastfeeds every three hours and needs none, or only an ounce or two of formula, a bad few days she needs four or five oz twice or three times. Weve had many false dawns. There are feelings of inadequacy because of having to give the formula and conflicting guilt at the baby being left hungry when theres not enough milk to satisfy her.
OH always offers the breast first but lacks confidence that theres always enough there. LO has a habit of falling asleep at the breast only to wake up hungry a few minutes later. OH got a questionnaire about breastfeeding recently, one of the questions was Were you given advice on how to tell whether your babys getting enough milk? to which she replied I dont even know now! LO never spits out the nipple and lolls like a drunk after a feed, as the textbooks say she should. She just seems to doze off and, if were lucky, sleeps for a couple of hours. Otherwise its the same again soon after. Don't know whether she's full or just exhausted. Plus OH still frequently complains of sore nipples. Not sure if its from the amount of time she spends on the breast or a bad latch. Everyone (midwives, HVs etc) whove seen the feeding say its ok.
Were so uncertain and dont know where to turn in the face of so much, often conflicting advice from grandparents, friends, the internet For example, one of my aunts is a HV and advised us to give baby as much formula as she wants after each bf, our own HV advised us to just cut off the formula altogether to increase demand on the breasts. Weve been muddling along between the two. Were pretty much on our own family-wise and my wifes quite self-contained and doesnt get out to support groups or seek help much.
The only reassuring thing is that the LOs weights been increasing well, so thats always at the back of our mind, but its the lack of any kind of routine from day to day thats really enervating at the moment. LO has the delightful habit of being insatiable between 7-11 pm, just when a little respite would be most appreciated, its impossible to get her to sleep, she feeds till my wife gives up, continues to show hunger signs then guzzles a bottle and still doesn't give up. I understand this is called cluster feeding, but we're reluctant to give her as much formula as she demands (she once took 7 oz and was after more!) because of the effect on the bm supply, so it's exhausting trying to stop her screaming the place down. At 11 she goes out like a light and (thankfully) only wakes up once or twice during the night when a bf seems to be enough for her.
Its starting to wear us down and is (ever so) slightly ruining our enjoyment of the little monster. Neither of us wants to give up on breastfeeding but I feel sometimes OHs on the brink and I feel bad about pressuring her to carry on when neither of them seems to be enjoying it much! I (and maybe OH, I don't raise the subject for fear of discouraging her) feel quite selfish ideologically clinging to bf sometimes when it seems like the LO is starving.
Obviously, Im speaking for my wife here, and this post is more to get things off my own chest than represent her feelings. I dont really have any specific questions apart from if somebody can shed some light on the bf behaviours described above. Another thing is does breast milk supply vary from feed to feed or day to day? If so, how?
~Thanks
My wifes been breastfeeding our baby girl for 9 weeks now but its been a bit of a struggle and still seems to be a long way off a settled routine. Shes finding it frustrating and tiring and I dont think Im being much help.
When DD was 3 days old we had to take her back into hospital as shed lost over 12% of her birth weight. The paediatrician told mum she had to bf then top up with 80ml of ebm/formula, every three hours. Looking back, and at the time, this seemed excessive and counterproductive, but we did it and now are where we are. Initially the top-ups were mostly formula but the breast milk supply gradually increased. Since then shes been trying to get to fully breastfeeding.
There have been cycles of a good few days then a bad few days. On the good few days she breastfeeds every three hours and needs none, or only an ounce or two of formula, a bad few days she needs four or five oz twice or three times. Weve had many false dawns. There are feelings of inadequacy because of having to give the formula and conflicting guilt at the baby being left hungry when theres not enough milk to satisfy her.
OH always offers the breast first but lacks confidence that theres always enough there. LO has a habit of falling asleep at the breast only to wake up hungry a few minutes later. OH got a questionnaire about breastfeeding recently, one of the questions was Were you given advice on how to tell whether your babys getting enough milk? to which she replied I dont even know now! LO never spits out the nipple and lolls like a drunk after a feed, as the textbooks say she should. She just seems to doze off and, if were lucky, sleeps for a couple of hours. Otherwise its the same again soon after. Don't know whether she's full or just exhausted. Plus OH still frequently complains of sore nipples. Not sure if its from the amount of time she spends on the breast or a bad latch. Everyone (midwives, HVs etc) whove seen the feeding say its ok.
Were so uncertain and dont know where to turn in the face of so much, often conflicting advice from grandparents, friends, the internet For example, one of my aunts is a HV and advised us to give baby as much formula as she wants after each bf, our own HV advised us to just cut off the formula altogether to increase demand on the breasts. Weve been muddling along between the two. Were pretty much on our own family-wise and my wifes quite self-contained and doesnt get out to support groups or seek help much.
The only reassuring thing is that the LOs weights been increasing well, so thats always at the back of our mind, but its the lack of any kind of routine from day to day thats really enervating at the moment. LO has the delightful habit of being insatiable between 7-11 pm, just when a little respite would be most appreciated, its impossible to get her to sleep, she feeds till my wife gives up, continues to show hunger signs then guzzles a bottle and still doesn't give up. I understand this is called cluster feeding, but we're reluctant to give her as much formula as she demands (she once took 7 oz and was after more!) because of the effect on the bm supply, so it's exhausting trying to stop her screaming the place down. At 11 she goes out like a light and (thankfully) only wakes up once or twice during the night when a bf seems to be enough for her.
Its starting to wear us down and is (ever so) slightly ruining our enjoyment of the little monster. Neither of us wants to give up on breastfeeding but I feel sometimes OHs on the brink and I feel bad about pressuring her to carry on when neither of them seems to be enjoying it much! I (and maybe OH, I don't raise the subject for fear of discouraging her) feel quite selfish ideologically clinging to bf sometimes when it seems like the LO is starving.
Obviously, Im speaking for my wife here, and this post is more to get things off my own chest than represent her feelings. I dont really have any specific questions apart from if somebody can shed some light on the bf behaviours described above. Another thing is does breast milk supply vary from feed to feed or day to day? If so, how?
~Thanks
Firstly - well done to you both for persavering through all of that! I sometimes think that the stress and worry of BF is worse than any of the physical problems you can get!
Basically - the best way to tell if LO is getting enough is that they have 6-8 wet nappies a day, and the fact that she's now gaining weight is great.
If your wife is still suffering with sore nipples: there could be a problem with the latch. Has LO been checked for Tongue-tie? That's another possibility (it can cause pain and loooong feeds, as well as a constantly hungry baby)
With regards to routine - what you've described is quite normal. I don't think my LO fell into more of a routine until around 4 months, that's when they start being more alert and sleeping less in the day.
Milk supply doesn't change in the day, your wife's body produces most of the feeds milk (80% I think) at the time LO feeds. BUT - milk flow changes - at night it can be slower, so LO may get sleepy waiting for the milk or get frustrated and act fussy. The fact that she's been used to bottles won't help, as they have to work much harder at the breast than with a bottle.
If you want to knock the formula on the head - you can try a couple of things. Offer the breast before the bottle, only offer an oz or so of formula, then offer the breast again. Your wife's milk supply will increase the more LO suckles, and LO might latch better if she's not hungry. Your wife could try taking fenugreek from a health food shop - it helps increase milk supply. Has she pumped milk? Pumping can also increase supply and you could give the expressed milk instead of formula - you can give LO the bottle while your wife expresses.
The problem with supplementing with formula is that your body doesn't know that LO is having that milk, and your body only produces the milk LO tells it that it needs (by sucking at the breast). So the more you supplement, the less your baby is at the breast, the less milk your body produces. It's a viscious circle!
If it helps - I didn't enjoy my LO for the first 4 months. Loved her, yes; but I didn't enjoy her. She was such hard work, never slept more than a couple of hours at a time in the night and was constantly whingey. It does get better, and it's only normal to feel that way - babies can be a lot of hard work for very little reward at the start, once they start to interact more it gets easier.
Just my random thoughts - I hope they make sense - massively sleep deprived today!
Basically - the best way to tell if LO is getting enough is that they have 6-8 wet nappies a day, and the fact that she's now gaining weight is great.
If your wife is still suffering with sore nipples: there could be a problem with the latch. Has LO been checked for Tongue-tie? That's another possibility (it can cause pain and loooong feeds, as well as a constantly hungry baby)
With regards to routine - what you've described is quite normal. I don't think my LO fell into more of a routine until around 4 months, that's when they start being more alert and sleeping less in the day.
Milk supply doesn't change in the day, your wife's body produces most of the feeds milk (80% I think) at the time LO feeds. BUT - milk flow changes - at night it can be slower, so LO may get sleepy waiting for the milk or get frustrated and act fussy. The fact that she's been used to bottles won't help, as they have to work much harder at the breast than with a bottle.
If you want to knock the formula on the head - you can try a couple of things. Offer the breast before the bottle, only offer an oz or so of formula, then offer the breast again. Your wife's milk supply will increase the more LO suckles, and LO might latch better if she's not hungry. Your wife could try taking fenugreek from a health food shop - it helps increase milk supply. Has she pumped milk? Pumping can also increase supply and you could give the expressed milk instead of formula - you can give LO the bottle while your wife expresses.
The problem with supplementing with formula is that your body doesn't know that LO is having that milk, and your body only produces the milk LO tells it that it needs (by sucking at the breast). So the more you supplement, the less your baby is at the breast, the less milk your body produces. It's a viscious circle!
If it helps - I didn't enjoy my LO for the first 4 months. Loved her, yes; but I didn't enjoy her. She was such hard work, never slept more than a couple of hours at a time in the night and was constantly whingey. It does get better, and it's only normal to feel that way - babies can be a lot of hard work for very little reward at the start, once they start to interact more it gets easier.
Just my random thoughts - I hope they make sense - massively sleep deprived today!
veganmum2be
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i too agree the advice here is brilliant, and much much appreciated.
i came here to ask a few questions, but they have all been answered just by reading whats on this page!
x
i came here to ask a few questions, but they have all been answered just by reading whats on this page!
x
TigerLady
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Zozo, I admire you for seeking help here for your family.
My advice would be to drop the formula completely -- now. Then your wife will need to let your daughter suck as much, as long, and as often as she wants for at least 3 days. That will be exhausting, but it will increase your wife's supply to meet baby's needs and formula will no longer be needed. Formula really is the worst enemy of someone trying to exclusively breastfeed.
As for the evening feeds, you are right, it is cluster feeding and normal. It is what gears them up for night. Unfortunately, there is no way around it.
My best advice is to get comfy on the couch, watch some TV or a movie, keep baby close and just feed throughout the evening. That is what I have done with both my babies. I even let baby sleep in my arms for short naps before she wakes and wants fed again. Then we go to bed when the cluster feeding is over.
I think it is awful that you got bad advice in the beginning.
Honestly, BF babies are expected to loose up to 15% of their body weight - I've seen as much as 20%. As long as they aren't underweight to begin with, this isn't a problem. You should never have been told to "top up". I've seen more people have problems cutting out the formula after following that advice in early days.
BFing is a big commitment. There is no doubt about that. When done the best way, there is no routine, it is all feed on demand. That demand can often be frequent and exhausting. Especially during growth spurts. I can't count the number of times I have looked at both my children and said " You can't possibly want to eat again already!!"
But it is very worth it in the end.
The important part is for your wife to gain confidence in herself and her body. She needs to learn to trust her mommy instincts and feed the baby when she knows the baby wants fed. Regardless of when the last feed was -- 3 hours or 30 minutes ago. Stop clock watching. I can't even tell you how often my DD feeds.
I don't pay attention to the clock. I just feed her when she wants fed.
As long as you are getting at least 6 wet nappies and baby is gaining weight over the course of a month (don't worry about week to week), then you are doing fine.
Speaking of -- I have a baby that is crying and wants fed... must go!
My advice would be to drop the formula completely -- now. Then your wife will need to let your daughter suck as much, as long, and as often as she wants for at least 3 days. That will be exhausting, but it will increase your wife's supply to meet baby's needs and formula will no longer be needed. Formula really is the worst enemy of someone trying to exclusively breastfeed.
As for the evening feeds, you are right, it is cluster feeding and normal. It is what gears them up for night. Unfortunately, there is no way around it.
My best advice is to get comfy on the couch, watch some TV or a movie, keep baby close and just feed throughout the evening. That is what I have done with both my babies. I even let baby sleep in my arms for short naps before she wakes and wants fed again. Then we go to bed when the cluster feeding is over. I think it is awful that you got bad advice in the beginning.
Honestly, BF babies are expected to loose up to 15% of their body weight - I've seen as much as 20%. As long as they aren't underweight to begin with, this isn't a problem. You should never have been told to "top up". I've seen more people have problems cutting out the formula after following that advice in early days. BFing is a big commitment. There is no doubt about that. When done the best way, there is no routine, it is all feed on demand. That demand can often be frequent and exhausting. Especially during growth spurts. I can't count the number of times I have looked at both my children and said " You can't possibly want to eat again already!!"
But it is very worth it in the end. The important part is for your wife to gain confidence in herself and her body. She needs to learn to trust her mommy instincts and feed the baby when she knows the baby wants fed. Regardless of when the last feed was -- 3 hours or 30 minutes ago. Stop clock watching. I can't even tell you how often my DD feeds.
I don't pay attention to the clock. I just feed her when she wants fed. As long as you are getting at least 6 wet nappies and baby is gaining weight over the course of a month (don't worry about week to week), then you are doing fine.
Speaking of -- I have a baby that is crying and wants fed... must go!
pinkclaire
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I wanted to say that I totally agree with what cocoa and tigerlady have said.
Cut the formula, your LO wil feed more often for a few days but if she's gaining weight suitably it will be fine. As for routine, unfortunately it's just something you both have to get your head around, there is not much of one at this stage. This was the hardest part for me as I'm so used to having complete control of everything! Our LO got in a routine about 6 months.
There's lots of things you can do to help (I'm sure your doing most already!) be there to listen when she wants to get it off her chest. My hubby thinks I want a solution all the time but actually I just wanted him to listen. It's imperative she looks after herself to keep her milk supply up. So ensure she has 3 good meals, water and a snack at every feed. She also needs to get as much rest as she can. My hubby used to get up with my LO after his first feed of the day as he used to be quite settled then and it meant I could have an hour - 2 in the morning. Just a few ideas of the thinngs that helped me! Xx
Cut the formula, your LO wil feed more often for a few days but if she's gaining weight suitably it will be fine. As for routine, unfortunately it's just something you both have to get your head around, there is not much of one at this stage. This was the hardest part for me as I'm so used to having complete control of everything! Our LO got in a routine about 6 months.
There's lots of things you can do to help (I'm sure your doing most already!) be there to listen when she wants to get it off her chest. My hubby thinks I want a solution all the time but actually I just wanted him to listen. It's imperative she looks after herself to keep her milk supply up. So ensure she has 3 good meals, water and a snack at every feed. She also needs to get as much rest as she can. My hubby used to get up with my LO after his first feed of the day as he used to be quite settled then and it meant I could have an hour - 2 in the morning. Just a few ideas of the thinngs that helped me! Xx
zozo123
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Thanks CocoaOne and TigerLady for taking the time to post such detailed replies.
Perhaps we are still giving the formula too readily but we do try to keep it as a last resort. My wife generally feeds both sides at each bf, sometimes twice over. When LO's hungry again soon after it's pretty demoralising. We have tried to completely cut out the formula before, letting her feed as often as she liked for a few days and it certainly helped us drastically reduce it. I recall one 'fun' Saturday morning when baby was feeding for 5 hours straight!
Will def look into fenugreek is that the fresh leaves? Or does it come in pill form? We have the seeds in the spice rack would they do anything? OH did used to pump but as baby fed so frequently and hardly slept in between, found it hard to fit it in gave it up in favour of getting some rest herself. LOs been checked for tongue tie, no problem there.
As I said weve been told the latch is ok, but I forget to mention in prev post she does twist and drag on the nipple sometimes, like shes uncomfortable or frustrated? Could that be due to slow milk flow? Shes quite a big baby and OH does find it difficult to position her comfortably, sometimes LOs chin is down towards her chest and sometimes her heads turned towards one shoulder.
Like I said we have good spells and bad ones. Reading your replies certainly made us feel better though! Shes doing the right number of nappies and the weight is creeping up. I now honestly think the supplys probably there but it is mainly a confidence thing. It feels like sometimes baby and mum are out of sync, hence my question about variation of milk supply.
I do really wish wed stuck it out in the beginning. The local policy seemed to be over 10% loss and we had to go back to the hospital, where they told us to give formula. Even the midwife who sent us back to the hospital in the first place said she was shocked they made us do that. She was a big healthy baby (9lb 7oz) but they didnt seem to take that into consideration and just told us to give the feeds based on her weight. I could be angry about it now, but we can only blame ourselves as we were pretty clueless first-time parents and just went along with what the docs said. Should have done our research really.
Perhaps we are still giving the formula too readily but we do try to keep it as a last resort. My wife generally feeds both sides at each bf, sometimes twice over. When LO's hungry again soon after it's pretty demoralising. We have tried to completely cut out the formula before, letting her feed as often as she liked for a few days and it certainly helped us drastically reduce it. I recall one 'fun' Saturday morning when baby was feeding for 5 hours straight!
Will def look into fenugreek is that the fresh leaves? Or does it come in pill form? We have the seeds in the spice rack would they do anything? OH did used to pump but as baby fed so frequently and hardly slept in between, found it hard to fit it in gave it up in favour of getting some rest herself. LOs been checked for tongue tie, no problem there.
As I said weve been told the latch is ok, but I forget to mention in prev post she does twist and drag on the nipple sometimes, like shes uncomfortable or frustrated? Could that be due to slow milk flow? Shes quite a big baby and OH does find it difficult to position her comfortably, sometimes LOs chin is down towards her chest and sometimes her heads turned towards one shoulder.
Like I said we have good spells and bad ones. Reading your replies certainly made us feel better though! Shes doing the right number of nappies and the weight is creeping up. I now honestly think the supplys probably there but it is mainly a confidence thing. It feels like sometimes baby and mum are out of sync, hence my question about variation of milk supply.
I do really wish wed stuck it out in the beginning. The local policy seemed to be over 10% loss and we had to go back to the hospital, where they told us to give formula. Even the midwife who sent us back to the hospital in the first place said she was shocked they made us do that. She was a big healthy baby (9lb 7oz) but they didnt seem to take that into consideration and just told us to give the feeds based on her weight. I could be angry about it now, but we can only blame ourselves as we were pretty clueless first-time parents and just went along with what the docs said. Should have done our research really.
PreggyEggy
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Thanks for the advice you guys, this thread is invaluable!
I'm in desperate need of help. This week I've been working on giving up shields, and I thought it was going relatively well, despite me having mastitis. But the last 3 days have been awful...my nipples are sore again, both my boobs really hurt, and I've been trying my hardest to correct her latch, but it's just not working.
I'm doing everything I've been told to do. I've been following the directions for getting her to latch to a T, and as far as I'm concerned, I'm doing as much as I can. She looks like she's on right, and sometimes it doesn't hurt and she gets a good feed, but most of the time she gets frustrated and pulls off, or sucks for ages with no swallowing. I know there is milk there, I can squeeze it out myself, but she just can't get to it.
Tonight, everything has really fallen apart. I tried for 3 hours to feed her, she's been upset and rooting all day. It's different to before, you could really tell that she was desperate. I've never heard her cry like that. I didn't know what to do, since I've dropped the shields she won't take them, so they wouldn't help either, and expressing gave me very little. Eventually, she just started screaming and pulling away every time I tried to put her on the breast.
I caved, and in desperation, I gave her formula. I feel so awful, like I've tried so hard for nothing. She still seems a bit miserable, but at least she's not desperately screaming anymore.
I feel like I'm right back at square one, all the progress I made with the shields is just gone. I'm going to try to express for her feeds tonight, and get help first thing in the morning, but I'm starting to think this is it, I'm never going to get this right.
I guess I just want someone to pat me on the back and tell me it'll work out, and I'll still be able to feed her. I'd gladly suffer a million cracked nipples and mastitis over and over again if it meant I could feed her and she'd be satisfied.
I'm in desperate need of help.
This week I've been working on giving up shields, and I thought it was going relatively well, despite me having mastitis. But the last 3 days have been awful...my nipples are sore again, both my boobs really hurt, and I've been trying my hardest to correct her latch, but it's just not working.I'm doing everything I've been told to do. I've been following the directions for getting her to latch to a T, and as far as I'm concerned, I'm doing as much as I can. She looks like she's on right, and sometimes it doesn't hurt and she gets a good feed, but most of the time she gets frustrated and pulls off, or sucks for ages with no swallowing. I know there is milk there, I can squeeze it out myself, but she just can't get to it.
Tonight, everything has really fallen apart. I tried for 3 hours to feed her, she's been upset and rooting all day. It's different to before, you could really tell that she was desperate. I've never heard her cry like that.
I didn't know what to do, since I've dropped the shields she won't take them, so they wouldn't help either, and expressing gave me very little. Eventually, she just started screaming and pulling away every time I tried to put her on the breast.I caved, and in desperation, I gave her formula.
I feel so awful, like I've tried so hard for nothing. She still seems a bit miserable, but at least she's not desperately screaming anymore.I feel like I'm right back at square one, all the progress I made with the shields is just gone. I'm going to try to express for her feeds tonight, and get help first thing in the morning, but I'm starting to think this is it, I'm never going to get this right.
I guess I just want someone to pat me on the back and tell me it'll work out, and I'll still be able to feed her. I'd gladly suffer a million cracked nipples and mastitis over and over again if it meant I could feed her and she'd be satisfied.PreggyEggy - 
Don't feel bad hun. I gave LO a few bottles of formula in the early days when she was suffering so bad from wind - I was convinced that something in my milk disagreed with her. We all just want the beat for our babies, and it's horrible seeing them suffer.
Keep persavering. She's angry and confused because she's having to work much harder to get the milk out than she has before. Try feeding her before she's showing definite hunger cues, and maybe try feeding lying down in a dimly lit room with some music on that you find calming. Stress will make your milk slow even flower so try to be as calm as possible. It's also worth trying to feed as she gets sleepy as they instinctively suck and don't try to hard, if that makes sense?
Have you got a surestart centre which offers a breastfeeding support group? If so - go and get someone to watch you feed. Sometimes there's one tiny thing that might be hindering LO. Have you tried different holds to see if that helps (like the football/rugby hold)?
Could she also be going through the 3 week growth spurt? That can cause them to feed constantly and act very fussy. If so, just keep offering the breast (even if she doesn't take it), lots of skin to skin contact and take a warm bath together (it should help your milk flow a bit better)
Zozo - you can use the stuff in your cupboard to make tea (google for instructions) or you can buy pills. Introduce it slowly though as it can cause wind if given too much straight away.
Latch wise - try some different positions, lying down etc. Also, LOs head shouldn't really be turned to the side - try turning your head to the left and opening your mouth really wide.... Not very comfy is it? Try getting your wife to rotate baby towards her more, so LOs belly is basically flat against your wife's belly/lower chest - LOs cheek/ear should be resting on your wife's arm, not LOs neck/back of head. Does that make sense? I'm not great at explaining in written words! That way, LOs head can tip back easier so their chin isn't against the chest.
And don't blame yourself - we all trust health professionals advice and opinions. Unfortunately, many haven't had adequate training. You're doing an amazing job by seeking out more information x
Don't feel bad hun. I gave LO a few bottles of formula in the early days when she was suffering so bad from wind - I was convinced that something in my milk disagreed with her. We all just want the beat for our babies, and it's horrible seeing them suffer. Keep persavering. She's angry and confused because she's having to work much harder to get the milk out than she has before. Try feeding her before she's showing definite hunger cues, and maybe try feeding lying down in a dimly lit room with some music on that you find calming. Stress will make your milk slow even flower so try to be as calm as possible. It's also worth trying to feed as she gets sleepy as they instinctively suck and don't try to hard, if that makes sense?
Have you got a surestart centre which offers a breastfeeding support group? If so - go and get someone to watch you feed. Sometimes there's one tiny thing that might be hindering LO. Have you tried different holds to see if that helps (like the football/rugby hold)?
Could she also be going through the 3 week growth spurt? That can cause them to feed constantly and act very fussy. If so, just keep offering the breast (even if she doesn't take it), lots of skin to skin contact and take a warm bath together (it should help your milk flow a bit better)
Zozo - you can use the stuff in your cupboard to make tea (google for instructions) or you can buy pills. Introduce it slowly though as it can cause wind if given too much straight away.
Latch wise - try some different positions, lying down etc. Also, LOs head shouldn't really be turned to the side - try turning your head to the left and opening your mouth really wide.... Not very comfy is it? Try getting your wife to rotate baby towards her more, so LOs belly is basically flat against your wife's belly/lower chest - LOs cheek/ear should be resting on your wife's arm, not LOs neck/back of head. Does that make sense? I'm not great at explaining in written words! That way, LOs head can tip back easier so their chin isn't against the chest.
And don't blame yourself - we all trust health professionals advice and opinions. Unfortunately, many haven't had adequate training. You're doing an amazing job by seeking out more information x
TigerLady
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PE --
I have very little advice regarding the nipple shields as I have no experience with them. However, it sounds like you are doing everything you can! It sounds like an exhausting and gut wrenching situation. Please trust that you are doing everything right -- even down to giving the formula. Don't beat yourself up. You are only trying to do what is needed for your baby and she needs to be fed.
I agree with CO that she is probably just frustrated at having to work so hard for the milk. When I got pg and was still EBF my DS, my let down took ages and my supply dropped a bit. We went through a few very difficult weeks of frustration until he adjusted to it. He was always (still is with solids) very serious about his food and wanted lots of it. He would also get VERY frustrated at the boob during growth spurts. He would squirm and scream and even punch, yes PUNCH, my boobs in frustration when the flow got too slow. My DH used to encourage me to give him a bottle. This was always my answer:
He has to work it out at the boob!
I always stuck by that it and it was probably one of the smartest things I ever did. No matter how frustrated he got, I just kept offering him the breast. Eventually (hours, days, weeks) he would always settle down. But I remember more than once, clearly, sitting on the couch with a screaming, squriming, hungry baby in my arms, trying to get him to latch and stay latched to a slow flow. It was hard. You can do it... I know you can!
ZOZO--
Please don't beat yourself up for listening to the docs. Of course that is what you did! From the sounds of it, this is more a confidence issue than anything else. Your wife just doesn't know to trust her body and what it will supply yet. That confidence is hard to learn in the beginning (meaning for the first 6 months!) Everytime my DS went through a growth spurt, I was worried he wasn't getting enough (see above for description of what he would do.) But, in the end, my body always caught up and supplied him with what he needed.
I firmly believe that the only way your wife will gain that confidence is to cut out the formula. Just bite the bullet and do it. In a couple of weeks, she will see that your baby will have gained weight without formula and that will start to build her confidence.
As for twisting the nipple, the frustated guess would also be my guess. Especially if it is toward the end of a feed. The flow slows down and babies that are partly bottle fed can get very frustrated by that (it doesn't happen with a bottle). That is what is called "nipple confusion." Nipple confusion isn't that they are confused about how to get milk out of one kind of nipple -- it is that they get frustrated by the slower flow and harder work of a breast and "want" the bottle. That would be another reason to cut out the bottles of formula. It will elminate the nipple confusion.
Also make sure baby is positioned properly in whatever hold your wife uses:
This is a good cradle hold: See how the baby is tummy to tummy, spine straight. They shouldn't have to turn their head to access the nipple. They should actually be laying on one arm/shoulder, not their back. So totally on their side.
https://www.smartparenting.com.ph/images/site-alpha/articles/child-care/breastfeeding/breastfeeding_basics/6_breastfeeding_positions/Picture1_BIG.jpg
This is a good cross-cradle: The baby is positioned the same as the cradle, but up against mom's side (opposite to the breast that is being offered) a bit more. And mom's arms are positioned differently to hold baby. This one often works well for women who have larger breasts.
https://www.womenshealth.gov/breastfeeding/images/box-cross-cradle-hold.gif
This is a good football/rugby hold: Have the baby supported on pillows or a nursing cushion. Again, the baby is on it's side and the spine is straight.
This is a good side by side: Again, baby is on it's side and straight. This one is harder to master for most women and takes practice. Baby usually needs elevated a little to get a good latch. I found with my DD that swaddling her tight helps her side-by-side nursing position. Ladies with larger breasts often find they need to position baby's head on their arm (not sure exactly how this works as I have only seen it described, it is not a problem I have.
)
https://www.lpch.org/media/images/conditions/ei_0006.jpg
This is good of the cross-cradle using a nursing pillow:
https://images.meredith.com/ab/images/2007/12/m_101138718.jpg
Remember, good positioning is key. It will make everything easier and more comfortable for mom and baby. Some babies are more picky about position, too. For example, my DS could nurse well even when positioning was very "sloppy." My DD is not that way. She gets a bad latch, pops off, and/or gets frustrated at the slightest shift in position. She will also have a bad latch and get frustrated if the position isn't just right for her. And only a teeny tiny shift in direction of my or her body will throw her off. Have your wife experiment with tiny little shifts and see if anything helps.
As for Fenugreek, I take it in pill form. Just do the research to make sure she takes enough everyday. I found it took about a week to up my supply, other women it works for almost instantly. I should say that I don't NEED it.. but take it so that my supply stays MORE than what my 2 kids eat per day. I pump and freeze the extra to build up a good freezer stash.
Come back if you have any other concerns!
I have very little advice regarding the nipple shields as I have no experience with them. However, it sounds like you are doing everything you can! It sounds like an exhausting and gut wrenching situation.
Please trust that you are doing everything right -- even down to giving the formula. Don't beat yourself up. You are only trying to do what is needed for your baby and she needs to be fed.I agree with CO that she is probably just frustrated at having to work so hard for the milk. When I got pg and was still EBF my DS, my let down took ages and my supply dropped a bit. We went through a few very difficult weeks of frustration until he adjusted to it. He was always (still is with solids) very serious about his food and wanted lots of it. He would also get VERY frustrated at the boob during growth spurts. He would squirm and scream and even punch, yes PUNCH, my boobs in frustration when the flow got too slow. My DH used to encourage me to give him a bottle. This was always my answer:
He has to work it out at the boob!
I always stuck by that it and it was probably one of the smartest things I ever did. No matter how frustrated he got, I just kept offering him the breast. Eventually (hours, days, weeks) he would always settle down. But I remember more than once, clearly, sitting on the couch with a screaming, squriming, hungry baby in my arms, trying to get him to latch and stay latched to a slow flow. It was hard. You can do it... I know you can!
ZOZO--
Please don't beat yourself up for listening to the docs. Of course that is what you did!
From the sounds of it, this is more a confidence issue than anything else. Your wife just doesn't know to trust her body and what it will supply yet. That confidence is hard to learn in the beginning (meaning for the first 6 months!) Everytime my DS went through a growth spurt, I was worried he wasn't getting enough (see above for description of what he would do.) But, in the end, my body always caught up and supplied him with what he needed. I firmly believe that the only way your wife will gain that confidence is to cut out the formula. Just bite the bullet and do it. In a couple of weeks, she will see that your baby will have gained weight without formula and that will start to build her confidence.
As for twisting the nipple, the frustated guess would also be my guess. Especially if it is toward the end of a feed. The flow slows down and babies that are partly bottle fed can get very frustrated by that (it doesn't happen with a bottle). That is what is called "nipple confusion." Nipple confusion isn't that they are confused about how to get milk out of one kind of nipple -- it is that they get frustrated by the slower flow and harder work of a breast and "want" the bottle. That would be another reason to cut out the bottles of formula. It will elminate the nipple confusion.
Also make sure baby is positioned properly in whatever hold your wife uses:
This is a good cradle hold: See how the baby is tummy to tummy, spine straight. They shouldn't have to turn their head to access the nipple. They should actually be laying on one arm/shoulder, not their back. So totally on their side.
https://www.smartparenting.com.ph/images/site-alpha/articles/child-care/breastfeeding/breastfeeding_basics/6_breastfeeding_positions/Picture1_BIG.jpg
This is a good cross-cradle: The baby is positioned the same as the cradle, but up against mom's side (opposite to the breast that is being offered) a bit more. And mom's arms are positioned differently to hold baby. This one often works well for women who have larger breasts.
https://www.womenshealth.gov/breastfeeding/images/box-cross-cradle-hold.gif
This is a good football/rugby hold: Have the baby supported on pillows or a nursing cushion. Again, the baby is on it's side and the spine is straight.
This is a good side by side: Again, baby is on it's side and straight. This one is harder to master for most women and takes practice. Baby usually needs elevated a little to get a good latch. I found with my DD that swaddling her tight helps her side-by-side nursing position. Ladies with larger breasts often find they need to position baby's head on their arm (not sure exactly how this works as I have only seen it described, it is not a problem I have.
)https://www.lpch.org/media/images/conditions/ei_0006.jpg
This is good of the cross-cradle using a nursing pillow:
https://images.meredith.com/ab/images/2007/12/m_101138718.jpg
Remember, good positioning is key. It will make everything easier and more comfortable for mom and baby. Some babies are more picky about position, too. For example, my DS could nurse well even when positioning was very "sloppy." My DD is not that way. She gets a bad latch, pops off, and/or gets frustrated at the slightest shift in position. She will also have a bad latch and get frustrated if the position isn't just right for her. And only a teeny tiny shift in direction of my or her body will throw her off. Have your wife experiment with tiny little shifts and see if anything helps.
As for Fenugreek, I take it in pill form. Just do the research to make sure she takes enough everyday. I found it took about a week to up my supply, other women it works for almost instantly. I should say that I don't NEED it.. but take it so that my supply stays MORE than what my 2 kids eat per day. I pump and freeze the extra to build up a good freezer stash.
Come back if you have any other concerns!
zozo123
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Thanks so much again for the replies! Mum sends her thanks as well! I'm so glad I found this site as reading the forums and your advice gives me the impression we're not that far off and the technique just needs some tweaking esp. re the latch.
LOs only had one formula feed in the past couple of days, though she is very fussy a lot of the time she's obviously getting milk and she's been doing poos which must be coming from somewhere right?
Next weighing is wed so we'll see where we are then.
LOs only had one formula feed in the past couple of days, though she is very fussy a lot of the time she's obviously getting milk and she's been doing poos which must be coming from somewhere right?
Next weighing is wed so we'll see where we are then.
PreggyEggy
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Thank you so much for your replies! I need all the support I can get at the moment, haha. I LOVE this thread!
I'm feeling much less guilty about the formula. At the end of the day, the priority is getting her fed and happy, and if I have to do it again I won't start thinking that it's the end of breastfeeding. She's 4 weeks old today, and I've put so much work into this...I find myself getting more and more determined not to waste it! I really want to make this work, and if it's a matter of just sticking it out then I'll do it.
At the moment, thanks to youtube, I've started doing this thing where I compress my boob when she's drinking to help her get more milk, and it seems to be working...I'm not seeing so much sucking for ages without swallowing, and feeds are taking less time. She's still a little fussy after feeds but it's nothing like it was. I'm still getting pain in my nipples with the majority of feeds though, but thankfully the antibiotics I'm on are working on the mastitis!
I also went to my local sure start centre yesterday, because they have a baby cafe.
They were lovely and gave me lots of support, and I got the number of a women from the La Lache League who said I can ring her anytime, and she's willing to come over and help. I'm taking Poppy home to Wales to see my family this week, so we're going go solider on, but if nothing has improved by the time I'm back, I'm going to ask her to come over and help me with positioning/latch.
I'm also going to take her to the baby clinic today and ask about tongue tie. There's a history of it on my husband's side, and I'm convinced the problem is with her sucking, and not positioning. I've had a look, and there's no obvious problem with her tongue to me...but if there's a family history, it should get checked, right?
I'm feeling much less guilty about the formula. At the end of the day, the priority is getting her fed and happy, and if I have to do it again I won't start thinking that it's the end of breastfeeding. She's 4 weeks old today, and I've put so much work into this...I find myself getting more and more determined not to waste it! I really want to make this work, and if it's a matter of just sticking it out then I'll do it.
At the moment, thanks to youtube, I've started doing this thing where I compress my boob when she's drinking to help her get more milk, and it seems to be working...I'm not seeing so much sucking for ages without swallowing, and feeds are taking less time. She's still a little fussy after feeds but it's nothing like it was. I'm still getting pain in my nipples with the majority of feeds though, but thankfully the antibiotics I'm on are working on the mastitis!
I also went to my local sure start centre yesterday, because they have a baby cafe.
They were lovely and gave me lots of support, and I got the number of a women from the La Lache League who said I can ring her anytime, and she's willing to come over and help. I'm taking Poppy home to Wales to see my family this week, so we're going go solider on, but if nothing has improved by the time I'm back, I'm going to ask her to come over and help me with positioning/latch.I'm also going to take her to the baby clinic today and ask about tongue tie. There's a history of it on my husband's side, and I'm convinced the problem is with her sucking, and not positioning. I've had a look, and there's no obvious problem with her tongue to me...but if there's a family history, it should get checked, right?
TigerLady
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I'm glad this is helping, Zozo. Also, is your wife being careful about what she eats? Some babies will have a sensitivity to certain things. My DD has one to caffiene and I had to cut it all out. She is very fussy and unsettled if it is in my diet. Chocolate is another common problem for BFed babies.
PE's post made me think that compressions might work for your wife, too. Basically, if the flow gets slow and baby starts to get frustrated, your wife can gently squeeze her breast and it will squirt extra milk out. You have to squeeze pretty firmly, but not so much to hurt. Just a firm, slow squeeze, hold for a second or two, then release. Give baby a chance to swallow and repeat. Try to time it with the natural rythm of baby's suck.
PE -- it sounds like you are doing really well! I'm glad you found local support, that will make a world of difference. Keep at it and you WILL make this work.
Also, is your wife being careful about what she eats? Some babies will have a sensitivity to certain things. My DD has one to caffiene and I had to cut it all out. She is very fussy and unsettled if it is in my diet. Chocolate is another common problem for BFed babies. PE's post made me think that compressions might work for your wife, too. Basically, if the flow gets slow and baby starts to get frustrated, your wife can gently squeeze her breast and it will squirt extra milk out. You have to squeeze pretty firmly, but not so much to hurt. Just a firm, slow squeeze, hold for a second or two, then release. Give baby a chance to swallow and repeat. Try to time it with the natural rythm of baby's suck.
PE -- it sounds like you are doing really well! I'm glad you found local support, that will make a world of difference. Keep at it and you WILL make this work.
Piperette
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I was wondering if someone can please help. I am breast feeding, but have noticed that recently LO started to fuss a bit at the breast. He drinks for a few minutes (maybe 5 max) and then starts pushing the nipple out with his tongue. I wind him inbetween, but he doesn't gp back on the breast again after, maybe only for 2-3 more sucks.
I have given him a bottle of EBM earlier (140ml), which he drank. It took him about 10 minutes to empty it without any fussing. When I feed him during the night, he seems to feed easier and with less resistance (approx 10 minutes).
Having done some reading up recently, I believe that I have a forceful let-down, which I suppose would explain his behaviour.
What can I do to make daytime feeds easier?
How many times a day (and night) and how long for is "normal" for a baby to feed at his age? I know all babies are different, but if I can get a rough idea.
Thanks for your help. I would happily accept the help of a BF Champion.
CocoaOne, he has always been a bit fussy at the breast, but would drink. I think he drinks more when he gets a bottle of EBM than from the breast though, always has.
I have been thinking about the 12 week growth spurt or he might be entering the distractable phase as he keeps looking around. It has probably been a week or two now where he fusses that much.
Also, when we went to a class today, there was a baby that was getting unsettled and needed a feed. She was BF'ed without any problem. I usually struggle to get him to latch on or even pay an interest in the boob when he is like this. He will even fight the bottle of EBM for a short time in that state, but will eventually take it, whereas with the boob, he just refuses point blank. The only time he easily latches on and drinks is at night and when he has just woken up. I would really appreciate any suggestions on how to make this a bit easier for both of us.
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